2019 O-line discussion

[Solar7]

It's not a crazy proposition though. The teams who have introduced Air Raid concepts (Chiefs, Patriots, Eagles, and Bears) have had a lot of success.

I think you might see more of 285 passing yards, 85 rush yard type games.

If Murray is successful (keyword is IF, dont get all crazy about this statement) he will be one of the hardest players in the NFL to defend. That's why drafting him number one overall makes sense to so many of us. I liked Q Williams and to a lesser extent Bosa, but neither of them could come remotely close to the impact that Murray could potentially create.

But like I said in another thread, boom or bust. Nothing in between. The ultimate gamble on coach and player. And there my friend, is a reason to be excited.

I'm from Vegas. I can't stand "ultimate gambles." That's what I constantly see from people who ruin their lives here, haha.

I'm way more of a "hedge my bets, go with the safe play" kind of person. That doesn't mean you don't occasionally take your shots at something, but still.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm from Vegas. I can't stand "ultimate gambles." That's what I constantly see from people who ruin their lives here, haha.

I'm way more of a "hedge my bets, go with the safe play" kind of person. That doesn't mean you don't occasionally take your shots at something, but still.

Safe plays are the route to mediocrity in sports.

Just last night a team won the NBA title by making a crazy bet on Kawhi Leonard. They traded a really good all star for a guy with one year left on his contract. And now Toronto has an NBA title before Phoenix does.

 

[Solar7]

Safe plays are the route to mediocrity in sports.

Just last night a team won the NBA title by making a crazy bet on Kawhi Leonard. They traded a really good all star for a guy with one year left on his contract. And now Toronto has an NBA title before Phoenix does.

That wasn't a wild desperation play. There's a difference between going "All-In" on a proven player with experience like Kawhi, or spending big on proven players like Golden State, than saying "**** it, we're gonna disregard all conventional wisdom and just throw a hail mary."

I guess safe isn't really what I mean, I mean manageable risks. Signing KK? Super risky, but manageable. Signing KK and Kyler, all while giving up what we did? That's a Hail Mary, 100% boom-or-bust kind of thing.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That wasn't a wild desperation play. There's a difference between going "All-In" on a proven player with experience like Kawhi, or spending big on proven players like Golden State, than saying "**** it, we're gonna disregard all conventional wisdom and just throw a hail mary."

I guess safe isn't really what I mean, I mean manageable risks. Signing KK? Super risky, but manageable. Signing KK and Kyler, all while giving up what we did? That's a Hail Mary, 100% boom-or-bust kind of thing.

Desperation? Wild?

In your eyes.

Not in mine. Murray had perhaps, the best season any college QB has ever had. Any it's not like hes Case Keenum who lacks any elite traits.

And what The Raptors did is a huge gamble. They literally have been one of the top 3 teams in east over the past 3-5 years. If they didnt win the title and he moved on, they likely become a lottery team or 8 seed. Getting elite talent in basketball is rough.

 

[Solar7]

Desperation? Wild?

In your eyes.

Not in mine. Murray had perhaps, the best season any college QB has ever had. Any it's not like hes Case Keenum who lacks any elite traits.

And what The Raptors did is a huge gamble. They literally have been one of the top 3 teams in east over the past 3-5 years. If they didnt win the title and he moved on, they likely become a lottery team or 8 seed. Getting elite talent in basketball is rough.

For all of the "best season any college QB has ever had" talk, he sure wasn't considered even a first rounder until damn late in the process, and teams sure weren't clamoring to come up and get him.

His ranking for most of the talking heads was not the consensus #1 overall player talent-wise, not even the best QB on all boards. If Kliff wasn't stiff for K1, you have to wonder where he gets drafted.

I doubt Kyler would have been our QB if USC held Kingsbury to his contract and we had to look elsewhere.

 

[kerouac9]

For all of the "best season any college QB has ever had" talk, he sure wasn't considered even a first rounder until damn late in the process, and teams sure weren't clamoring to come up and get him.

His ranking for most of the talking heads was not the consensus #1 overall player talent-wise, not even the best QB on all boards. If Kliff wasn't stiff for K1, you have to wonder where he gets drafted.

I doubt Kyler would have been our QB if USC held Kingsbury to his contract and we had to look elsewhere.

Welp. I'm ready to unsubscribe to this thread. There's no reason to re-litigate this with the same tired arguments.

FWIW, I don't think the Leonard and Murray situations are comperable. Toronto had a roster that couldn't take them to a championship, so they took a risk to get them over the top. It reminded me of when the Bucs traded 1st- and 2nd round picks for Jon Gruden. For Toronto, they'd be in the same position if they were an 8-seed and getting bounced out of the playoffs by better teams.

There isn't much precedent for lashing together a QB and a coach like this. I guess Carson Palmer and Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but Palmer was a more traditional prospect and Lewis a more NFL proven head coach.

 

[Solar7]

Welp. I'm ready to unsubscribe to this thread. There's no reason to re-litigate this with the same tired arguments.

FWIW, I don't think the Leonard and Murray situations are comperable. Toronto had a roster that couldn't take them to a championship, so they took a risk to get them over the top. It reminded me of when the Bucs traded 1st- and 2nd round picks for Jon Gruden. For Toronto, they'd be in the same position if they were an 8-seed and getting bounced out of the playoffs by better teams.

There isn't much precedent for lashing together a QB and a coach like this. I guess Carson Palmer and Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but Palmer was a more traditional prospect and Lewis a more NFL proven head coach.

Yeah, sorry, I agree with you. Just trying to soak up time at the office today. There's NOTHING going on. I wanna scream, haha. Agreed with you on all points.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Welp. I'm ready to unsubscribe to this thread. There's no reason to re-litigate this with the same tired arguments.

FWIW, I don't think the Leonard and Murray situations are comperable. Toronto had a roster that couldn't take them to a championship, so they took a risk to get them over the top. It reminded me of when the Bucs traded 1st- and 2nd round picks for Jon Gruden. For Toronto, they'd be in the same position if they were an 8-seed and getting bounced out of the playoffs by better teams.

There isn't much precedent for lashing together a QB and a coach like this. I guess Carson Palmer and Marvin Lewis comes to mind, but Palmer was a more traditional prospect and Lewis a more NFL proven head coach.

But Toronto DID have a championship roster. Kawhi is a great player, but Toronto has really depth throughout there roster.

My point is that sometimes there is a player that you think can take your team to the next level, and IMO Murray is that type of player.

 

[Veer]

It isn't that much of a risk considering we were dead last. KK is a great offensive mind, and the NFL is all about offense. The likes of Reid, McVay and the GOAT himself BB ask KK for his opinion on offense and schemes.

We didn't give up a lot for Kyler. We didn't give up another pick or any future picks. We earned him because we sucked so bad. The hype around him and his size got so out of hand that people forgot about his greatness on the field. KM and KK are a perfect match. In the end it's just one pick and we took the most talented QB when we didn't have an established one.

If Rosen had at least shown glimpses of greatness, we could've overthought the Murray selection. But Rosen can only dream of the talent Murray has. Darnold has shown glimpses, even Josh Allen who can't hit the broad side of a barn made made plays for his team. Neither had a good OL or good weapons. We cut ties early on Rosen and so be it. We wouldn't even get a 6th for Nkemdiche right now, for Reddick probably a 5th at best. Sunk cost is something all franchises have to live with. Actually I think the perennial winning franchises are smarter in cutting their losses sooner rather than later.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

So much for the offensive line talk.

Can't we just pin a Murray debate thread.


..... I am not a big supporter of the direction of the team but I am over it. It is what it is, and while the QB is important, there are other issues on the table.

I don't care if your QB is 5'5" and 140lbs or 6'10" 290lbs. You do not need them taking a lot of hits, and this offensive line has all sorts of things going on. Too bad.....

Sent from my mystical communication warp drive device thingy

 

[kerouac9]

But Toronto DID have a championship roster. Kawhi is a great player, but Toronto has really depth throughout there roster.

My point is that sometimes there is a player that you think can take your team to the next level, and IMO Murray is that type of player.

Except they hadn't gotten anywhere near a championship without Leonard. IN the last 5 years, they'd lost in the first-round twice, in the semis twice, and once made the Eastern Conference Finals and got unceremoniously bounced by LeBron.

It's hard to legitimately argue that this was a championship roster at the beginning of the year with the Celtics, Bucks and Sixers rising up, even with Lebron gone. They got swept by the Lebrons last year.

 

[Ronin]

The raptors also brought in a new coach.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

For all of the "best season any college QB has ever had" talk, he sure wasn't considered even a first rounder until damn late in the process, and teams sure weren't clamoring to come up and get him.

His ranking for most of the talking heads was not the consensus #1 overall player talent-wise, not even the best QB on all boards. If Kliff wasn't stiff for K1, you have to wonder where he gets drafted.

I doubt Kyler would have been our QB if USC held Kingsbury to his contract and we had to look elsewhere.

I think a big reason that K1 wasn't more hyped coming out of college is that he was only in the spotlight for a relatively short amount of time.

In other words, he didn't have time to get on everybody's radar, or for the hype machine around him to really get cranked up.

Heck, people weren't even talking seriously about him playing pro football until like the seventh or eighth game in his 2018 season.

But I could be wrong, and it's all a moot point now anyway.

Back to discussing Marcus Gilbert's prospects at Right Tackle!

He of course has the tie to our current OL coach Kugler, which is cool, but I didn't know he was suspended in 2017 for PEDs (not cool).

My question is, can he out perform Joe Barksdale and Will Holden, who both started for us at RT last year? Maybe?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Except they hadn't gotten anywhere near a championship without Leonard. IN the last 5 years, they'd lost in the first-round twice, in the semis twice, and once made the Eastern Conference Finals and got unceremoniously bounced by LeBron.

It's hard to legitimately argue that this was a championship roster at the beginning of the year with the Celtics, Bucks and Sixers rising up, even with Lebron gone. They got swept by the Lebrons last year.

Because they're game wasnt well suited for the playoffs, and at the end of the day, stars have more effect in the NBA more than any other sport.....kind of like....adding a dynamic superstar QB to replace a moderately ok one.

 

[kerouac9]

Because they're game wasnt well suited for the playoffs, and at the end of the day, stars have more effect in the NBA more than any other sport.....kind of like....adding a dynamic superstar QB to replace a moderately ok one.

So did the Raptors have a Championship roster before Leonard was added, or not?

 

[GuernseyCard]

Because they're game wasnt well suited for the playoffs, and at the end of the day, stars have more effect in the NBA more than any other sport.....kind of like....adding a dynamic superstar QB to replace a moderately ok one.

So did the Raptors have a Championship roster before Leonard was added, or not?

Without LeBron in the east, arguably - yes. They came into the season after 59 wins, added K... and Gasol, later.

 

[Krangodnzr]

So did the Raptors have a Championship roster before Leonard was added, or not?

No, because the NBA requires stars to win a championship 19/20 times.

DeMar Derozen and Kyle Lowry are stars....Kawhi Leonard is a Star. The roster has a great mix of role players, but lacked a true talent who can put them over the top, even though they were/are clearly one of the five best teams in the NBA.

 

[kerouac9]

But Toronto DID have a championship roster. Kawhi is a great player, but Toronto has really depth throughout there roster.

My point is that sometimes there is a player that you think can take your team to the next level, and IMO Murray is that type of player.

No, because the NBA requires stars to win a championship 19/20 times.

DeMar Derozen and Kyle Lowry are stars....Kawhi Leonard is a Star. The roster has a great mix of role players, but lacked a true talent who can put them over the top, even though they were/are clearly one of the five best teams in the NBA.

Very strange mind you have there.

 

[Goldfield]

Not to mention, you called KK an "offensive genius." Guy has never called an NFL play. We don't know what he is.

Troll

 

[Krangodnzr]

Very strange mind you have there.

I think you are missing the point. Outside of the Detroit Pistons, the NBA requires a superstar or two to win a title. Without the superstar, the Raptors didnt have a real, legit shot.

At the beginning of the year, they had three guys at PG. That's very nice depth. Multiple good big men too.

There is no contradiction in these statements. And my comparison is that they took a big gamble, because if Leonard walks, they will require a rebuild. Murray is a big gamble, but I like our chances with him because of his personal characteristics, which the players on the team are confirming by their statements.

 

[Solar7]

Troll

How is that trolling? Do you call Steve Spurrier an offensive genius? Chip Kelly? Both ran innovative college offenses that were not NFL ready. Both actually won at the college level too, unlike KK. Again, just because I see trends that make me express serious doubt and refuse to just accept that KK is an offensive "genius" when he hasn't called a single NFL play, doesn't make me someone here intentionally trying to rile people up or make them feel bad.

 

[kerouac9]

I think you are missing the point. Outside of the Detroit Pistons, the NBA requires a superstar or two to win a title. Without the superstar, the Raptors didnt have a real, legit shot.

At the beginning of the year, they had three guys at PG. That's very nice depth. Multiple good big men too.

There is no contradiction in these statements. And my comparison is that they took a big gamble, because if Leonard walks, they will require a rebuild. Murray is a big gamble, but I like our chances with him because of his personal characteristics, which the players on the team are confirming by their statements.

Whatever Krang.

 

[JeffGollin]

For a reasoned & objective take on Murray and other Cardinal newcomers, check out Darren Urban's latest piece on Cardinal players and roster-positions at the completion of OTA's and minicamps.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

For a reasoned & objective take on Murray and other Cardinal newcomers, check out Darren Urban's latest piece on Cardinal players and roster-positions at the completion of OTA's and minicamps.

https://www.azcardinals.com/news/top-takeaways-from-the-cardinals-2019-offseason

 

[Krangodnzr]

How is that trolling? Do you call Steve Spurrier an offensive genius? Chip Kelly? Both ran innovative college offenses that were not NFL ready. Both actually won at the college level too, unlike KK. Again, just because I see trends that make me express serious doubt and refuse to just accept that KK is an offensive "genius" when he hasn't called a single NFL play, doesn't make me someone here intentionally trying to rile people up or make them feel bad.

I do call Spurrier and Kelly offensive geniuses. They were undone by other factors more than anything.

Spurrier surrounded himself with alot of college coaches and wouldnt adapt his protection schemes for the NFL level. He was undermined by Snyder and his personnel control.

Kelly was given too much power too quickly. His schemes are great, but not really suited for the NFL because they lack complexity to a degree.

The Air Raid is really a descendant of the west coast offense to a degree.

Like I said, Reid calls Kingsbury for advice. Reid is probably the best offensive mind in the NFL. I trust the best offensive mind in the NFL if he thinks someone knows offense.

Your negative Nancy attitude on every point is tiresome. There are very legitimate issues about this team...the offensive line has worrisome injury issues, the defensive line is relying to much on young depth, same with wide receiver, and Patrick Peterson's suspension comes at a time when there are winnable games.

And yet you get your panties twisted over someone calling Kingsbury an offensive genius.