2019 O-line discussion

[Krangodnzr]

I think 30 is fair. I don't believe that they are better than that when considering talent and health. If Cole develops, they can be better. If Humphries stays healthy, they can be better. Pugh...the same. Gilbert...the same. Kyler being mobile could make them better. Hell, if Kugler can be a better coach, they can be better.

BUT, you can't ignore all of these "ifs". They are a terrible unit until they show me they are something different.

Lots of ifs dont often workout in the NFL, but when they do, things seem to come together for teams.

This is the road to the Cardinals being good this year, the OL becomes a competent one.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It feels like this topic has been ongoing since I started posting on ASFN over 10 years ago.

At this point....goodness only knows what a good/great/successful offensive line looks like.

One year a line will look good, next year it could be in shambles.

The current situation for the Cardinals is summed up with one word: Injuries

Yes, it can be said for all teams, but history dictates the Cardinals, at least it seems, have a higher than normal risk.

Relative to the Cardinals, I do like the idea that the top 8 linemen are

Humphries
Pugh
Shipley
Sweezy
Gilbert
Harrison
Garcia
Cole

Yes. Of course, I would prefer 8 All-pros, but for what it is, I see this group as an improvement from last year.

I think the smart move with Garcia is to put him on the PUP list for the 1st, ?6 weeks?.

I would allow for the Cardinals to stash two younger players on the final 53, and see what the situation when the PUP time is up.


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[Solar7]

It feels like this topic has been ongoing since I started posting on ASFN over 10 years ago.

At this point....goodness only knows what a good/great/successful offensive line looks like.

One year a line will look good, next year it could be in shambles.

The current situation for the Cardinals is summed up with one word: Injuries

Yes, it can be said for all teams, but history dictates the Cardinals, at least it seems, have a higher than normal risk.

Relative to the Cardinals, I do like the idea that the top 8 linemen are

Humphries
Pugh
Shipley
Sweezy
Gilbert
Harrison
Garcia
Cole

Yes. Of course, I would prefer 8 All-pros, but for what it is, I see this group as an improvement from last year.

I think the smart move with Garcia is to put him on the PUP list for the 1st, ?6 weeks?.

I would allow for the Cardinals to stash two younger players on the final 53, and see what the situation when the PUP time is up.


Sent from my mystical communication warp drive device thingy

Are we just to the point now where Cole is backup tier only?

Meaning outside of Christian Kirk, last year's draft was essentially pointless and we shouldn't have bothered?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Feeling a little less optimistic about 2019 after reading the last couple of pages. However, we weren't going to win it all this year in any event.

On offense, the most important goals this year have to be:

1. K2 implementing and refining his scheme.
2. Keeping Murray and DJ healthy.
3. Coaching up the rookie WRs.
4. Determining if any of the current o-line have long-term potential.

Then in 2020, after upgrading the o-line, we come out guns blazing, and take the division back from the Rams.

 

[PACardsFan]

Other than excessive injuries, I believe the greatest component to a great OL is coaching. It remains to be seen if it comes to fruition, but Kugler impresses me. He may be the single biggest O-Line improvement from last year. KM will also make this O-Line look better.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Feeling a little less optimistic about 2019 after reading the last couple of pages. However, we weren't going to win it all this year in any event.

On offense, the most important goals this year have to be:

1. K2 implementing and refining his scheme.
2. Keeping Murray and DJ healthy.
3. Coaching up the rookie WRs.
4. Determining if any of the current o-line have long-term potential.

Then in 2020, after upgrading the o-line, we come out guns blazing, and take the division back from the Rams.

Look at the Cardinals lines for the 2008, 2009, 2015 seasons. Not great lines.

My issue is that the Cardinals continually fail to identify young OL to develop. Paying free agent guards $8 million as free agents is a great way to screw up your salary cap.

 

[AZCrazy]

They are nothing until they show better, as stated previously. Predicting next season's line effectiveness based on last year's struggles is foolish though. There isn't one player who started on the O Line to finish last season that will start this year off.

maybeeee Cole. He's got to face down the injured starter he replaced in Shipley, and Gaillard, who apparently is a raging bull in camp.


HC changed, OC changed, OL coach changed, system changed, QB changed, etc... If they avoid injury, they'll be fine. If not, we have better depth this year anyway. Injuries are a part of every team's season, but in the years that the Cardinals have done exceptionally badly (2012, 2018) they suffered unusual amounts of line injuries, as in all of their starters gone.

I think we'll improve to a middling team this year, and hopefully take the leap next year 2020.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Look at the Cardinals lines for the 2008, 2009, 2015 seasons. Not great lines.

My issue is that the Cardinals continually fail to identify young OL to develop. Paying free agent guards $8 million as free agents is a great way to screw up your salary cap.

Man that line from 2008 is my all time favorite.

LT - Mike "no name" Gandy
LG - Reggie "big butt" Wells
C - Lyle "Rugby hates me" Sendlein
RG - Deuce "Deuce!!" Lutui
RT - Levi "they drafted me instead of AP" Brown

I think they started like 20 straight games together or something crazy like that? That was the key.

Lunch pail, try-hard journeyman, each and every one of them.

But they kept Warner upright enough for him to carve up ATL, CAR and PHI. And I'll be damned if they didn't have us two minutes from a super-bowl victory.

 

[JeffGollin]

It's hard to accurately rate any Cardinal player at any position, based on last year's performance because of the pall cast over the entire team by Wilks. He had the entire team trying to fight its way through a dense fog.

Addition by subtraction was never truer.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

C - Lyle "Rugby hates me" Sendlein

I am humbled and honored by that nickname. Guy had blackmail photos of Russ Grimm I am sure of it

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[RugbyMuffin]

maybeeee Cole. He's got to face down the injured started he replaced in Shipley, and Gaillard.

I agree, to be a starter, Cole has to out compete those two. As for depth, Mason Cole is going to have a roster spot, and be on the active 45.

His value is he can play anywhere on the line, and has proven reliability, both in skill and availability.



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[RugbyMuffin]

Are we just to the point now where Cole is backup tier only?

Meaning outside of Christian Kirk, last year's draft was essentially pointless and we shouldn't have bothered?

Cunningham, Cole, and Edmonds seem to have some value.

The complete debacle of the Rosen situation has been well documented and debated to death and dust.

If Cunningham can stick, and Cole is the utility man he has been touted as, its not THAT bad. There have been far worse drafts as of late.

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[Solar7]

Cunningham, Cole, and Edmonds seem to have some value.

The complete debacle of the Rosen situation has been well documented and debated to death and dust.

If Cunningham can stick, and Cole is the utility man he has been touted as, its not THAT bad. There have been far worse drafts as of late.

Sent from my mystical communication warp drive device thingy

You don't win in the NFL by plucking one singular starter in the draft from a year ago on the worst team in the league.

Especially not when you needed to draft three guys at his position the next year anyways.

If Cole doesn't start this year, Keim should be fired. I mean, he already should have. I'm in a bad mood today, but man, the levels of ineptitude to blow this many drafts in a row...

 

[Garthshort]

SK bounced back big time with this year's draft. Granted, we had the #1 pick, and that got us the best player in the Draft. We, in time, will end up with the following draftees who will contribute:
1.Murray
2.Murphy
3.Isabella
4.Allen
Plus, I have hopes that a couple more will make it. Probably, two or three more.

"Happy Days Are Here Again!"

 

[Stout]

SK bounced back big time with this year's draft. Granted, we had the #1 pick, and that got us the best player in the Draft. We, in time, will end up with the following draftees who will contribute:
1.Murray
2.Murphy
3.Isabella
4.Allen
Plus, I have hopes that a couple more will make it. Probably, two or three more.

"Happy Days Are Here Again!"

We hope and pray, but cannot know.

 

[Solar7]

We hope and pray, but cannot know.

Yeah, I don't think anyone was mad with the draft last year or anticipating that we'd get exactly one starter out of it at this time last year.

 

[Ronin]

Johnny Kinsley (@Brickwallblitz)
9/19/19, 4:06 PM
Pressures Allowed Per Dropback Through Wk 2:

SF: .07
DAL: .13
NE: .15
KC, NYG, PIT: .18
BAL, CIN, OAK, PHI: .21
CAR: .22
DEN, WAS: .23
IND: .25
ARI, ATL, NYJ: .26
CLE, JAX, NO: .29
BUF, LAR: .30
SEA: .31
DET: .32
CHI, GB: .33
LAC: .36
TB: .39
TEN: .43
HOU: .48
MIN: .49
MIA: .52

 

[Ronin]

Johnny Kinsley (@Brickwallblitz)
9/19/19, 4:08 PM
For context here's Team Dropbacks through Week 2:

ARI: 103
CIN: 100
ATL: 96
CAR, NYG: 95
PHI: 90
DEN, MIA, PIT: 83
BUF, CLE: 82
WAS: 81
NO: 80
KC: 79
CHI, DET: 78
JAX, NYJ: 77
LAC: 74
GB, HOU, LAR: 73
BAL: 72
OAK, TB: 70
NE: 67
IND, SEA: 64
DAL, TEN: 63
SF: 54
MIN: 47

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I said it from the beginning, Kingsbury's system has had exactly one guy drafted from the oline and it was like the 7th round. Despite that, he routinely was tops in the country in offense despite being at a huge recruiting disadvantage.

This alone is why his system is the future of the NFL. Being in the shotgun most of the time mitigates a bad line.

 

[AZCrazy]

However, it also eliminates large portions of your running game. Not nearly as many options for handoffs when you're starting five yards deep.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

However, it also eliminates large portions of your running game. Not nearly as many options for handoffs when you're starting five yards deep.

I am not sure that is true. We ran the ball fine week 1

 

[CardNots]

Johnny Kinsley (@Brickwallblitz)
9/19/19, 4:08 PM
For context here's Team Dropbacks through Week 2:

ARI: 103
CIN: 100
ATL: 96
CAR, NYG: 95
PHI: 90
DEN, MIA, PIT: 83
BUF, CLE: 82
WAS: 81
NO: 80
KC: 79
CHI, DET: 78
JAX, NYJ: 77
LAC: 74
GB, HOU, LAR: 73
BAL: 72
OAK, TB: 70
NE: 67
IND, SEA: 64
DAL, TEN: 63
SF: 54
MIN: 47

Certainly paints a different picture than the crap thrown on the wall, facts suck...

 

[Ronin]

Kyle Odegard (@Kyle_Odegard)
9/24/19, 10:50 AM
A.Q. Shipley has won his pass-blocking matchups 97% of the time this season, which is second-best among NFL centers, per ESPN.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Max Starks had some good insight into what he thinks is wrong with DJ.

He said that DJ is likely playing tentatively because every snap hes looking at the blocking scheme and wondering how the line in front of him is going to win and what he is going to have to do to make the play successful.

The lack of 11 personnel is killing the offense from a run game perspective.

 

[kerouac9]

Max Starks had some good insight into what he thinks is wrong with DJ.

He said that DJ is likely playing tentatively because every snap hes looking at the blocking scheme and wondering how the line in front of him is going to win and what he is going to have to do to make the play successful.

The lack of 11 personnel is killing the offense from a run game perspective.

So a tight end would make the difference for David Johnson? That doesn't make much sense to me.

When the offense goes 4WR, we should still have a numbers advantage on one side of the center or the other. You can pull a guard and then have 4 OL on one side of the center.

Even when you're balanced, the read option is supposed to freeze the outside defender and ensure that you have a numbers advantage on that side.

I just don't think we're doing a good enough job of getting DJ into open space in the run game. We're not running up the back of the center anymore (Thank goodness), but the memories I have of DJ at his best was a lot of off-tackle stuff where he planted his foot and accelerated.

Here's his rush chart from last week. These zone-read runs force him to the inside most of the time.

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