2023 Phoenix Suns Offseason

[Yuma]

64 wins, franchise record, is regressing? One bad playoff run, in the teams second postseason run, isn't regressing, sorry but that's ridiculous. According to you they had all sorts of luck to get to the finals so I guess they just didn't get lucky again and were eliminated in the second round, by an inferior team, but I'd guess if they were lucky the year before and exceeded expectations then second round seems about right, right? But this years team didnt regress? Lol now that's funny. About what I expect from the guy who continually brings up "highest scoring duo this postseason" which they're barely holding onto, BTW. Denver's duo is scoring like 1-2 ppg less a game. I'm sure Jamal and Jokic are jealous of that though. Who are you trying to convince, yourself or someone else? Because no one else is buying.

What? We didn't have 64 wins this season?

 

[Yuma]

Conjecture is simply that. I can't see Ishbia not matching an offer for Cam Johnson as a RFA.

Also, let's not forget Cam Johnson could have been signed and traded... maybe for a point guard?

Let's hope the Suns can restock their roster by trading/waiving/stretching Chris Paul. The Suns don't even have a first round pick.

The Suns are almost forced to trade Ayton to restock their roster.

Again, you can't say Ishbia would have matched Cam Johnson, when Ishbia traded him. If Ishbia thought Bridges and Cam Johnson > KD, that trade doesn't get made.

 

[Hoop Head]

Something to consider with the Durant trade was how many more seasons of fading out in the playoffs were the Suns willing to take? I know that they fizzled again after the trade, but that is kind of immaterial. It's obvious that the Durant trade was made (for good or bad) in an attempt to evince another disappointing ending to the season. And I am relatively certain that standing pat with the same roster would have had the same result.

Now I am not saying the deal they made for Durant is above criticism. Trading all the draft choices, for example, seems on the face of it potentially egregious. But I get why Ishbia felt like they had to do something to shake things up. The team as it had been configured was never going to win, and seemed destined to only get further from that objective over time. Whether that was due to Paul hitting the wall, Monty's post season incompetence, Ayton's disappearing act, or some combination of all three (most likely), continuing with the same roster was a failing proposition.

And I don't believe little bits of tinkering, like trading for some extra supporting bench help or something similar that I see people suggesting would have made a bit of difference. Any deal they made that would have actually improved the team would have had to be for top tier talent... and that meant at a minimum, moving Bridges because he was the only piece they have that could potentially bring a difference maker in return. And for a real difference maker, that likely meant moving Johnson, as well. So it really is academic to lament losing one or both of them, in my mind.

Again, I'm not wholesale defending the trade they ended up making because they probably did give up too much with the included draft picks. But I really don't see any way they could have avoided trading Bridges and/or Johnson and actually improved their championship chances.

The only tinkering that needed to be done was replace CP3 with someone closer in age to our core so we could continue to grow and compete. Not one of the core players (Book, Ayton, Mikal, and Cam J) had hit their prime yet. NBA players typically hit their peak around year 8-9 in their late 20's. Trading away 2 valuable young pieces for another NBA senior citizen who is closer to 40 than 30 isn't a recipe for a title, it never has been. See what Brooklyn did maybe a decade back when they traded for Paul Pierce and KG? They gifted Boston Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum plus much more over the years. Brooklyn rebuilt Boston more than made themselves contenders.

 

[Hoop Head]

HILARIOUS. Who are you convincing? It’s the same crowd repeating the same thing. You don’t win a title in the regular season last time I checked. Got bounced by an inferior team in the Mavs last time I checked. We were a few games over .500 before the trade If I recall (I could be wrong about that) and the team was regressing in several areas.

But yeah….the team was headed in the right direction. LOL.

Again, you don’t want the same response don’t repeat the same take the complain about someone repeating. It’s hypocritical.

"Don't win a title in the regular season" and then proceeds to mention regular season record as reason to blow team up. You can't be serious.

 

[Covert Rain]

"Don't win a title in the regular season" and then proceeds to mention regular season record as reason to blow team up. You can't be serious.

How dishonest is this post? I mentioned the playoffs multiple times but sure……cherry pick to fit your narrative.

 

[Germz249]

In the playoffs? Absolutely they regressed. Also, last season before the KD trade I think we were a few games over .500 and regressing in many areas I believe? I could be wrong. It’s all a blur.

Yea they started to regress in the playoffs. I am not sure what happened but I thought the regular season we did well. The playoffs that year was when their stock started dropping.

 

[Covert Rain]

Listen there are two camps here about the state of the team prior to the trade. You are not going to convince us that the team wasn’t headed in the wrong direction just like we are not going to convince those that think otherwise. So, I won’t repeat my rebuttal if people don’t repeat the same take. We should all move on. @Yuma is right. Nothing is going to change what has happened.

Regardless of our differences I completely believe Booker’s days were numbered without a major acquisition. It was well known that when Booker signed his extension he wanted a commitment from the team to try a put together a title team. I think that was part of the Suns decision to make a major trade and I think that is part of every move they are going to make from here on out.

 

[Yuma]

IDK, Like @Raindog said: "Whether that was due to Paul hitting the wall, Monty's post season incompetence, Ayton's disappearing act, or some combination of all three (most likely), continuing with the same roster was a failing proposition."

I think it was all three. We keep doing the same thing expecting different results is not logical.

We are changing the lineup, changing coaches. We'll see about Ayton.

 

[Phrazbit]

If I recall correctly the Suns were willing to resign him in the 66 Million dollar range. Sarver said he was willing to pay the luxury tax. He didn’t say he was willing to continue to grow the salary unfettered. They were saying that Cam J was going to cost the Suns upwards of 90 Million which drove speculation the Suns were not going to do it. I do recall that type of speculation that it put the Suns in a tough position.

That was with Sarver's penny pinching. No way Ishbia would have let him go in free agency.

 

[Covert Rain]

That was with Sarver's penny pinching. No way Ishbia would have let him go in free agency.

Isbia had no problem trading him so I am not convinced Ishbia felt he was a critical piece either. You could be right. I personally didn’t want the Suns to commit to him as our PF for 90 million. Had they been able to get him for 66 million and continue to play him off the bench? Hell yes. I loved Cam J almost as much as Bridges.

 

[Mainstreet]

Again, you can't say Ishbia would have matched Cam Johnson, when Ishbia traded him. If Ishbia thought Bridges and Cam Johnson > KD, that trade doesn't get made.

I know you miss the twins. Don't worry, I won't tell them.

 

[Yuma]

That was with Sarver's penny pinching. No way Ishbia would have let him go in free agency.

Again, they reason we know that's not true is Ishbia TRADED him before resigning him.

 

[sdscard4]

A stupid offense and defense. Monty ruined this team. We went from great defense and ball movement to 2 man offense. I don't know what happened to this team.

 

[Phrazbit]

Again, they reason we know that's not true is Ishbia TRADED him before resigning him.

... there is no logic behind that theory.

IF we had not traded him there is zero reason to believe Ishbia would have not resigned him. Every indication is that Ishbia is willing to spend.

 

[Raindog]

The only tinkering that needed to be done was replace CP3 with someone closer in age to our core so we could continue to grow and compete. Not one of the core players (Book, Ayton, Mikal, and Cam J) had hit their prime yet. NBA players typically hit their peak around year 8-9 in their late 20's. Trading away 2 valuable young pieces for another NBA senior citizen who is closer to 40 than 30 isn't a recipe for a title, it never has been. See what Brooklyn did maybe a decade back when they traded for Paul Pierce and KG? They gifted Boston Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum plus much more over the years. Brooklyn rebuilt Boston more than made themselves contenders.

A team built around Booker, Bridges, and Cam Johnson was not going to win an NBA championship. No matter how much more development the latter two might make... and I think they are both pretty much at their peak now. And I don't know how anyone can speculate on what Ayton will consistently amount to given what we've seen of him so far.

Sure, we would likely have had a consistent playoff team for the next few seasons... but first/second round fodder, at best. That team was not a championship contender once Chris Paul fell off. And I am not sure who you might be replacing him with that would have the same impact he had before he broke down, or how we would get that player without having to move Bridges at a minimum to get them.

 

[Yuma]

... there is no logic behind that theory.

IF we had not traded him there is zero reason to believe Ishbia would have not resigned him. Every indication is that Ishbia is willing to spend.

There is logic. It's a FACT. LMAO. You can't prove something that doesn't happen.

 

[Phrazbit]

There is logic. It's a FACT. LMAO. You can't prove something that doesn't happen.

What is a fact?

That Ishbia would not have resigned Cam Johnson had the trade not happened? Because that is what we are debating.

That is certainly NOT a fact. It is a theory... and one that makes little sense.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What is a fact?

That Ishbia would not have resigned Cam Johnson had the trade no happened? Because that is what we are debating.

That is certainly NOT a fact. It is a theory... and one that makes little sense.

It's especially confusing because it seems like the point you were originally arguing against was this notion that trading him was no big deal because we weren't going to be ABLE to sign him. We certainly could have signed him, it would have hit us far less than what we did so money really wasn't the only issue. It's fair to say that had Sarver stayed though, we might not have been willing to pay him but that's a different story.

 

[Hoop Head]

A team built around Booker, Bridges, and Cam Johnson was not going to win an NBA championship. No matter how much more development the latter two might make... and I think they are both pretty much at their peak now. And I don't know how anyone can speculate on what Ayton will consistently amount to given what we've seen of him so far.

Sure, we would likely have had a consistent playoff team for the next few seasons... but first/second round fodder, at best. That team was not a championship contender once Chris Paul fell off. And I am not sure who you might be replacing him with that would have the same impact he had before he broke down, or how we would get that player without having to move Bridges at a minimum to get them.

I disagree and I know I'm not alone. You can not say for certain it wouldn't happen. Look what Bridges is doing now. He's elevated his game and will most likely be in talks for an All-Star nod next season in Brooklyn. He was headed that direction here as well but Brooklyn making him the primary option definitely fast tracked it. That team wasn't expected to make the Finals the year before either and writing them off so soon is short sighted.

Look at the #3 and #4 guys on both Denver and Miami, I'd take Mikal and Cam over what Miami has and arguably over Gordon and MPJ also. That team could have been retooled in a number of ways to improve, whether Ayton was dealt or not.

There's many moves that could have been made and the Suns seemed locked on Durant when Durant has never won a title outside of Golden State and they've won with and without him. He's not the difference maker some sell him as. He was great but our window is slamming shut fast due to his age and injury history. Then what? Booker wants out? I'm not going to pretend I know but after seeing Paul fall off a cliff, the last thing this team should have done is traded for another player with maybe 2 years left at high level. We saw that story already with Paul.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's especially confusing because it seems like the point you were originally arguing against was this notion that trading him was no big deal because we weren't going to be ABLE to sign him. We certainly could have signed him, it would have hit us far less than what we did so money wasn't an issue. It's fair to say that had Sarver stayed, we might not have been willing to pay him but that's a different story.

Exactly. If Sarver was still here, odds are the Cam Johnson situation is very dicey. To keep him he probably would have demanded we dump payroll from some where else.

With Ishbia there is no reason to think he wouldn't have spent them money... especially as it's almost impossible to imagine a Cam extension making our cap situation worse than the one we are currently dealing with.

 

[Covert Rain]

A team built around Booker, Bridges, and Cam Johnson was not going to win an NBA championship. No matter how much more development the latter two might make... and I think they are both pretty much at their peak now. And I don't know how anyone can speculate on what Ayton will consistently amount to given what we've seen of him so far.

Sure, we would likely have had a consistent playoff team for the next few seasons... but first/second round fodder, at best. That team was not a championship contender once Chris Paul fell off. And I am not sure who you might be replacing him with that would have the same impact he had before he broke down, or how we would get that player without having to move Bridges at a minimum to get them.

Yep and many of us are with you on this.

 

[Phrazbit]

A team built around Booker, Bridges, and Cam Johnson was not going to win an NBA championship. No matter how much more development the latter two might make... and I think they are both pretty much at their peak now. And I don't know how anyone can speculate on what Ayton will consistently amount to given what we've seen of him so far.

Sure, we would likely have had a consistent playoff team for the next few seasons... but first/second round fodder, at best. That team was not a championship contender once Chris Paul fell off. And I am not sure who you might be replacing him with that would have the same impact he had before he broke down, or how we would get that player without having to move Bridges at a minimum to get them.

That team isn't set in stone, lots of ability to improve that roster.

And, IMO, it's odds are just as good as our current odds.

 

[AzStevenCal]

A team built around Booker, Bridges, and Cam Johnson was not going to win an NBA championship. No matter how much more development the latter two might make... and I think they are both pretty much at their peak now. And I don't know how anyone can speculate on what Ayton will consistently amount to given what we've seen of him so far.

Sure, we would likely have had a consistent playoff team for the next few seasons... but first/second round fodder, at best. That team was not a championship contender once Chris Paul fell off. And I am not sure who you might be replacing him with that would have the same impact he had before he broke down, or how we would get that player without having to move Bridges at a minimum to get them.

I think Bridges and Booker are good enough to be part of your top 3 although ideally we'd need a number 1 playing with them. And I'm not sure CamJ can ever fill a top 3 role. I certainly never thought of him as that third piece or even Bridges as a second piece.

But getting rid of them because CP dropped off a cliff made no sense to me as that still left us with the same problem, a washed up Chris Paul instead of the impact player we needed. Even KD at his best isn't enough to replace Bridges, CamJ and star level CP3 and by including those picks we jeopardized our ability to fill those holes.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think Bridges and Booker are good enough to be part of your top 3 although ideally we'd need a number 1 playing with them. And I'm not sure CamJ can ever fill a top 3 role. I certainly never thought of him as that third piece or even Bridges as a second piece.

But getting rid of them because CP dropped off a cliff made no sense to me as that still left us with the same problem, a washed up Chris Paul instead of the impact player we needed. Even KD at his best isn't enough to replace Bridges, CamJ and star level CP3 and by including those picks we jeopardized our ability to fill those holes.

Many of us were clamoring the past couple seasons to get another PF/SG. Had they done that might have been enough. Had Monty gotten along with Crowder, that would have also been another potential piece off the bench. This team made a ton of mistakes and wasn’t aggressive. That certainly didn’t help the state of things today even post trade.

 

[Mainstreet]

That team isn't set in stone, lots of ability to improve that roster.

And, IMO, it's odds are just as good as our current odds.

This is what some don't take into consideration. There was so much room to improve the core without making the Durant trade.

Lots of talent would have been available this summer. Also, the Suns could have improved their roster last season without a major trade.

Now the Suns are like a poker player with only a few chips.