2024-2025 Around the NBA Thread
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Ben Simmons is the only thing keeping Ayton from running away with "never lived up to overall 1st pick" award of the last 10 years.
Suns_fan69
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That's Anthony Bennett erasure!
*edit - That was technically 11 years ago, so.... nothing to see here!
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elindholm
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Simmons and picks for Durant would be a no-brainer for me, but there would have to be a third team.
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Chaplin
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No Brainer is the appropriate term.
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This begs the question of why did the Suns trade for Durant in the first place if his value is saving money and acquiring draft picks.
The Suns had all that and more prior to the trade.
The trade value of Mikal Bridges was phenomenal in comparison.
Depends on the picks and what the 3rd team does. Definitely not a no brainier for me if you get back Simmons and junk picks. Then you basically get nothing in return.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
I think that's exactly the point Eric is making.
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I believe this is what Eric meant as well. It's just a position I wanted to reaffirm.
elindholm
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The Durant trade was a high-stakes gamble with a low probability of success. Some say it was worth the risk. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but that's water under the bridge now.
What's indisputable is that the gamble did not work. The trade cannot be undone, so the question is what to do now. Durant's contract is an albtaross and the player is a cancer. If the Suns can get any positive return on him, they should do it as soon as possible.
elindholm
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Right, it would have to be quality picks, for example several of the Suns' own that the Nets hold.
The Nets traded those picks to Houston. I think they still have 1, it might just be swap rights, but they dealt with Houston to get their own picks back that they gave up in the Harden trade.
The Rockets have been said to have interest in KD, or Booker, so it's definitely something the Suns need to inquire about. I also like some of their young talent like Jabari Smith, Alperun Sengun, and Tari Eason.
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Chaplin
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Ok, now this is ridiculous, how is Kevin Durant a "cancer"?
You don't like the trade, we know that. We even understand the financial reasons why you don't like it, but there is no evidence that one of the best players of all time is a cancer to our team. Honestly, you don't need to start throwing out that extreme position without evidence to prove the trade wasn't great, so why do it?
KD arrives and effort disappears. Doesn't seem like he's a leader, at all. He didn't lead in Brooklyn and was a cancer there with his ridiculous requests and demands. He came here and has set this franchise back as a whole. If you don't think he played a role in Beal's acquisition then that's ignoring who he's been the last few years. What good did that acquisition do? Sorry but he doesn't lose the cancer label simply because he's wearing a Suns jersey now.
People get all caught up in many of these picks and if you pay attention to the statistics around these picks the results are not so exciting. Ben Simmons is garbage. So, you want to trade a HOF who was one of the best players in the league last year, who you allege is a cancer, for an albatross and cancer in Ben Simmons?!?!? This makes zero sense.
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Chaplin
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He never claimed to be a leader. And if effort disappeared, how is that KD's fault?
KD has shown cancer like behavior in the past but not here. It may happen. However, to call him a cancer and argue about his "effort" when this team had so many problems not named KD (including coaching)?!? KD wasn't by any stretch the problem with this team. In fact, I think I had seen the opposite. I watched KD try to do too much which led to turnovers and things like that.
elindholm
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The alternative is to scapegoat Vogel, which everyone else seems more than happy to do.
Look carefully at the Lakers' 2019-20 roster, coached by Vogel, and ask how that team went 52-19 en route to a title. After James and Davis, their next three players in total minutes were Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Danny Green, and Kyle Kuzma. But Vogel and the two stars made it work.
Meawhile while the 2023-24 Suns were an embarrassment most of the season and won zero playoff games, with two stars of (allegedly) equal caliber, the same coach, and a supporting cast that certainly can't be considered any worse. That's all in Vogel's lap? Really?
We all saw the joy leave Booker's game last year. This board commented on it frequently. Last season was his least happy as a member of the Suns, and that includes the years in which the team was a league bottom-feeder.
The fans sure experienced it. Over and over, members of this board talked about how it was no fun to watch anymore. Morale is as low as I can ever remember. We all saw what happened when this "contending" roster got a chance to announce themselves to the league on Christmas Day.
For now, I'm willing to indulge the fantasy that Budenholzer will be the magician that Vogel wasn't. But I think "fantasy" is a good word for it. When the team fails again, will we finally recognize that the problem starts at the top of the roster?
Scapegoat Vogel?!?! He was terrible. Bad at making adjustments. Bad an the X's and O's. His schemes were awful. That is on Vogel's lap. What you can't blame Vogel for is the deal that put 2 SGs and KD on the same team for that amount of money and duck tape for the rest of the team. That is not on Vogel and it's not fair to pin that on him.
In terms of Booker, we have seen this a million times in sports. You win, people are happy. You lose they are not. Book is at a different point in his career now then we he was trying to prove he belonged in the league even on a bottom feeder team. His head space is about competing for titles now.
To me this biggest issue with this team was the roster construction. You need players that fit. You can't just throw a bunch of guys on a team with no consideration for how they fit together or impact your rotations. Roster Construction and coaching are way higher than anything KD allegedly did behind the scenes last year. Bud might not be able to do much either. That is definitely a possibility but IMO you took a big swing at removing coaching as the issue.
Really disappointing that the Suns have a no trade clause with Beal. He was the biggest disappointment IMO despite flashes.
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Because otherwise people might forget…
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Chaplin
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You mean like when we didn't draft Tyler Halifax?
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Who “alledges” that a Booker/KD pairing last season is of equal caliber to 2020 James (who was in the last year of his prime of being a top 3 player ever) and AD, who was actually healthy and the best big man in the game?
I think Vogel was a bad coach, but gets more flack than he deserves because a Book/KD combo ain’t close to 2020 LeBron/AD for a host of reasons. Both LeBron and AD could dominate on both ends of the court and LeBron at that point orchestrated every offense he plays on at an elite level. Booker/KD are both elite scorers and… that’s pretty much it. And it’s arguable if Booker is even an elite scorer as he’s only been top 5 in scoring once (I believe) in his entire career. Regardless, they do nothing else at an elite level, neither can effectively run an offense and both can be good defenders but don’t affect that side of the court anything like a dominant big man like AD did.
Which is part of the bigger problem you mention at the end of your post that was out of Vogel’s control and will still hamstring the team moving forward from having title aspirations. Their roster construction and lack of title level Alpha is almost impossible to overcome if they want to win a title. They don’t have that guy who can run the team at an elite level on the court and making matters worse, neither Booker nor KD are great leaders… it’s arguable they’re not even good leaders seeing as KD has been a cancer pretty much everywhere he’s gone and Booker’s team have a propensity to quit unlike any other good Suns team that I can ever remember.
You don't trade away half your starters and all available picks (at the time it was all 1st round picks we were able to trade) for close to a decade for a player that isn't going to lead you to a title. Lead the team, be a leader, whatever you want to call it. You don't win MVP, demand max money, demand franchises accommodate you by adding specific players at your request unless you're a leader. No one said he was a good leader but to say leadership isn't expected of him would be ignoring reality. Every other player that has his resume, or half of it, would call themselves a leader or accept that label. It's delusional to say it shouldn't be expected of him. That's been the main reason Barkley and KD have feuded in the press, Chuck questioned his ability to lead and KD took exception to it.
These players that are “Leaders” don’t grow on trees either. There is a ton of talent in the NBA but not everyone is a leader. There is a reason there is only handful of those guys even in the league. That’s why I will never fault the team for taking a swing to get it done with talent. Bridges, Cam or Ayton were not those players either. Never were going to be. You make a risky move sometimes you pay the price. You do nothing the ultimate outcome is the same. No titles.
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Yes, the Suns trade for Kevin Durant was a high-stakes gamble. I could have better lived with the trade if the Suns hadn't included Mikal Bridges in the deal. The biggest mistake the Suns made is overpaying for Durant.
The trade gives the appearance of being impulsive where new ownership wanted to make a splash and perhaps the GM wanting the same thing as well. I do think James Jones had been exploring such a trade all season. The question in my mind, would James Jones have stopped short of trading Mikal Bridges without a nudge from the owner.
IMO, the Suns need to be as careful trading Durant as they were imprudent in trading for him at the asking price. The Suns can't afford to compound mistakes. Now, if the Suns received an attractive trade offer for Durant, that's another matter. If the Suns received the right trade offer for him, I would probably do it.
I wish Bradley Beal didn't have a no trade clause because that's where I would look as well. If I were the Suns, I would still discreetly explore such options, especially if he is unwilling to come off the bench. This might be the better alternative and satisfy both parties. Still, it takes another team to show interest.
