6-8 million under the cap - wasted

[Russ Smith]

Thats why I suspect hes upset. he wants to see the money now since he was only a 3rd rounder he isnt makeing the BIG money yet.

No he'll still get the money now, it just won't ALL count on this years cap.

As AJ said if we gave him a 4 million bonus yesterday, we could have counted all 4 million on 2004 and been done with it. If we give him a 3 year contract today with a 4 million bonus, we can prorate the bonus over FOUR years, the 3 of the contract PLUS this year. So we would count it 1 million per year for cap purposes. But obviously if you have the room now, you'd rather NOT have that 1 million cap hit the next 3 years but we're too late for that.

It shouldn't impact the size of his bonus too much although it certainly could for the reason above, we might lower the bonus so the annual hit is slightly less.


What gets me is extending Ohalete, am I alone in thinking he's a VERY mediocre player? Went from starter to unable to make the team in Washington for Gibbs after they drafted Taylor. From what I've seen he's always out of position. To me he's the exact WRONG kind of safety to play with Adrian Wilson, you KNOW Wilson will be all over the place making plays, but also some mistakes. So your FS HAS to be a guy who sticks to his responsibilities you can't have a FS who is also out of position a lot or you're going to get some big plays allowed.

 

[Shane]

What gets me is extending Ohalete, am I alone in thinking he's a VERY mediocre player? Went from starter to unable to make the team in Washington for Gibbs after they drafted Taylor. From what I've seen he's always out of position. To me he's the exact WRONG kind of safety to play with Adrian Wilson, you KNOW Wilson will be all over the place making plays, but also some mistakes. So your FS HAS to be a guy who sticks to his responsibilities you can't have a FS who is also out of position a lot or you're going to get some big plays allowed.

I agree. Hmm sounds to me like you describing a guy named Dexter Jackaon who could fill that role perfectly.

 

[Rocco]

If they sign Wilson tomorrow, they can still use 2004 cap space. In fact, they'll have to make him fit under whatever cap remains. Here's the difference on a hypothetical 4 year deal with a four million dollars bonus and 500 k salary:

Pre November 8th:

We could've absorbed all 4 million dollar bonus on this year's cap, along with Wilson's salary. In future seasons, he would've counted only 500K against the cap. (This is bascially what we did with Shelton and Davis last year, we used much of that 10 mil to absorb their future bonuses.)

Post November 8th:

Under the same deal, Wilson's cap hit would now have to be the bonus divided by 4 (length of the deal) + his salary. So, that would be a hit of 1.5mil a season. I'm pretty sure that his future cap hit would be higher than that since this year is half over, so his deal would actually be spread over 3.5 years instead of 4.


It is a bit of a bummer they didn't extend Wilson, but at least they did something with that space pre November 8th. The guys they did extend, I'm sure they pushed all of their bonus onto the cap this year. I'd guess this was in the range of 2 mil, 3 mil tops. Now, in future seasons, those guys will only count as minimum salaries. So, they can be on the team next year with almost no increase in cap hit. It's not as sexy as a Wilson extension, but it is still better than the cap management this team used to do.

The way I understand it is that prior to Nov. 9, any signing bonus amount (guaranteed money) up to the full amount could have been treated as salary this year, on this year's cap. In other words, for a 4 million bonus, we could have treated up to 4 million of that amount as salary against this years cap, leaving only salary in the coming years. We also could have counted any amount less than the full 4 million bonus as a salary increase this year, say 2 million, and had the remaining 2 million count as bonus (prorated) money against the cap in coming seasons.

After Nov. 8, we have to prorate the bonus over the life of the contract. None of it can be treated as salary against this year's cap.

That's why it's important to get your high bonus guys signed. Getting low bonus guys signed now doesn't help up much in the coming years.

 

[WildBB]

No he'll still get the money now, it just won't ALL count on this years cap.

As AJ said if we gave him a 4 million bonus yesterday, we could have counted all 4 million on 2004 and been done with it. If we give him a 3 year contract today with a 4 million bonus, we can prorate the bonus over FOUR years, the 3 of the contract PLUS this year. So we would count it 1 million per year for cap purposes. But obviously if you have the room now, you'd rather NOT have that 1 million cap hit the next 3 years but we're too late for that.

It shouldn't impact the size of his bonus too much although it certainly could for the reason above, we might lower the bonus so the annual hit is slightly less.


What gets me is extending Ohalete, am I alone in thinking he's a VERY mediocre player? Went from starter to unable to make the team in Washington for Gibbs after they drafted Taylor. From what I've seen he's always out of position. To me he's the exact WRONG kind of safety to play with Adrian Wilson, you KNOW Wilson will be all over the place making plays, but also some mistakes. So your FS HAS to be a guy who sticks to his responsibilities you can't have a FS who is also out of position a lot or you're going to get some big plays allowed.

Yea Harry mentioned he's not at all impressed by his covering skills. That ays something. We gave up a few big ones against Miami.

The Wilson non-signing is disapointing to say the least. I don't know how they can come up with anything better now.

 

[Scott MS]

You guys make the assumption that agents are stupid. I would guess that Wilson's agent KNEW there was a strong desire to get this deal done by Nov. 9 and probably was sticking to a higher contract trying to use the deadline as leverage.

We don't know all the fact in this situation. The good news is that both sides now have more time to converge on a contract number.

This also applies to Boldin and others they are trying to re-sign.

Don't forget that Wilson and Boldin are looking for their "big contracts". They are currently underpaid for their level of performance. That's a tough contract to negotiate -- as tough as a 1st round draft pick.

Signing an older veteran like Emmitt who already has made $30+ million is easier.

 

[ajcardfan]

Yea Harry mentioned he's not at all impressed by his covering skills. That ays something. We gave up a few big ones against Miami.

The Wilson non-signing is disapointing to say the least. I don't know how they can come up with anything better now.

You're acting like he's already a free agent. Something can still get done. Hell, if they have to, they can even go the tag route if it comes down to it.

 

[ajcardfan]

The way I understand it is that prior to Nov. 9, any signing bonus amount (guaranteed money) up to the full amount could have been treated as salary this year, on this year's cap. In other words, for a 4 million bonus, we could have treated up to 4 million of that amount as salary against this years cap, leaving only salary in the coming years. We also could have counted any amount less than the full 4 million bonus as a salary increase this year, say 2 million, and had the remaining 2 million count as bonus (prorated) money against the cap in coming seasons.

After Nov. 8, we have to prorate the bonus over the life of the contract. None of it can be treated as salary against this year's cap.

That's why it's important to get your high bonus guys signed. Getting low bonus guys signed now doesn't help up much in the coming years.

Okay, now we are in complete agreement, because that is exactly what I said in the post you quoted. At least they did something, which was better than doing nothing at all.

 

[pete]

Signing an older veteran like Emmitt who already has made $30+ million is easier.

Even easier when you make a ridiculous offer!

 

[joeshmo]

What gets me is extending Ohalete, am I alone in thinking he's a VERY mediocre player? Went from starter to unable to make the team in Washington for Gibbs after they drafted Taylor. From what I've seen he's always out of position. To me he's the exact WRONG kind of safety to play with Adrian Wilson, you KNOW Wilson will be all over the place making plays, but also some mistakes. So your FS HAS to be a guy who sticks to his responsibilities you can't have a FS who is also out of position a lot or you're going to get some big plays allowed.

This is all assuming that Ohalete will be a starter next year. Right now he was probably given a very minimum cap figure which is just fine with me for DB backup with starting experiance and isnt a bum. Not to mention before the signing we had ZERO S's under contract next year, thats right ZERO. Good re-signing.

 

[WildBB]

You're acting like he's already a free agent. Something can still get done. Hell, if they have to, they can even go the tag route if it comes down to it.

Hopefully - The tag route isn't the way to go with a SS though.

 

[Rocco]

Okay, now we are in complete agreement, because that is exactly what I said in the post you quoted. At least they did something, which was better than doing nothing at all.

Agreed, but in the Wilson case, it's a losing proposition for both sides. He doesn't get paid and we will take a bigger cap hit now to keep him. Even if we tag him, it's gonna cost us at least 3 mil now against the cap. Figuring an offer of 3 million a year to sign now, we could have had a cap hit of around 2 mil a year for the next 4 years with a 4 million bonus. I would be willing to bet that the bonus offer wasn't 4 million though. I'm sure the upfront money was the issue here.

And the higher the bonus, the lower the cap hit could have been over time.

 

[ajcardfan]

Agreed, but in the Wilson case, it's a losing proposition for both sides. He doesn't get paid and we will take a bigger cap hit now to keep him. Even if we tag him, it's gonna cost us at least 3 mil now against the cap. Figuring an offer of 3 million a year to sign now, we could have had a cap hit of around 2 mil a year for the next 4 years with a 4 million bonus. I would be willing to bet that the bonus offer wasn't 4 million though. I'm sure the upfront money was the issue here.

And the higher the bonus, the lower the cap hit could have been over time.

Upfront money is ALWAYS the issue. I'd guess they did not offer Wilson much more bonus than they offered Jackson which was 2.75million. With CB being a need next year, and Starks having got a five million bonus a couple of years ago, I (and that's just me) would not offer Wilson more than 4 upfront. It would set a tough precedent for other negotiations. I would guess you are correct and their offer to Wilson was around 3 at the most.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

I'm so tired of this crap.

We're an estimated 6 to 8 million under the cap and we can't get Wilson, one of the few playmakers we have on this team, signed? We can only get 4 role players signed? We can't get Boldin extended? What were we holding on to all that space for?

Bidwill keeps the extra money now. Any signing after this point goes against next years cap, with Wilson and Boldin wanting some deserved raises. No wonder we don't win. Lousy, terrible, pathetic cap management. The Bidwills have no one to blame but themselves. I'll bet the rest of the league's owners see them as a bunch of leeches, riding on the coattails of the rest of the league who actually spend money and take risks to make the league the success that it is.

Boo-frickin-hoo. I bet Wilson ends up being franchised, and he'll make plenty o' money. They could be light years apart, but we'll never know. The Cardinals have the final say with their franchise tag. I bet Wilson is more upset about telling MJ about it before it happened. Or he could be upset at his agent. We don't know, so enough negative crap. Graves has done a good job. In the past, we wouldn't even have Peppi or Hambrick at all right now.

 

[Russ Smith]

This is all assuming that Ohalete will be a starter next year. Right now he was probably given a very minimum cap figure which is just fine with me for DB backup with starting experiance and isnt a bum. Not to mention before the signing we had ZERO S's under contract next year, thats right ZERO. Good re-signing.

OK but to lose Wilson we're going to have to just choose to let him go. We still have months to sign him, or tag him worst case scenario. Ohalete at a reasonable price is insurance I guess but my point is he's not doing anything on the field to make me think he's all that valuable.

I'd rather spend a bit more to get a quality starter and get a cheaper backup but of course I have no idea what Ohalete will be getting next year.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It is a bit of a bummer they didn't extend Wilson, but at least they did something with that space pre November 8th. The guys they did extend, I'm sure they pushed all of their bonus onto the cap this year. I'd guess this was in the range of 2 mil, 3 mil tops. Now, in future seasons, those guys will only count as minimum salaries. So, they can be on the team next year with almost no increase in cap hit. It's not as sexy as a Wilson extension, but it is still better than the cap management this team used to do.

but it's still a waste of what they could have done. the cards blew this one.

 

[Skkorpion]

but it's still a waste of what they could have done. the cards blew this one.

It was a bit of a waste but we don't know what Wilson was demanding. The details will eventually come out. Certainly, the results were disappointing.

Anybody notice how few extensions occurred around the league yesterday? Very unusual.

 

[ajcardfan]

but it's still a waste of what they could have done. the cards blew this one.

Quite possibly. All depends on how much money Wilson wanted.

 

[justAndy]

...

We DON'T know the details.
To call anything in this area of the team business good or bad is to assume knowledge that you DON'T have.
Wait and see...

 

[cardsunsfan]

It does really suck though and it is a waste...now Wilson should get less than he would have gotten, period. He could of helped us out and we could have helped him out..he deserved a little extra bonus if he had signed before the deadline. He didn't. If we could have signed him we could have a netted a very good player with the extra money we saved.. This does suck! I can't wait until the stadium money starts comming in. I bet things change then...

 

[joeshmo]

It was a bit of a waste but we don't know what Wilson was demanding. The details will eventually come out. Certainly, the results were disappointing.

Anybody notice how few extensions occurred around the league yesterday? Very unusual.

Jurecki did a really small blurb on it today. He said he talked to Wilson and he was disappointed. Jurecki takes his shots at upper management any chance he can but all he said was, "It takes two to tango", not bashing the Cards once, which leads me to believe Wilson may have been asking for to much, either to much of a bonus, difference in years, incentoves, ect. Remember just last year Wilson was quoted many times saying he was the best S in the league, he probably wanted to be the best paid S as well. Of course this is all speculation, I just find Jurecki's comments odd.

As for extensions only the Eagles really did anything.

 

[AntSports Steve]

First, I believe the Cards were $6M under the cap, that's a big difference than $8M.

This year, you need to examine Why are the Cards $6M under the cap? The major reason is Coach Green cut Kendal, a cap savings they didn't expect of around $3M. After they cut him, there weren't many players worth picking up left, so they didn't waste the money.

The resigning of the 4 players, if they did it right, should have used up a good chunk of that $6M. I'm sure they still have almost $2M or more to spare right now.

I don't think, after Boldin's injury, that they wanted to redo his contract. They will probably wait and see his performance the rest of the year to make a proposal. Remember, he's under contract and can't go anywhere. His only recourse is to hold out, which, if he has a good rest of the season, he will do.

Now, Wilson is a safety. He's probably asking for probowl money and it's still in question if he will make the probowl this year. I'm thinking he won't. Also, safety is the easiest postion to go find free agent talent. Teams allow their good safeties to be free agents often. So, I'm sure the offer to Wilson was less than he hoped.

So, they used most of the cap. That's ok. I would like to see them have a team that's good enough that they actually sign enough quality guys that they have to push salary into the future (ie, spending over the cap), but I don't know if the Cards will ever do that.

The failure this year was getting a reasonable veteran guard. Right at the beginning when they announced that Big was going to be the LT, is started saying, they need another good $2-3M guard. Instead, they brought in guard leftovers when they needed steak and the cut Kendal making matters worse.

 

[john h]

If you have been around since 67 (and I don't doubt you), you cannot sit in front of your computer and honestly say that this team hasn't made some strides over the last couple of years.

In the past the money this team spent was done so foolishly and on the wrong players. This is the team that gave Plummer a gazillion dollars which shattered our salary cap and forced us to let players like Centers , Lomas Brown, and Jamir Miller go to other teams.

I'll agree that this team doesn't spend money with the likes of a Daniel Snyder, but when I check the newspaper, the Redskins haven't won any more games than us over the last 2 years.

My point is this team IS changing. We did extend 4 contracts this year and a few last year. In the past this organization NEVER did anything like that. We've hired a REAL head coach. We have signed our draft picks and had them in camp ON TIME. This organization has changed.

One other thing. This new stadium? How much of Bidwills own money is going into it? The answer? Plenty. Do you want to know how much money the Bears owners anteed up? NADA.

Blast them for the past. Be my guest. But to deny that this club hasn't changed it's way of doing business is just.....well........stupid.

I do not profess to know then details of all this but do know it is important to resign Wilson. He is one of the better defenders in the NFL at this time and by far our best DB. He is the kind of guy you need to retain. Whether it is now or in December I do not care but letting him walk would send a message to other players on this team and other teams that the organization is not ready to do what it takes to be a contender. We have sure let some great DB's get aways from this team over the years and have had to use #1 picks in the draft on DB's. It would be cheaper to give Wilson a serious bump in salary and keep him. It was only two years ago we were saying a DB was our most serious need. Now we have that serious need on the team. Keep him!!!!!!