A Failed Experiment?

[dscher]

I have not lost faith, I still believe he will be a top 5 NFL qb.

And even if we get him to consistently be a top 10 qb in this league, he was still the correct pick. Imo.

 

[cardpa]

I did. Kyler left some plays out there, but people are going overboard.

Early in the game he could have got a lot of big yards though.

I actually disagree with this analysis. Andy's not looking for the ball and by the time he stops his route the defender is there.

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Situationally the top GIF he should have dumped it off to Chase to get us in FG range...but if Hopkins somehow stays in bounds this is a big throw/better placement if he gets the room.

Needs to be better, but eh...lets wait till midseason at least before we go overboard.

I have a strange feeling the offense is going to put up a lot of points the next few weeks and this board will get over the top the other way.

In the third video, it appears that 54 read the Oline and knew what was coming. As soon as he saw the Oline pulling to his side he turned and went in to make the tackle. It was almost like he knew what the play was going to be as soon as he saw the Humphries and Pugh pull out to setup blocking for the screen.

The 2019 Cards decided on a bold plan to revitalize the team. They would hire a losing college coach who had developed an offense that put a bunch of points on the board. They believed Kansas City was the wave of the future and they wanted to ride that wave. Now it’s looking like the move was as misdirected as it was bold.

Most teams would have tried to hire Kingsbury as an offensive coordinator, but the Cards pushed all their chips to the center of the table. The Cards gave him an incredible amount of support. The took his dream QB with the first choice in the draft despite having traded up to draft a QB the previous year. They then traded away that QB at a loss. The Cards also signed a DC with head coaching experience to ease Kingsbury’s transition.

Things started to fall apart fast on defense. The DC struggled is an understatement. I joined others in arguing he deserved a chance this year with a better set of players. I was wrong. His unit lacks discipline and lacks effective technique design, e.g. blitzes. They do not play aggressively, e.g. 1 interception YTD and they simply too often make wrong, disorganized defensive calls, e.g. 10 men on the field yielding a TD . This is an ineffective defense. If Joseph has helped ease the HC transition it might have been better to select someone who’d succeeded in the HC role. Frankly his failure to develop a role for Simmons would be grounds enough to relieve him of his job. I’m okay with doing it now.

Some of my concerns are purely subjective. Some of you may think it odd but I fault Kingsbury’s sideline presence here. It often seems unemotional and detached. He doesn’t have to be Hank Stram or Pete Carroll. It may be the absence of fans makes his ultra calm seem more concerning. However, I think the lack of intensity carries over to KM. Who rarely exhibits leadership actions when off the field. His demeanor resembles Frosty the Snowman.

There seems little question there is essentially no QB development. Last week I was slammed for suggesting letting Murray sit for a series. My point was KK needs to get Murray’s attention because if KK has it now, he’s almost a total failure as a teacher. Murray’s mechanics are amateurish. He overthrew Fitz due to a lack of arm follow through. He did step into that throw but doesn’t do that consistently. When he rolls out he never resets, failing to pull up to throw. Sunday on a critical play, he instead ran out of bounds, well short of the first down line. You have to wonder if Murray has the courage to take a hit to complete a crucial throw. Have you seen Murray call an audible? I haven’t. I’m not certain he knows how to read a defense. He locks on his primary target like a laser and rarely uses progressions to defeat coverage.

The offense’s play design illustrates KK has no idea how to design a run game. Where’s the creativity we were promised? The most creative KK play I saw was Kirk going in motion that looked like 12 yards deep on a red zone play. Effectively leaving the offense to play 10 against 11. Another example: do they even have a 2 minute drill they practice?

Part of Murray’s failure can be attributed to some of the worst play calling I’ve ever seen. KK apparently studied the NFL and decided the most open receivers were the ones behind the line of scrimmage. That’s good for KM’s completion percentage but doesn’t win games. Despite near continual failures of this tactic KK persists. This week the Cards hit a new low of 4.3 yds per pass. Of course it’s harder to go deep when you never keep blockers in to protect. KK’s timing of when to call deep passes is odd at best. He often eschews first downs for a long shot chance at a big play. He seems most prone to do this on third down. He clearly also doesn’t comprehend trying for field goal range when facing third and long. He doesn’t know how to keep his team in striking position.

Whether it’s clock management or understanding the game situation KK seems to have no consistent grasp on reality. This week he punted with 7 minutes left and trailing by 3 scores. Did he expect his defense to give him 3 more possessions? It would have seemed better odds to let his offense try for a makable first down. He was still trying play action, delayed handoffs with 3 minutes left and 1 timeout.

Overall this team lacks discipline. They were lucky they weren’t flagged for knocking the ball out of Cooper’s hands long after the play had ended. KM intentionally grounds the ball like a Pop Warner player. 12 men on the field twice, then 10 when they allow a TD. Who’s in charge here? Is KK even involved with the defense? Does he hold anyone accountable for anything?

It would be one thing if the defense was the only problem as the Cards’ website seems to indicate. This problem is team-wide. The offense is equally responsible for this failure.

Finally, KK and staff clearly got out-coached. They’d substitute with 10 seconds on the play clock allowing the opposition to also substitute causing a Cards’ penalty or forcing them to waste a timeout. Fool me once...... Unless a remarkable transformation occurs the end of the season should coincide with the end of the KK experiment.

Agree with you Harry. In another post I pointed out that KK never was a winner in college yet Rhule was able to turn around two different programs in two years each. Kliff had six and couldn't do it. Posters used to defend Kliff by saying he didn't get top talent at TT so that's why he couldn't win in college yet I doubt Rhule had his pick of talent at Temple and Baylor yet was able to turn those programs into winning ones.

 

[dscher]

. I cannot fathom why Keim thought bringing him back after the last time he was here as such a disaster.

The answer might lie somewhere in here. Keim... disaster...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Look, our OL is still pretty bad, and our D is a sieve. Our 1st round pick can’t get on the field & neither can our 3rd rounder Jones. Other than our red zone efficiency, KK’s play calling has been poor. I have absolutely no concerns when it comes to Murray, but definitely concerned about KK & SK. No matter what, Joseph needs to go. This team will NEVER be a playoff team with Vance as the DC.

The OL is MUCH better than most of us make it out.

The past two games, Murray has mostly had all day to throw.

 

[Harry]

Quick thoughts. I thought the O-Line did a good job of pass defense, but no running lanes.

The SF win looks more like they beat a depleted team. They might finish last in the West.

If Murray is the problem, who chose him after years of observing his play and trying to recruit him?

I’m not saying this is the worst team ever. I’m saying I overrated them and the Niners. I’m sorry but what is better this year than the play the second half of last year? Where's the growth? Where’s the creativity?

 

[SissyBoyFloyd]

Et tu, Brutus. I can't believe what I am reading, especially from Harry.

2 weeks ago we were on our way to the playoffs. Now everyone seems to be jumping ship. Holy Cow! Glad I didn't marry most of you. It wouldn't have lasted past a couple weeks.

Maybe you guys need some couples counselling. I have a opening for this Friday at 9:30 am, if you and Kliff are available.

 

[PACardsFan]

It’s really laughable that we’re talking about failed experiments and lumping Murray into that conversation. Based on his current stats, Murray’s legs & arm would result in 44 touchdowns. And he hasn’t even played to his potential yet. Has any previous Cardinal QB been able to say that?

 

[Jetstream Green]

Nice post. What’s your theory? How about contributing something of substance?

What should he contribute? That's the point, jump the on the hyperbole 'this is our year' or the complete opposite of 'we completely suck rocks'. There is nothing to contribute at this point. Now if halfway through the season a constant of concern appears, yeah as fans we can feel a sense of urgency without actually being in the locker room or on the sidelines. Chill my brothers and say a prayer for the Van Halen family, a guitar god died today

 

[TaylorSwift]

I think Kliffs playcalling is a far bigger problem than Murray at the moment.

Kliff is not instilling confidence in his QB and is not calling plays that provide balance in moving the ball vertically at all.

I am surprised this offense hasn't morphed into a poor mans version of the chiefs.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Everyone that was expecting a k1 big second year leap because of Lamar and Patrick, well the biggest difference is that those two got to sit a watch for a bit. I'm old school in this thought process, and believe that QBs are better when they can watch a vet operate even if it's only for half a season. Or at least have a vet they can lean on.

 

[BritCard]

I think Kliffs playcalling is a far bigger problem than Murray at the moment.

Kliff is not instilling confidence in his QB and is not calling plays that provide balance in moving the ball vertically at all.

I am surprised this offense hasn't morphed into a poor mans version of the chiefs.

Have you not seen the Kyler bad decision thread with the All 22?

Look at these and tell me how it's the play calling?

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[BritCard]

Everyone that was expecting a k1 big second year leap because of Lamar and Patrick, well the biggest difference is that those two got to sit a watch for a bit. I'm old school in this thought process, and believe that QBs are better when they can watch a vet operate even if it's only for half a season. Or at least have a vet they can lean on.

I wasn't expecting Jackson or Mahomes, but I also wasn't expecting him to be worse than he finished last season.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Quick thoughts. I thought the O-Line did a good job of pass defense, but no running lanes.

The SF win looks more like they beat a depleted team. They might finish last in the West.

If Murray is the problem, who chose him after years of observing his play and trying to recruit him?

I’m not saying this is the worst team ever. I’m saying I overrated them and the Niners. I’m sorry but what is better this year than the play the second half of last year? Where's the growth? Where’s the creativity?

Hard to see any growth when we constantly make the same mistakes and the same poor play calling.

KM is part of the problem right now, not part of the solution.

Can it change?

Of course, but we need to see it.

 

[Stout]

Look, our OL is still pretty bad, and our D is a sieve. Our 1st round pick can’t get on the field & neither can our 3rd rounder Jones. Other than our red zone efficiency, KK’s play calling has been poor. I have absolutely no concerns when it comes to Murray, but definitely concerned about KK & SK. No matter what, Joseph needs to go. This team will NEVER be a playoff team with Vance as the DC.

To be clear, you're saying you have no concerns that Murray will get it together, right? You aren't saying he actually played well recently, are you?

 

[PACardsFan]

To be clear, you're saying you have no concerns that Murray will get it together, right? You aren't saying he actually played well recently, are you?

Agreed. He hasn't played to his potential the last 2 games. Even having not played to expectations, he's on pace to score 44 touchdowns by a combination of his arm/legs. I was checking out where the teams we've played are ranked against the pass in the NFL:

SF - 2nd
Wash - 4th
Det - 11th
Car - 7th

Fyi, the Jets are ranked 15th against the pass, and 22nd against the run.

 

[phillycard]

Et tu, Brutus. I can't believe what I am reading, especially from Harry.

2 weeks ago we were on our way to the playoffs. Now everyone seems to be jumping ship. Holy Cow! Glad I didn't marry most of you. It wouldn't have lasted past a couple weeks.

Maybe you guys need some couples counselling. I have a opening for this Friday at 9:30 am, if you and Kliff are available.

SBF, maybe I haven't been logged on long enough, but I honestly don't feel that the general tone of the board was "postseason here we come". We got two good wins, in which we saw areas where we could have played better, and the opportunity with three beatable, not inferior teams, with a chance to be 5-0. In this league you need some breaks, and if you're able to seize upon them, you put yourself in a very good position to do some things when it gets late. I think most of the board felt as I did, that we were just happy with the opportunity, and excited to be 2-0, but mostly cautions in getting too excited. I never expected us to be in a position to be 2-3 and have lost to the Jets. That's where the angst comes from IMO. I know I for one will be beyond livid if we don't win this game on Sunday. You wanna talk jumping ship?? See me on Monday if that happens.

 

[PACardsFan]

I wasn't expecting Jackson or Mahomes, but I also wasn't expecting him to be worse than he finished last season.

Mahomes is Mahomes, but without a normal preseason, even Jackson hasn't played like last year. The Baltimore passing game is ranked 31st in the NFL. By the way, let's take a look at how the teams we've played are ranked defensively against the pass:

SF - 2nd
Wash - 4th
Det - 11th
Car - 7th

Before we completely criticize Murray, you need to understand that the competition has been solid when it comes to throwing the football against them. Even with Murray not playing his best, he's still on pace for 44 touchdowns by either his arm or legs. I've been watching this team since 1964 & don't recall any of our QB's combining for that many.

 

[ReasonableMan]

Have you not seen the Kyler bad decision thread with the All 22?

Look at these and tell me how it's the play calling?

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Exactly. I rewatched the game a little and the plays often have vertical passes built in. The real problem is Kyler needs some help on foot mechanics and going through his reads.

 

[BritCard]

Mahomes is Mahomes, but without a normal preseason, even Jackson hasn't played like last year. The Baltimore passing game is ranked 31st in the NFL. By the way, let's take a look at how the teams we've played are ranked defensively against the pass:

SF - 2nd
Wash - 4th
Det - 11th
Car - 7th

Before we completely criticize Murray, you need to understand that the competition has been solid when it comes to throwing the football against them. Even with Murray not playing his best, he's still on pace for 44 touchdowns by either his arm or legs. I've been watching this team since 1964 & don't recall any of our QB's combining for that many.

But this isn't Jackson's 2nd year, it's his 3rd. He opened up his 2nd season on fire. Anyway, that's bye the bye. I didn't expect him to to elite how the gate, but also didn't expect bad.

Also you list of ranking is what they are now, they are somewhat boosted by playing us. Before the game the Panthers were 25th in passing yards allowed to opponents, now they are 7th.

Justin Herbert put 330 yards on them in his 2nd NFL game.

Nobody is writing Kyler off, but the last 2 games he has been really poor. Which is concerning because neither team is anywhere near close to top tier.

 

[Chopper0080]

In the third video, it appears that 54 read the Oline and knew what was coming. As soon as he saw the Oline pulling to his side he turned and went in to make the tackle. It was almost like he knew what the play was going to be as soon as he saw the Humphries and Pugh pull out to setup blocking for the screen.



Agree with you Harry. In another post I pointed out that KK never was a winner in college yet Rhule was able to turn around two different programs in two years each. Kliff had six and couldn't do it. Posters used to defend Kliff by saying he didn't get top talent at TT so that's why he couldn't win in college yet I doubt Rhule had his pick of talent at Temple and Baylor yet was able to turn those programs into winning ones.

RE: the first statement...it is because the LBs have zero fear of Murray throwing the ball over their head and in front of the S. They are playing downhill uber-aggressively.

RE: the second statement.confirmation bias and veteran QB. Teddy Bridgewater outplayed Kyler Murray and it had little to do with the play calling. With Kliff, you are seeing what you want to see instead of a rookie NFL coach with a 2nd year QB who was drafted #1 with outlier size and a number of college starts that historically leads to busts. This is what an offense looks like when you take an inexperienced QB and let him learn at the NFL level.

 

[Chopper0080]

Quick thoughts. I thought the O-Line did a good job of pass defense, but no running lanes.

The SF win looks more like they beat a depleted team. They might finish last in the West.

If Murray is the problem, who chose him after years of observing his play and trying to recruit him?

I’m not saying this is the worst team ever. I’m saying I overrated them and the Niners. I’m sorry but what is better this year than the play the second half of last year? Where's the growth? Where’s the creativity?

I agree on Murray, but you scouted enough to know the validity of the concerns regarding his games started in college. That was a huge red flag. We are seeing what getting those learning reps at the NFL level looks like (IMO of course). Sometimes it isn't pretty and obviously when things go bad, the fundamentals break down.

 

[Chopper0080]

We are top 4 in the NFL in scoring TDs in the red zone and perfect on 4th down, but we have a broken scheme...I don't get where you all are getting this.

The red zone is where you see the scheme. Between the 20's is where you see how the QB is playing.

Our scheme is fine. Kliff is refining his playcalling overall. Murray is just struggling to adjust to how NFL defenses have adjusted to him.

R E L A X
(unless we are talking about Vanilla Vance Joseph and Isaiah Simmons, then you can lose your mind)

 

[BritCard]

We are top 4 in the NFL in scoring TDs in the red zone and perfect on 4th down, but we have a broken scheme...I don't get where you all are getting this.

The red zone is where you see the scheme. Between the 20's is where you see how the QB is playing.

Our scheme is fine. Kliff is refining his playcalling overall. Murray is just struggling to adjust to how NFL defenses have adjusted to him.

R E L A X
(unless we are talking about Vanilla Vance Joseph and Isaiah Simmons, then you can lose your mind)

I agree. During the game in the game thread I was murdering Kliff like everyone else but it really wasn't him. It must have been frustrating watching Kyler waive off open guys for a 3 yard checkdown and that just made it look like it was all Kliff.

It just so happens that the short yardage stuff works well in the EZ, picking up 4 here and 5 there eventually gets you to a TD. We just can't do that for 90 yards.

Out of interest. Can anyone remember the last time we threw a TD from outside the Red zone? Or indeed how many? I mean where Kyler threw an actual EZ shot, not Isabella's 70 yard run.

I think I can only remember 2. To DJ vs the Falcons from around the 30-35 yard line over Devondre Campbell. And one vs the Steelers from a similar distance, also DJ I think. Any others?

 

[Stout]

Kliff's "scheme" isn't working, nor is KM playing at all well, at the moment. The two certainly aren't mutually exclusive. It's not just one or the other; it's both, sadly.

 

[Chopper0080]

Kliff's "scheme" isn't working, nor is KM playing at all well, at the moment. The two certainly aren't mutually exclusive. It's not just one or the other; it's both, sadly.

Disagree. Again, you can't be 78% in the red zone scoring TDs and 100% on 4th down with a broken scheme. And Stout, you watch enough football to know those are the two most difficult areas/situations to be successful in the NFL. A broken scheme does not work better in more difficult situations. You don't hit better vs 100 mph fastball than you do vs a 70 mph fastball if you have bad technique.