A Cardinals' Roadmap From the Cellar to Contender

[Cbus cardsfan]

Tarkenton was much harder to sack than Roethlisberger. What was he, 6-0 if i remember? It's true - size has nothing to do with it.

Just one more example for you

I'm not so sure about that.

Tarkenton may have been harder to catch but he wasn't harder to get on the ground. I doubt Fran shook off too many 300 lb. linemen like Ben does.

 

[Duckjake]

Haven't you seen New Orleans game and the hit on Warner? I can't remember how many times he looked like he was going to die out there for all those years. He is just mentally much better QB and doesn't get impact from all the hits. Same with Brees that is lighter and even more fragile than Hall, he just reads the game 100 times better and doesn't allow those collisions and when they happen, he rebounds immediately.

Hall got scared after all the beating. Look in his eyes. He is not a tough player for the NFL. It has nothing to do with size. He got scared and completely forgot the plays and defensive alignments and made stupid throws that has nothing to do with his size.

Then, the game gets faster. Much faster.

I played Jr. and High School football with little guys who hit you like they were made out of iron. And huge guys who when you hit them and it was like hitting a huge pillow. Hall isn't one of those ironmen.

Oh yeah, and if Hall had been hit like Warner was Hall would have been knocked out for a week.

 

[Early]

I'm not so sure about that.

Tarkenton may have been harder to catch but he wasn't harder to get on the ground. I doubt Fran shook off too many 300 lb. linemen like Ben does.

yeah, but Ben gets caught all the time and he ends in a bad position every time for that to happen. Tarkenton is more clever and escapes them. Does it matter how to get rid of them? or you simply prefer Big Bens style because it looks better for you? See, it's all about the brain. That's why Big Ben is always the most sacked player in NFL most of the years, he just doesn't know how to get rid of the football fast and in correct place. If he didn't had the most dominating defense of all time, he would be very far from winning a Super Bowl. Warner had nothing besides Fitz and Boldin. It was his brain that got us in SB.

You know an even better way than Fran's?? Brees is smart and doesn't allow the pass rush to get to him. He has quick release and understanding and that's the way he escapes the pass rush. It's a much better and smart way than let them come to you and trying to shake them off with size

I guarantee you that all of the best QB's of all time, if they played today, they would be the best in the game. Game is all about toughness and intelligence. And the game is much softer now.

 

[chickenhead]

Do we consider Flutie a successful NFL quarterback in this argument? Hall has some size on Doug, who did have a pro bowl year. But clearly no one built a team around him and it also happened after he'd built a tremendous career of his own in the CFL.

 

[PJ1]

Good post Mitch. I believe I heard Damien Woody has retired. Bring in Starks if possible for competition as I believe Gathier is injured. Get as many people as possible in there competing and see what happens.
As for NT looks like quite a few accomplished vets available. Anything but bringing Robinson back. He was horrible last year. Williams will need quite a few plays off again to be effective.

Glad to see Williams doing well but way too early to say he will be the starter. Let's at least get some preseason games in.

With Wilson and now Adams going down we have to sign some people. Need some experience back there.

Max Hall not really worth discussing.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Do we consider Flutie a successful NFL quarterback in this argument? Hall has some size on Doug, who did have a pro bowl year. But clearly no one built a team around him and it also happened after he'd built a tremendous career of his own in the CFL.

But, Flutie - who actually was about 5'10' - was an exceptional athlete.

 

[kerouac9]

NT: Help has to be on the way and it cannot be from Bryan Robinson. There are some veterans still unsigned: Pat Williams (6-3, 317, 38, 15, Texas A&M, MIN), Jamal Williams (6-3, 348, 35, 14, Oklahoma St. DEN), John Henderson (6-7, 335, 32, 10, Tennessee, OAK), Marcus Stroud (6-6, 310, 34, 11, Georgia, NE). Maybe one of these 4 has 15-17 snaps a game left in the tank. It's well worth the roll of the dice to take a chance.

Henderson and Stroud, like Alan Branch, are not legitimate NT players. They're too tall. You want your NTs to be no larger than 6'2" because they have to get under the pads of the OCs and OGs they'll be matching up with down after down.

Pat Williams is facing a suspension for StarCaps and Jamal Williams has severe back problems. I don't think that either of them are options.

 

[JeffGollin]

He is listed as 6-1 on just about every site I can find...Even if he was 5-11, it's a incredibly small difference to what many HOF QB's are. He can and he did still see the field and can throw over the line. What he failed in was the mental part of the game.

Respectfully disagree.

Most of the time, he "played short" and appeared to be throwing out of a deep man-hole.

His problem isn't mental (at least most of it - see below). It's physical. If you're going to be a short, smart guy, you'd better be agile enough, accurate enough and poised enough to make plays on a consistent basis.

He couldn't.

A bigger, taller QB could stand in there in the face of a rush and step up into the pocket to execute the throw. A more agile QB, in the face of a rush, could at least roll out or waggle outside the pocket to buy time and find a passing lane.

Because he wasn't big enough or agile enough (or rattle-free), Max seemed to get engulfed back there - way too often. Maybe this could be overcome by greater poise or better pass protection (& I'm rooting for him to do so), but he's starting out with a pretty heavy handicap to overcome vs. Kolb, Skelton and Bartel - all of whom apparently are looking better.

 

[clif]

Well all I know for sure is that I at least saw Drew Brees make some plays in college as where I never heard of Max Hall until last year. Drew Brees did some nice things at Purdue and IIRC set some records and beat Notre Dame at their place before it became a regular occurrence.

Before the love fest for Max Hall returns... please watch some videos of last season when he was in the game to remind yourself.

 

[SuperSpck]

Oh, so now it's arm strength.

All you seem to think attributes, both physical and/or mental are an all or nothing proposition.
It's holistic. It's on a gradient.
Some guys make it work with a little brain and a ton of body.
Some flip that.
Others are a little more half-and-half.
It's not the sexy extremes but life isn't about neat boxes.

 

[SuperSpck]

But---here are areas that have not been stressed nearly enough:

1. Tackling.
2. Blocking.
3. Pass Coverage Assignments Synchronization and Execution.
4. Third Down Offense and Defense.
5. Chipping and Double Teaming on Offense and Defense.

Without premier talent at QB they need to get back to basics.
Wait... start with basics.
You're right, it's been lacking.
What's the old saying?
Technique doesn't get tired.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But, Flutie - who actually was about 5'10' - was an exceptional athlete.

agreed, flutie was a super-freak as an athlete. dude had a cannon for an arm.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh, so now it's arm strength. This keeps getting better and better. A "skill" just as much overrated as size. Bill Walsh, what he quoted most in his entire career was that the ball had to be thrown soft and catchable. With timing. That was the most important part.

QB position is about toughness and mental processing of the game and accuracy. Has absolutely nothing, or in worst case, a negligible effect of size and arm strength. Quick release and a soft throw is 100 times better than a hard thrown ball with slow release.

What greatest QB's in history share in common is these skills that i just mentioned. Not size and arm strength, they are not the common for the group.

it's EVERYTHING.

 

[Krangodnzr]

We are going with the roster we have. It might be a bad idea, but there is enough talent on the roster to make a run at the NFC West this year.

Let the young guys (D Wash, D Williams, AJ Jefferson, Patrick Peterson, O'Brien Schofield, Sam Acho) play and let some of them develop. After last season, I don't reasonably expect us to be competitive, but I do see a scenario (Kevin Kolb plays lights out) where we shock the NFL.

 

[WildBB]

Good write up with some viable players who can still bring it at times. Liked the list of NT''s.

When players go down, we are really exposed depth wise.

But, I do expect signings during the year. Anyone know if there's a cut off date as to when you have to use the 95% of the cap $$?

Out of curiosity, how can you anoint Williams the starter w/o seeing him play a down yet?!

 

[THESMEL]

I could care less about Max Hall, He is a non factor.

We sucked at every fundamental last year, We kept UFA's and praised their monumental accomplishments, we hit with a thump,

Lets see how Ryan Williams holds up against other teams before we crown him, We need a large dose of fundamentals, starting with running the ball successfully before we even attempt a forward pass.

I have preseason hope, our usual large influx of UFA's and low quality players may win a job and a game, with a run game. wouldn't hurt a quality Mister Kolb either.

might want to turn off the music? but got my hopes up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVG-VCci7RI

 

[Early]

All you seem to think attributes, both physical and/or mental are an all or nothing proposition.
It's holistic. It's on a gradient.
Some guys make it work with a little brain and a ton of body.
Some flip that.
Others are a little more half-and-half.
It's not the sexy extremes but life isn't about neat boxes.

No guys became the best of the best at the position with little brain and ton of body. They all share two attribute in common: brain and heart. With those two in place, one's requirement for the body is significantly diminished and becomes a very low factor for outcome of games. That's why majority of the best QB's are not the best athletes and that's why majority of the best of the best are not tall and are all pocket passers. You live and die in the pocket using your brain and heart.

Early

 

[Early]

Respectfully disagree.

Most of the time, he "played short" and appeared to be throwing out of a deep man-hole.

His problem isn't mental (at least most of it - see below). It's physical. If you're going to be a short, smart guy, you'd better be agile enough, accurate enough and poised enough to make plays on a consistent basis.

He couldn't.

A bigger, taller QB could stand in there in the face of a rush and step up into the pocket to execute the throw. A more agile QB, in the face of a rush, could at least roll out or waggle outside the pocket to buy time and find a passing lane.

Because he wasn't big enough or agile enough (or rattle-free), Max seemed to get engulfed back there - way too often. Maybe this could be overcome by greater poise or better pass protection (& I'm rooting for him to do so), but he's starting out with a pretty heavy handicap to overcome vs. Kolb, Skelton and Bartel - all of whom apparently are looking better.

I don't agree with a single argument in all of that. Brees also looks the same in the pocket and he gets the ball out because he mentally is stronger and knows when to get it out not to get in trouble. Max got in trouble because he couldn't read the plays and it lasts so long and the pocket shrinks too much and that makes him look "small". Brees knows to get the ball out fast, makes faster reads and has faster release and therefore he never gets in those kind of trouble and therefore he doesn't appear "small" in your eyes. He is too smart to let the pocket shrink so he can't make the play. It's really the only difference between the two. Max is actually even more mobile than Brees and faster out of the pocket with ball in his hands. Max Hall sucks because he can't deal with any mental phase of the game. That's why Skelton sucks and that's also why Leinart sucks.

As for the camp yesterday, Skelton was having the worst practice of his life and couldn't call the simplest plays. It is very bad at this point and Hall has looked better for sure actually at that practice. Kolb continues to struggle and threw a pick once gain to Marshall. He was starring down Doucet for way to long allegedly. It's not looking good.

All the QB's suck at this moment. We will know more in preseason games.

 

[SuperSpck]

No guys became the best of the best at the position with little brain and ton of body.Early

Terry Bradshaw?

I get what you're saying though.

 

[kerouac9]

We are going with the roster we have. It might be a bad idea, but there is enough talent on the roster to make a run at the NFC West this year.

Let the young guys (D Wash, D Williams, AJ Jefferson, Patrick Peterson, O'Brien Schofield, Sam Acho) play and let some of them develop. After last season, I don't reasonably expect us to be competitive, but I do see a scenario (Kevin Kolb plays lights out) where we shock the NFL.

Maybe you have a lower estimation of the roster than I do, because I absolutely expect us to be competitive. Maybe not competitive for the Super Bowl, but 7-9 competitive with only a couple of blowouts.

If we end up 5-11 again and we have 6 games where we would be better off not showing up at all, then Whis should be fired and the Cards should swallow the last two years of his contract (not my money--but it wouldn't ever happen).

A.J. Jefferson is this season's Trumaine McBride. Even with Money Mike's injury, he's just a roster placeholder for Richard Marshall and Patrick Peterson. Horton hasn't seen him before; there's no reason he should promote him from the practice squad to the starting lineup. He'll be a healthy inactive for most of the season. Even Whis in his Saturday presser declined to say that Jefferson's doing great, or even well. He said that Jefferson is "getting an opportunity." Hardly a ringing endorsement.

We don't play a murderer's row this year. This team should remain within shouting distance of the playoffs into mid-December. Anything else is unacceptable.

It's crazy how quickly the expectations have returned to Dave McGinnis levels.

 

[chickenhead]

agreed, flutie was a super-freak as an athlete. dude had a cannon for an arm.

My favorite Flutie play (okay, second favorite) was a flying cannonball block he threw--I think when he was on the Bills. Wish I could find it...

 

[Duckjake]

It's crazy how quickly the expectations have returned to Dave McGinnis levels.

When you play at a Dave McGinnis level the season before that's what you get. Especially when you have a huge unknown at QB and a Defense that looks basically the same as last season.

There are too many question marks to think any different right now but after a couple of preseason games where we can see that Kolb, and Peterson, and Colledge and Bradley, and Schofield and RWilliams and Acho can play and if our returning guys are picking it up and our new Coordinators performing (well we might not be able to judge that if they go Vanilla as is normal) I suspect the atmosphere will change.

This has to be the biggest "Who the Heck Knows" season in recent memory.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When you play at a Dave McGinnis level the season before that's what you get. Especially when you have a huge unknown at QB and a Defense that looks basically the same as last season.

There are too many question marks to think any different right now but after a couple of preseason games where we can see that Kolb, and Peterson, and Colledge and Bradley, and Schofield and RWilliams and Acho can play and if our returning guys are picking it up and our new Coordinators performing (well we might not be able to judge that if they go Vanilla as is normal) I suspect the atmosphere will change.

This has to be the biggest "Who the Heck Knows" season in recent memory.

yup. we gonna go BOOM! or we gonna go BUST! I don't see a middle ground here.

my biggest problem is that we're basically bringing back almost the exact same defense. the possible upgrade at DC and at ILB is tempered by the unknown quality of such upgrades/injury concerns/Bradley hasn't played well since 2008, not to mention the guys who made very little impact last year (Porter/Haggans/unfortunately even AW) are either older or already injured. That being said, we don't know if the youngins can take major leaps forward in year two... but considering they didn't get the usual off-season where that progression is usually helped, they're all major question marks.

just a ton of question marks this season. makes me REALLY intrigued for it, but my expectations are shall we say... tempered.

 

[82CardsGrad]

yup. we gonna go BOOM! or we gonna go BUST! I don't see a middle ground here.

my biggest problem is that we're basically bringing back almost the exact same defense. the possible upgrade at DC and at ILB is tempered by the unknown quality of such upgrades/injury concerns/Bradley hasn't played well since 2008, not to mention the guys who made very little impact last year (Porter/Haggans/unfortunately even AW) are either older or already injured. That being said, we don't know if the youngins can take major leaps forward in year two... but considering they didn't get the usual off-season where that progression is usually helped, they're all major question marks.

just a ton of question marks this season. makes me REALLY intrigued for it, but my expectations are shall we say... tempered.

Campbell is also coming off a down year and REALLY needs to step up bigtime this season...
Williams being fat and out of shape won't help - at least early on. Perhaps he can play himself into shape by week 10.
I reall don't hold out much hope for guys like Porter and Haggans. They both aren't every down players and are merely pass rushing specialists who didn't do just that last season...
Who knows what to make of A-Dub and his injury...

Lots of big questions remain on defense.... uh, ok... all over this team....

 

[chickenhead]

To be fair, we are bringing back the same defense but not the same DC. Also, I think Kolb will do a better job than DA, Hall, or Skelton in keeping the defense off the field. I'm not predicting a winning season because of them (too hard to predict anything this year) but I do see those two things as positives.