A look back at the Upton trade after 2 years...

[GatorAZ]

Let's not forget the contract aspect to this trade. If we had Upton for the past three years, in all his .270 batting average & sub par fielding, we would have had to pay him. More importantly, if we wanted to keep Upton for this season and beyond, we would be out $137Mil. Buh bye, Greinke.

Upton was a 3+ WAR player well worth what those last 3 years paid him. He was never going to be extended.

 

[Phrazbit]

My point was that we were going nowhere fast with Upton...so we didn't go anywhere without him. Big deal.
I look at this trade as a longer term investment. We dumped him and the associated costs of keeping him, for much cheaper talent that is now (a mere 3 years later) starting to pay off.
It's a long term investment approach, not a day-trader's mentality. I'm cool with that...

Part of the reason we went no where without him is because we didn't get anything for him, and then we compounded that mistake by trying to fill the void the trade created with more bad moves.

It is great that Drury has panned out but we could have gotten him for a pittance of the cost if he was all we wanted. And if we're factoring in cost then all associated costs need to be included. If Towers hadn't been so deadlocked on that idiotic trade then we never end up with Prado's bad deal, we never end up with Ross' crap contract, we never trade for Trumbo.

So, if the "long term" approach is the lens you want to look at this through, because, finally, 3 years later we're getting SOMETHING out of it, then you also have to look at the other effects the trade had.

And I don't think you can ever call it a "mere 3 years" in the sporting world. This wasn't a franchise trying to rebuild when they traded Upton. That idiotic front office thought they'd built a contender, instead they were a punchline.

 

[DWKB]

My point was that we were going nowhere fast with Upton...so we didn't go anywhere without him. Big deal.
I look at this trade as a longer term investment. We dumped him and the associated costs of keeping him, for much cheaper talent that is now (a mere 3 years later) starting to pay off.
It's a long term investment approach, not a day-trader's mentality. I'm cool with that...

With this rational you'd be ok with trading Goldschmidt. In Upton's 4 years we at least went to the playoffs. If we don't make the LDS this year, Goldy matters even less.

Of course you'd balk at the idea and thus, your argument falls apart. I find the "we would have been last with him" to be the weakest of arguments regarding trade valuation.

 

[82CardsGrad]

With this rational you'd be ok with trading Goldschmidt. In Upton's 4 years we at least went to the playoffs. If we don't make the LDS this year, Goldy matters even less.

Of course you'd balk at the idea and thus, your argument falls apart. I find the "we would have been last with him" to be the weakest of arguments regarding trade valuation.

I know you're a strict sabre-metric guy... but, aside from Upton's nagging under-achievements at the plate, he was also not well-liked. Not "hated" as far as I could tell, but not much respected either...
The complete opposite is true of Goldy. So no, I would not at all be in favor of Goldy, who, not only garners immense respect throughout the clubhouse, but also has put up numbers Upton never did. And should I mention that Goldy came with a cost half of Upton?

So, I was and remain in favor of dumping Upton. Not only because his impact was minimal and rather inconsequential, not to mention well below expectations... but, he was becoming a pariah on the team. An enigma with little to no positive/productive relations and no respect.
As far as I'm concerned, what transpired after we dumped him (the 3 years) would've happened with very little difference had he remained on the team.
Good riddance. And welcome Brandon Drury!

 

[DWKB]

I know you're a strict sabre-metric guy... but, aside from Upton's nagging under-achievements at the plate, he was also not well-liked. Not "hated" as far as I could tell, but not much respected either...
The complete opposite is true of Goldy. So no, I would not at all be in favor of Goldy, who, not only garners immense respect throughout the clubhouse, but also has put up numbers Upton never did. And should I mention that Goldy came with a cost half of Upton?

So, I was and remain in favor of dumping Upton. Not only because his impact was minimal and rather inconsequential, not to mention well below expectations... but, he was becoming a pariah on the team. An enigma with little to no positive/productive relations and no respect.
As far as I'm concerned, what transpired after we dumped him (the 3 years) would've happened with very little difference had he remained on the team.
Good riddance. And welcome Brandon Drury!

But Upton has been well liked and respected in both the DBacks clubhouse and those since he left AZ. It was only the boss and fans such as yourself.

That doesn't answer your response about the results on the field, which makes Goldy just as fungible. Upton put up a 6+ WAR, which is comparable to Goldy. Uptons contract was reasonable and actually another reason he had value. All player pale compared to Goldy when it comes to contract vs value, but that didn't make Upton overpaid.

Upton's impact in AZ was far from minimal. An Upton led team got us a game away from the LDS, what has a Goldy led team got us?

I can't buy your premise on the result on the field, on Uptons worth or production, or on his professionalism. Simply put, there isn't a coherent argument that praises the Upton trade without implicitly suggesting Goldy and Pollock are traded as well. Only an emotional one, which isn't a way to run a ball club and why this team is a perpetual failure without a plan.

 

[82CardsGrad]

But Upton has been well liked and respected in both the DBacks clubhouse and those since he left AZ. It was only the boss and fans such as yourself.

Huh? Like I said, I wouldn't go so far as to say the guy was "hated", but I really don't think there is any debate about the fact that his time in AZ was over, period. And toward the end of his stay, his connection to the rest of the team was luke-warm at best...
And since he was traded from AZ, he's been on 3 other teams!! If he's such a great guy and such a productive player, why didn't ATL or SD hold onto him??

That doesn't answer your response about the results on the field, which makes Goldy just as fungible. Upton put up a 6+ WAR, which is comparable to Goldy. Uptons contract was reasonable and actually another reason he had value. All player pale compared to Goldy when it comes to contract vs value, but that didn't make Upton overpaid.

Upton's impact in AZ was far from minimal. An Upton led team got us a game away from the LDS, what has a Goldy led team got us?

I can't buy your premise on the result on the field, on Uptons worth or production, or on his professionalism. Simply put, there isn't a coherent argument that praises the Upton trade without implicitly suggesting Goldy and Pollock are traded as well. Only an emotional one, which isn't a way to run a ball club and why this team is a perpetual failure without a plan.

Yes, Upton was on the team that ONE year they won the west... Upton hit his career high 31 dingers that year, though still only managed 88 RBI. He also reached career highs in OBP (.369) and OPS (.898). That was his 4th full season in MLB.
By comparison, Goldy's reached career highs in just his second full season in the bigs with 36 dingers, 125 RBI. Then is his 4th full season, he reached career highs in OBP (.435), OPS (1.005) and batting average at .321. All numbers Upton never came close to matching or surpassing.
So, not sure what else Goldy could be doing. Upton had better talent around him. That said, I think it's fair to suggest that the 2016 Dbacks have enough talent to compete. What role Goldy plays this season will be interesting to watch, particularly since he is off to such a sluggish start.

 

[DWKB]

Huh? Like I said, I wouldn't go so far as to say the guy was "hated", but I really don't think there is any debate about the fact that his time in AZ was over, period. And toward the end of his stay, his connection to the rest of the team was luke-warm at best...
And since he was traded from AZ, he's been traded 2 more times! If he's such a great guy and such a productive player, why didn't ATL or SD hold onto him??

There's plenty of comments by his teammates and his managers, including Gibson, who talked extremely highly of Upton in the clubhouse. He was traded by Atl because they know when to rebuild unlike AZ. (BTW, their number 2 ranked minors system has 3 former DBacks in the top 10 prospects)

He was a FA when he signed with DET, not traded from SD.

Yes, Upton was on the team that ONE year they won the west... Upton hit his career high 31 dingers that year, though still only managed 88 RBI. He also reached career highs in OBP (.369) and OPS (.898). That was his 4th full season in MLB.
By comparison, Goldy's reached career highs in just his second full season in the bigs with 36 dingers, 125 RBI. Then is his 4th full season, he reached career highs in OBP (.435), OPS (1.005) and batting average at .321. All numbers Upton never came close to matching or surpassing.
So, not sure what else Goldy could be doing. Upton had better talent around him. That said, I think it's fair to suggest that the 2016 Dbacks have enough talent to compete. What role Goldy plays this season will be interesting to watch, particularly since he is off to such a sluggish start.

Going back to your original premise, it doesn't matter what Goldy has done since the team could have missed the playoffs with or without him.

Phrazbit has also made great points that the trade of Upton cause a domino effect of expensive and failed moves. How do you not factor that in any analysis?

The theme here is this team has done many many moves you've given thumbs up to and yet they've not done too well on the field. When do those two things get some reflection?

 

[82CardsGrad]

He was a FA when he signed with DET, not traded from SD.

I didn't claim SD traded him. They could've resigned him though... and they chose not to.

Going back to your original premise, it doesn't matter what Goldy has done since the team could have missed the playoffs with or without him.

This is 100% true.

Phrazbit has also made great points that the trade of Upton cause a domino effect of expensive and failed moves. How do you not factor that in any analysis?

I see it simply this way - Upton needed to go, period. In his last season with the team, it became abundantly clear that he would not be in the longer-term plans for this franchise. Was it all handled well... no. But I think anytime you have a high-profile talent with all those massive expectations about him, and who consistently underperformed and then is deemed not a part of the future plans, there are going to be challenges in terms of the separation.
Yea, it caused some collateral damage. But nothing catastrophic IMHO. And again, my position is that I'm happy with what we ended up with - TODAY.

The theme here is this team has done many many moves you've given thumbs up to and yet they've not done too well on the field. When do those two things get some reflection?

The Shelby Miller trade will likely go down as one of the worst in the history of this franchise. I honestly can't understand what they saw in Miller that would've made them comfy in coughing up what they did to get him. I was "ok" with the notion of taking this risk when the trade was announced. But I'll admit even being merely "ok" was totally off-base. This was a horrible, horrible trade.

 

[DWKB]

I didn't claim SD traded him. They could've resigned him though... and they chose not to.



This is 100% true.



I see it simply this way - Upton needed to go, period. In his last season with the team, it became abundantly clear that he would not be in the longer-term plans for this franchise. Was it all handled well... no. But I think anytime you have a high-profile talent with all those massive expectations about him, and who consistently underperformed and then is deemed not a part of the future plans, there are going to be challenges in terms of the separation.
Yea, it caused some collateral damage. But nothing catastrophic IMHO. And again, my position is that I'm happy with what we ended up with - TODAY.



The Shelby Miller trade will likely go down as one of the worst in the history of this franchise. I honestly can't understand what they saw in Miller that would've made them comfy in coughing up what they did to get him. I was "ok" with the notion of taking this risk when the trade was announced. But I'll admit even being merely "ok" was totally off-base. This was a horrible, horrible trade.

Look back, you said he was traded two times after AZ. He was not.

 

[GatorAZ]

Upton was a "pariah"? Thread should be locked before more embarrassment IMO.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Look back, you said he was traded two times after AZ. He was not.

Ooops! Nice catch... Still, SD could've resigned him but chose not to...

 

[DWKB]

Ooops! Nice catch... Still, SD could've resigned him but chose not to...

Again, cause they are not competing. DET through serious cash at him because they are.

 

[Dback Jon]

Again, cause they are not competing. DET through serious cash at him because they are.

Let's see:

Detroit, 15-17, 6 1/2 games out of first

Justin Upton

.220 BA, .259 OBP, .315 SLG

7 BB, 51K


All for $22.1 Million per year.

 

[DWKB]

Let's see:

Detroit, 15-17, 6 1/2 games out of first

Justin Upton

.220 BA, .259 OBP, .315 SLG

7 BB, 51K


All for $22.1 Million per year.

Yup, he's struggling, but if he ends up with his 4 WAR career average he's worth $22M.

This wasn't about his performance this early season though. It was about 82 questioning his professional character based upon the crap AZ sports gossip market of Owner Kendrick, President Hall, and the radio jock sniffers (along with your bf Montero, the real clubhouse cancer).

Read this article that mentions Gibson and Trammel regarding Upton and you cannot believe he was a clubhouse problem or lacked professionalism on the field.

http://www.espn.com.au/blog/detroit-tigers/post/_/id/1002/no-fuss-justin-upton-just-wants-to-win

 

[82CardsGrad]

Yup, he's struggling, but if he ends up with his 4 WAR career average he's worth $22M.

This wasn't about his performance this early season though. It was about 82 questioning his professional character based upon the crap AZ sports gossip market of Owner Kendrick, President Hall, and the radio jock sniffers (along with your bf Montero, the real clubhouse cancer).

Read this article that mentions Gibson and Trammel regarding Upton and you cannot believe he was a clubhouse problem or lacked professionalism on the field.

http://www.espn.com.au/blog/detroit-tigers/post/_/id/1002/no-fuss-justin-upton-just-wants-to-win

I really don't see much, if anything, in that article that touts his leadership skills, or his ability to build relationships and trust inside the clubhouse.
Look, I hope he's maturing and can one day find better success. But the reality is that some guys are natural leaders. Some guys have that "it" factor that draws other people to them. Some guys are able to be trusted, where other guys feel "safe" investing in a relationship. During his time in AZ, I don't believe Upton ever was that guy. IMHO, it was just the opposite. His non-verbals would often give off unhealthy, dysfunctional vibes.

I don't want to over-analyze this... truthfully, I'm not in the dugout so the heck really knows how others felt about Upton. I will say this though - character and ability to lead are usually fully exposed not in the good times, but when times are challenging...My recollections of Upton are that during the tough times, he didn't quite measure-up in terms of his leadership and relational abilities...

 

[DWKB]

I really don't see much, if anything, in that article that touts his leadership skills, or his ability to build relationships and trust inside the clubhouse.
Look, I hope he's maturing and can one day find better success. But the reality is that some guys are natural leaders. Some guys have that "it" factor that draws other people to them. Some guys are able to be trusted, where other guys feel "safe" investing in a relationship. During his time in AZ, I don't believe Upton ever was that guy. IMHO, it was just the opposite. His non-verbals would often give off unhealthy, dysfunctional vibes.

I don't want to over-analyze this... truthfully, I'm not in the dugout so the heck really knows how others felt about Upton. I will say this though - character and ability to lead are usually fully exposed not in the good times, but when times are challenging...My recollections of Upton are that during the tough times, he didn't quite measure-up in terms of his leadership and relational abilities...

I simply cannot reconcile your post with that article. You won't let go of your narrative. You want him to be something he wasn't and isn't, but there are no bad reports on Upton outside of what you heard from Gambo and your own biased eyes.

 

[AZ Native]

I really don't see much, if anything, in that article that touts his leadership skills, or his ability to build relationships and trust inside the clubhouse.
Look, I hope he's maturing and can one day find better success. But the reality is that some guys are natural leaders. Some guys have that "it" factor that draws other people to them. Some guys are able to be trusted, where other guys feel "safe" investing in a relationship. During his time in AZ, I don't believe Upton ever was that guy. IMHO, it was just the opposite. His non-verbals would often give off unhealthy, dysfunctional vibes.

I don't want to over-analyze this... truthfully, I'm not in the dugout so the heck really knows how others felt about Upton. I will say this though - character and ability to lead are usually fully exposed not in the good times, but when times are challenging...My recollections of Upton are that during the tough times, he didn't quite measure-up in terms of his leadership and relational abilities...

You can't argue with an 8 year old nerd with a laptop that has never watched a baseball game, thus will argue with you about what someone's WAR might end up being. Stats are nice, but meaningless without watching the game play out. I just laugh at them and move on. It's all good, at least they care enough to post, no matter how misguided they are.

 

[Phrazbit]

The idea that Upton was a cancer is a bunch of hooey. And I think that ANYONE who buys it should look back at that front office's track record of throwing virtually everyone they decided to trade under the bus. Upton was a stand out citizen, who put up very solid numbers (especially factored for his age) for every year except his last one, and in that year he played through a hand injury (which he probably shouldn't have but out classless FO decided to act as though he was dogging it).

I find absolutely ZERO reason to believe anything that FO had to say about a player. Furthermore, Gambo's clubhouse "source" we've pretty well established as being Miggy... who also made a habit of throwing people under the bus and aggrandizing himself. IMO (and it sounds as though it has been affirmed by other parties) Miggy was the cancer.

So, Upton didn't HAVE to go "period". It was a false narrative put forth by a laughably incompetent GM. The dragged his name through the mud for nearly two years and he literally said NOTHING, he handled it with the utmost professionalism. How many guys would keep their mouth shut and not air the dirty laundry to the press when the FO is bad mouthing you and they tried to trade you to a team that was on your "no-trade" list?

And besides... that is all ancillary. Ignoring ALL those factors, we still got laughably fleeced, trading a guy putting up all-star production in his prime for what has turned out to be... a long term 3rdbase project that we could have had for a fraction of the price. Literally the toss in part of the larger trade. It was dumb luck that we ended up getting something out of it. All the main factors blew up on our face.

And, as I've said repeatedly, it was the first move in a cascade of stupidity. All of it a direct result of how badly and how quickly the trade blew up in on them. People are sitting here bringing up what Upton is getting paid right now... and ignoring all the collateral costs in salary to trash players like Prado and Ross, trading more value in Skaggs (who has been derailed by injury) and Eaton (who we'd absolutely kill to have on the team right now) for a trainwreck like Trumbo. Any attempt to apply logic to the Upton trade goes out the window when the Trumbo acquisition is factored in. People cite Upton's strikeouts and fielding as reasons he needed to go, then a year later the idiot architects of that trade, swap even more valuable parts for a guy who was so bad in the field that he couldn't play in the NL and struck out at a rate nearly that of Mark Reynolds.

Hooray, 3 years later we have a decent 3rd baseman! Suuuure, in the interim our team was terrible, they became a punch line, they threw away a bunch of good players and spent like 60 million in salary on players that were flat out trash.

IMO, it takes some absurd homer logic to not see how utterly disastrous that trade was.

 

[DWKB]

You can't argue with an 8 year old nerd with a laptop that has never watched a baseball game, thus will argue with you about what someone's WAR might end up being. Stats are nice, but meaningless without watching the game play out. I just laugh at them and move on. It's all good, at least they care enough to post, no matter how misguided they are.

Raise your hand if you've worked for a Major League Baseball team....



I'm guessing your hand is still down.

 

[Phrazbit]

You can't argue with an 8 year old nerd with a laptop that has never watched a baseball game, thus will argue with you about what someone's WAR might end up being. Stats are nice, but meaningless without watching the game play out. I just laugh at them and move on. It's all good, at least they care enough to post, no matter how misguided they are.

Uh huh. It doesn't take even a basic understanding of simple math to understand that the Dbacks had a very bad record the last 3 years.

But I'm sure dumping a measurably good player for essentially nothing, and then panicking and trading even MORE quality players (for more trash) had nothing at all to do with it.

Those idiots and their math! Let's bring KT BACK!

That is about as diplomatic I can be in response to such an inane post. You act as though you're rubbing some grand result in the faces of anyone who could denounce this trade... while ignoring years of complete and utter embarrassment.

 

[AZ Native]

Inane post? NO, that belongs to the person who said Chip Hale is the most competent manager the Diamondbacks have ever had.

 

[Avondale Red Rage]

San Diego signed Upton with expectations of making a run. If we could of kept Upton around at Goldy's price, he'd still be here. But he's cashing in on his talent, and every team he's been on has under-achieved. Don't care what his stats are, all I know is he's never appeared to care about taking his game to the level he was capable of, and each team he's been on, was hoping for.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[AZ Native]

Raise your hand if you've worked for a Major League Baseball team....



I'm guessing your hand is still down.

No, it's not. I have watched baseball games probably twice as long as you have been alive. Teams usually hire seniors and youngsters to catch foul balls on the field. I sit on the right side of the field, I am guessing you are on the left.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The idea that Upton was a cancer is a bunch of hooey. And I think that ANYONE who buys it should look back at that front office's track record of throwing virtually everyone they decided to trade under the bus. Upton was a stand out citizen, who put up very solid numbers (especially factored for his age) for every year except his last one, and in that year he played through a hand injury (which he probably shouldn't have but out classless FO decided to act as though he was dogging it).

I find absolutely ZERO reason to believe anything that FO had to say about a player. Furthermore, Gambo's clubhouse "source" we've pretty well established as being Miggy... who also made a habit of throwing people under the bus and aggrandizing himself. IMO (and it sounds as though it has been affirmed by other parties) Miggy was the cancer.

So, Upton didn't HAVE to go "period". It was a false narrative put forth by a laughably incompetent GM. The dragged his name through the mud for nearly two years and he literally said NOTHING, he handled it with the utmost professionalism. How many guys would keep their mouth shut and not air the dirty laundry to the press when the FO is bad mouthing you and they tried to trade you to a team that was on your "no-trade" list?

And besides... that is all ancillary. Ignoring ALL those factors, we still got laughably fleeced, trading a guy putting up all-star production in his prime for what has turned out to be... a long term 3rdbase project that we could have had for a fraction of the price. Literally the toss in part of the larger trade. It was dumb luck that we ended up getting something out of it. All the main factors blew up on our face.

And, as I've said repeatedly, it was the first move in a cascade of stupidity. All of it a direct result of how badly and how quickly the trade blew up in on them. People are sitting here bringing up what Upton is getting paid right now... and ignoring all the collateral costs in salary to trash players like Prado and Ross, trading more value in Skaggs (who has been derailed by injury) and Eaton (who we'd absolutely kill to have on the team right now) for a trainwreck like Trumbo. Any attempt to apply logic to the Upton trade goes out the window when the Trumbo acquisition is factored in. People cite Upton's strikeouts and fielding as reasons he needed to go, then a year later the idiot architects of that trade, swap even more valuable parts for a guy who was so bad in the field that he couldn't play in the NL and struck out at a rate nearly that of Mark Reynolds.

Hooray, 3 years later we have a decent 3rd baseman! Suuuure, in the interim our team was terrible, they became a punch line, they threw away a bunch of good players and spent like 60 million in salary on players that were flat out trash.

IMO, it takes some absurd homer logic to not see how utterly disastrous that trade was.

Never said Upton was a cancer. You can be an ineffective or missing in action leader and still not be a cancer.

 

[DWKB]

No, it's not. I have watched baseball games probably twice as long as you have been alive. Teams usually hire seniors and youngsters to catch foul balls on the field. I sit on the right side of the field, I am guessing you are on the left.

Thats what I thought. One of us has been paid by a MLB team for their perspectives and the other one is an old fool with his foot in his mouth.