A Chilling Vision of Things to Come

[AsUdUdE]

I want Kolb.. but not for a first... period end of story...

If we get Kolb for 2 2s, and he is "average", 3500-4000 yards 20 TDs 12 ints, we will win the NFC west for a while... and to me that is really his floor.. who knows what his ceiling could be...

but has anyone SEEN the 2012 draft? We can NOT trade our first next year.. the top 10 is STACKED.. even if we miss out on luck you have two/three legit franchise LTs, a couple stud WRs, Barkley/Jones, an our resident headcase Vontaze Burfict...

If the lockout does indeed last through september take the lumps we will get for 8-10 games and get corner piece to our team next year...

We just CAN'T trade a 1st for Kolb this season, especially as this lockout continues...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah but Plummer was good in Denver because Shanahan had 6 years of starts to look at on film and figure out what Jake could NOT do so he could design an offense for him.

Jake would have been on the bench behind McNabb and later Vick in Philly too if he were in Kolb's place.

I have no idea how good he'll be, but he doesn't remind me of Jake at all.

agreed with this.

 

[Dayman]

Because I think that Whis could be fired after another 5-11 season. If we have a winning season, then we draft a QB in the first who Whis loves, and are either successful with him or go back to the #7 experience with a new head coach inheriting a QB that he didn't draft.

I don't know if Whis loves Kolb or not, but he's liked him for awhile.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...arizona-cardinals-trade-value-kevin-kolb.html

The Cardinals liked Kolb when he was coming out of the University of Houston, and he has the type of personality (gym rat) that Cardinals coach Ken Whisenhunt likes in a quarterback.

And I agree that Whis is probably another 5-11 season away from the hot seat, which is why the second part of Somers' quote is important. I don't see Whis mortgaging his future on a QB who doesn't fit his preferred personality type. Do you really think that Whis' first choice is a guy who might have lost his passion for the game (Bulger)? Or a renowned partier (Orton)? I have my doubts. My guess is that Whis wants a QB with some experience and a relentless work ethic. Kolb fits that description better than any available QB.

 

[Stout]

I don't like Kolb any better than the crop of FA QBs, or Orton, Hill or Palmer (potential trade QBs). I'd rather not give up anything to get him, especially since we'll have to give him a big-money multi-year contract.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The think Kolb brings to the table, if he's good, is that the QB is set for the next 5-7 years. If he's not then we are likely looking at the yearly free agent scrub trying to resurrect their career in Arizona QB merry-go-round that was the 90's. Bulger, Hasselback, Alex Smith coming in vying for the starting job every year sounds awfully familiar to the Hogeboom, Dave Brown, Kent Graham,Jay Schroeder years.

 

[bg7brd]

I want Kolb.. but not for a first... period end of story...

If we get Kolb for 2 2s, and he is "average", 3500-4000 yards 20 TDs 12 ints, we will win the NFC west for a while... and to me that is really his floor.. who knows what his ceiling could be...

but has anyone SEEN the 2012 draft? We can NOT trade our first next year.. the top 10 is STACKED.. even if we miss out on luck you have two/three legit franchise LTs, a couple stud WRs, Barkley/Jones, an our resident headcase Vontaze Burfict...

If the lockout does indeed last through september take the lumps we will get for 8-10 games and get corner piece to our team next year...

We just CAN'T trade a 1st for Kolb this season, especially as this lockout continues...

Trade Beanie to the Bengals for Palmer and save our draft picks. If the coaching staff doesn't think Skelton is the QBOF then draft him next year to sit behind Palmer for 2 years.

 

[Catfish]

K-9, Kolb's showing for the time he has been in Philly is exactly why I am not enthusiastic about going after him. He was barely so-so there with some real talent to work with. Not exactly what I look for in a prime QB contender.

So far as I am concerned, Whiz has yet to actually accomplish anything close to getting us out of the QB predicament he put us in. (I know Warner retired, but the rest is on Whiz). He has talked about having a plan, but as I recall, Anderson was a large part of that plan, and look where that got us. He says he wanted Bulger after we already signed Anderson, but he didn't go get him. I have a hard time believing that either Kolb or Bulger is the answer for us, but we shall see. I would really like to see Palmer in here, but I don't believe his owner will deal for him.

I fault Whiz, (not so much for not liking Leinart, because he is a hard person to like), but for not having a plan in place in case his firing of Leinart backfired like it did. That is just not any way for a head coach to react in my opinion. It seems to me that no matter what choice a HC makes, he needs a backup plan in case it fails. Whiz had none in the case of Leinart vs. Anderson. To me, that is unforgivable.

 

[moklerman]

Obviously I agree.

So you both agree it wasn't Hasslebeck. Which was my point.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Kevin Kolb will be Scott Mitchell at best. I'd pick 5 FA QBs over him before I'd even discuss a trade.

 

[JeffGollin]

More and more, I'm feeling that our starting QB will be Skelton. (My gut tells me that, in absolute terms, when you line him up next to Kolb or Bulger, he comes up best).

With that assessment comes an assumption of faith - that the 2011 Skelton will be a somewhat improved version of the 2010 Skelton - the question being "will he improve enough?"

Based on all that's happened (i.e. the draft, lockout etc.) my strategy right now would be to: (1) Roll the dice that Skelton will improve enough so that we could win with him. (2) Sign a veteran to push (and serve as insurance for) Skelton. (3) If Skelton doesn't emerge as "our guy" for the foreseeable future, draft the best available QB in 2012.

Icing on the cake would be if we could sign Hasslebeck - who's still good enough to buy us an additional year of time to develop and evaluate Skelton.

 

[Mulli]

Hey K9, Plummer helped the Cards beat the Saints 19-17 during the run to the playoffs, not the run to the 2nd overall pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Arizona_Cardinals_season

Same thing though. That extension was whack.

 

[kerouac9]

Hey K9, Plummer helped the Cards beat the Saints 19-17 during the run to the playoffs, not the run to the 2nd overall pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Arizona_Cardinals_season

Same thing though. That extension was whack.

That's right. I couldn't remember whether that playoff run was during my senior year in high school or my freshman year in college. Turned out to be the latter.

It was supposed to be the Plummer extension that proved that this wasn't the "same old Cards." Pretty incredible that ten years ago that was considered a big contract extension.

 

[Pariah]

But what if Kolb just ends up okay? What if he ends up being a Matt Hasselback/Jeff Garcia-type?

You get the Arizona Cardinals from 1999-2002.

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. If we get a legitimate starter at the QB position for the the 5-7 years out of the deal we come out on top.

The coaching and the supporting cast on offense and defense is better than in the Plummer era, and Plummer was almost always really careless with the ball. If we get a Hasselbeck/Garcia type running this offense we'll be a playoff team most every year, IMO.

 

[football karma]

It was supposed to be the Plummer extension that proved that this wasn't the "same old Cards." Pretty incredible that ten years ago that was considered a big contract extension.

the "back story" to that extension is both interesting and a tribute to the dysfunction propagated by Bill Sr.

The Cardinals had a reasonably competent front office guy in Bob Ferguson. Combine him with a reasonable amount of young talent left by Buddy Ryan and the team was on the upswing. With the emergence of Plummer, it seemed there were enough pieces to really build around.

Well -- at the same time, Bill Jr was becoming more involved in the team. He went ahead, with his father's knowledge, but without the Ferguson's -- negotiated and signed Plummer to that monster (at the time) extension.

The Plummer contract and the cash that went out the door meant that for two years afterwards, the team really couldn't afford to keep (or add) key players -- J. Miller, Lomas Brown, Larry Centers.

that contract and its aftermath spelled the end of Bill Sr. and opened the door for Mike.

 

[Mulli]

Ferguson had some pretty iffy drafts as well if I recall correctly.

 

[john h]

I was thinking about these Kevin Kolb debates and they seem to come down to the question of whether the value is high enough to justify the cost. The main factor for those advocating for Kolb is that he answers the medium-term question of who is the starting quarterback for the Arizona Cardinals. That answer is enough for some to justify the difference between two second-round picks and one first-round pick.

If Kolb is a disaster, then the choice is wrong. If Kolb is a Top 5 quarterback, then the choice is a good one. But what if Kolb just ends up okay? What if he ends up being a Matt Hasselback/Jeff Garcia-type?

You get the Arizona Cardinals from 1999-2002.

If and when the Cards trade for Kolb, they'll have to make a commitment to him on the order of 6 years, $63 million with more than $40 million coming in the first three years. There is no drafting a quarterback in that scenario.

When Jake Plummer beat the New Orleans Saints 19-17 to give us the 2nd overall pick in the 1999 NFL draft, the Cards gave him a three-year contract extension worth $29.7 million. That was on par with the best quarterbacks in the NFL--on par with what Drew Bledsoe received earlier that season from the New England Patriots. Arizona was committed to Jake Plummer as their quarterback of the present and future.

Plummer was a leader, could make all the throws, and was a gunslinger.

The rest of his time in Arizona Plummer's QB rating never topped 79.6, but the Cards went through a series of hot shot offensive coordinators trying to find someone who could realize Plummer's great potential. At the same time, Plummer's contract hamstrung the Cardinals against the salary cap and they had a hard time keeping their young players on the roster. Plummer went to the press nearly every offseason and offered to reduce his salary cap number for the sake of the team.

If Kolb is mediocre, than there is no taking a shot at Luck in the 2012 draft, or whomever comes next. If Kolb is mediocre, then Ken Whisenhunt and his staff take the fall after the 2012 season, because we can't swallow the Kolb contract extension. Whisenhunt is an offensive-minded head coach who has failed to replace the experienced personnel on his staff, or to locate consistent talent on the defensive coaching staff.

Trading for Kolb might not mean another 5-11 season, but it would likely mean a half-decade of 7-9 and 8-8 results and another coaching staff or two.

I just cannot see the Cards or any other team giving a 1s & 2nd round pick for Kolb and signing him to a big contract. That is just to absurd to believe. Even for the Cards and Graves. It makes no sense what so ever.

 

[Pariah]

I just cannot see the Cards or any other team giving a 1s & 2nd round pick for Kolb

The discussion on the table is a 1st OR two 2nds.

 

[Mulli]

The discussion on the table is a 1st OR two 2nds.

Ya, but what if the Cards gave up a 1st and 2nds. I would be SO MAD.

 

[desertdawg]

Ya, but what if the Cards gave up a 1st and 2nds. I would be SO MAD.

That's what I'm sayin. What we give for whoever is like bartalk right now. I aint getting so worked up about something that hasn't happened. A first, two seconds, a first and a fourth, or my personal favs are when one of the players get thrown in. I've scowered the internet as I'm sure most of us have, only to find opinions and hunches.

From Graves, Whiz, and co all I've heard and read is that they are serious and want to fix the QB problem now. Sounds like the little Bidwill is down for his too. Lockout sucks but it's gonna get even worse IMO, and so will the rumors and "trade packages." Akuna matada though, I'll probably have a crazy theory or two when all is said and done.

 

[kerouac9]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. If we get a legitimate starter at the QB position for the the 5-7 years out of the deal we come out on top.

The coaching and the supporting cast on offense and defense is better than in the Plummer era, and Plummer was almost always really careless with the ball. If we get a Hasselbeck/Garcia type running this offense we'll be a playoff team most every year, IMO.

I guess we disagree on what "legitimate starter" means. If we get a David Garrard, Jason Campbell-type QB out of the deal--a guy who doesn't take much off the table, but isn't going to come out an win games for you (which I think Kevin Kolb is)--is that worth a 1st round pick (plus?) and mega contract? I like the Jags, but Garrard wasn't the focus of that offense--MoJo Drew is.

I think your second paragraph was true a two years ago--when the team was stocked with Denny's players and relatively young. I'm not sure you can say that now. The supporting cast on defense largely has no future--Adrian Wilson and three of our starting linebackers have no NFL future beyond another season or two as top players. Scofield, Toler, R. Johnson (who will be Rhodes's replacement when Wilson retires and Rhodes moves into the SS role) are relatively unproven commodities. On offense, we have two OL who don't have contracts, Levi Brown who is due some $25 million in 2012, Fitz whose contract expires next year, and then a bunch of guys who are no better or worse than Jason McAddley.

I agree with you that the mindset of the Arizona Cardinals is drastically different than it was ten years ago, but the coaching of the offensive staff is deeply questionable. This coaching staff not only believed that Max Hall had a place on an NFL roster, but could be a starting NFL quarterback. This coaching staff has shown no commitment to the running game and just drafted it's third RB. This coaching staff just realized that the tight end position was kind of important in the NFL. The defensive coaching staff has another new mind at its head, but the results on the defensive side of the ball the last five years speak for themselves.

This roster is going to get turned over in a year or so, and you're putting faith in the braintrust who drafted Cody Brown, Buster Davis, and started Derek Anderson to put it back together. I don't have that kind of faith. Even if the individual decisions seem good (bringing in Faneca, trading Boldin, signing Joey Porter), there isn't a distinct vision for what this team is going to do/be.

 

[Pariah]

I guess we disagree on what "legitimate starter" means. If we get a David Garrard, Jason Campbell-type QB out of the deal--a guy who doesn't take much off the table, but isn't going to come out an win games for you (which I think Kevin Kolb is)--is that worth a 1st round pick (plus?) and mega contract?

First, I think Kolb will be better than those guys (I've NEVER liked Campbell).

Second, if that's who you wanted to compare him to, then that's who you should have compared him to. I likely wouldn't have responded at all.

Kolb is a risk, but I don't think he's the same risk as a rookie QB you'd draft in the first. That's why I'd be willing to give up a 1st for him (but not a first and a starter).

 

[Russ Smith]

the "back story" to that extension is both interesting and a tribute to the dysfunction propagated by Bill Sr.

The Cardinals had a reasonably competent front office guy in Bob Ferguson. Combine him with a reasonable amount of young talent left by Buddy Ryan and the team was on the upswing. With the emergence of Plummer, it seemed there were enough pieces to really build around.

Well -- at the same time, Bill Jr was becoming more involved in the team. He went ahead, with his father's knowledge, but without the Ferguson's -- negotiated and signed Plummer to that monster (at the time) extension.

The Plummer contract and the cash that went out the door meant that for two years afterwards, the team really couldn't afford to keep (or add) key players -- J. Miller, Lomas Brown, Larry Centers.

that contract and its aftermath spelled the end of Bill Sr. and opened the door for Mike.

it was worse than that. People forget midseason that year the Cards had a deal in principle to extend Jake at almost half that amount. It was announced before a game on one of those pregame shows that he was about to sign. But Jake was having a good year the team was winning so Jake's agent correctly figured we should wait, and he announced Jake didn't want to do anything until after the season so he could concentrate on the team trying to make the playoffs.

So if the Cards had pushed they probably get him signed for far less during the year.

Instead they give him the big bonus then don't have the cash to keep their own players who all wanted bonuses after seeing what Jake got.

Then Jake keeps saying I'd take less to keep to help the team each time meaning renegotiate, give me a new signing bonus and lower my CAPHIT, but not my actual salary and I'm fine.

I got so tired of the media reporting that and not calling him on it, is contract started the problem and they kept letting him claim he was willing to cut his salary when he wasn't.

 

[Mulli]

David Garrard is the same TYPE of QB as Jason Campbell? I did not know that.

 

[kerouac9]

David Garrard is the same TYPE of QB as Jason Campbell? I did not know that.

They're the same skill level of QB, but they're different types of talents. Garrard is kind of a homeless man's Ben Roethlisberger. Jason Campbell is a less fortunate Kyle Orton.

 

[Stout]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. If we get a legitimate starter at the QB position for the the 5-7 years out of the deal we come out on top.

The coaching and the supporting cast on offense and defense is better than in the Plummer era, and Plummer was almost always really careless with the ball. If we get a Hasselbeck/Garcia type running this offense we'll be a playoff team most every year, IMO.

The problem is that we don't just need a legitimate starter; we need a QB that can come out slinging the ball with accuracy under pressure and under fire. Kolb isn't that guy, and I doubt he ever will be. Few QBs are. That's why I like Skelton so much. He shows all of the qualities of a QB that can do that, but he was raw last year. Beyond raw, he rarely saw any practice snaps--not first team snaps--ANY snaps--until he started. It is also why I'd love to snag an Alex Smith or Shaun Hill. Yes, I know--two former San Fran QBs. When put in a strictly shotgun, gunslinging offense, I think they'd do well. Smith won't be too expensive, as long as we outbid the Neeners, but I don't know what it would cost to trade for Hill. Then, in a year or two, let Skelton step in.