a thought about Marion

[jibikao]

Wrong. Again.

Game 1: 23-16-8
Game 2: 15-12-4
Game 3: 17-11-5
Game 4: 14-11-7

Now, the gameplan is a bit different with putting him in the post to attack Marion and bigs, but to say he was a no show is ridiculous. You didn't see him working Marion over during the regular season, but that wasn't the gameplan then...we tried to run with you then and it obviously didn't work.

And this is Lamar's first year in the Tri...he's going to be extremely good in the system.

Nobody who watches the Lakers closely would be surprised at Odom's play in this series thus far, especially when Phil basically said that this is how he'd play him in the series.

NO, YOU ARE WRONG. I SAID Odom was no show 'cause he wasn't the big factor in those regular season games. I don't really care about game 4 but for the first 3 games, Lamar wasn't a factor. Maybe you forgot to check out your beloved Laker forums. I saw nothing but "trade Odom" threads. Don't come here and give me BS that "Odom has been this good for so long!". You know Odom has performed really well for the past 2 games. Don't give me BS that "Oh, it's not a surprise at all!". That's total BS.

Odom wasn't a factor in the regular season games because the gameplan was Kobe, Kobe, and Kobe. That's your team's 3 options. I said he was no-show but I didn't say he sucks. He is very talented and I do think he has performed better than Marion so far. Dude, stop protecting your Laker so aimlessly and over-gloriying everything.

 

[Chaplin]

Could you imagine the following lineup?

Nash
Bell
Diaw
Garnett
Amare (hopefully)

On the record, I would love to trade for Garnett--that lineup is sick. And we can go through all sorts of scenarios with Minnesota, but I think the simple fact is that a trade for Garnett will never happen with the Phoenix Suns.

If it does happen, I'll gladly eat crow, but it won't happen. I don't even think Barbosa, Marion and two picks is even legal.

 

[JS22]

And you'd take Marion over Odom...shocking!!

I prefer a guy who can score at will from both outside and inside, post up, defend with length, create his own shot, rebound and dissect defenses with precise passing, playing SF, PG, PF, C, whatever needed at a high level and is unselfish to the core (almost to a fault). ESPECIALLY in the triangle. Marion would be a disaster in the triangle.

And FWIW, you have Suns fans complaining about Marion disappearing in the playoffs...I don't know the validity of that, but that's not something that LO is knocked for..yes, LO has limited playoff experience, but he played very well in those games.

At this point, if it were financially possible, I would trade Marion straight up for Odom. Odom has a game BUILT for the Suns system. I'm getting tired of Marion putting up good numbers in the regular season, bitching about "getting no respect" , and then completely falling apart every year in the playoffs.

 

[jibikao]

At this point, if it were financially possible, I would trade Marion straight up for Odom. Odom has a game BUILT for the Suns system. I'm getting tired of Marion putting up good numbers in the regular season, bitching about "getting no respect" , and then completely falling apart every year in the playoffs.

Funny how Laker fans said they would love to have Marion when Lamar struggled...or when Kobe dominated the ball so much.

Personally, I would pick Lamar over Marion at this point. Lamar can give us a legit 2nd option on offense. He has post up games and he can shoot sometimes. Marion doesn't give us that 2nd option. His offense is extremely limited when he doesn't get fast break chance or put-back points. Teams box him out really well in playoffs and it comes no surprise that he struggles against Spurs.

Edit: But hey, if we have Amare, Marion doesn't need to post up. The scoring load will be on Amare and Marion can just do his little things which he does so well. This is what happens when your franchise player gets injured. sigh... nothing looks perfect.

 

[Chaplin]

At this point, if it were financially possible, I would trade Marion straight up for Odom. Odom has a game BUILT for the Suns system. I'm getting tired of Marion putting up good numbers in the regular season, bitching about "getting no respect" , and then completely falling apart every year in the playoffs.

No thanks. The guy has to at least get us to the playoffs first, and Marion is easily the better player to do that than Odom, who still has yet to prove he isn't a headcase anymore.

 

[elindholm]

If (a Garnett to Phoenix trade) does happen, I'll gladly eat crow, but it won't happen. I don't even think Barbosa, Marion and two picks is even legal.

What do you mean? What would be illegal about it? The Suns would still have their own first-round pick in this summer's draft, and the salaries are close enough.

 

[Chaplin]

If (a Garnett to Phoenix trade) does happen, I'll gladly eat crow, but it won't happen. I don't even think Barbosa, Marion and two picks is even legal.

What do you mean? What would be illegal about it? The Suns would still have their own first-round pick in this summer's draft, and the salaries are close enough.

According to RealGM, that is not true.

 

[D-Dogg]

NO, YOU ARE WRONG. I SAID Odom was no show 'cause he wasn't the big factor in those regular season games. I don't really care about game 4 but for the first 3 games, Lamar wasn't a factor. Maybe you forgot to check out your beloved Laker forums. I saw nothing but "trade Odom" threads. Don't come here and give me BS that "Odom has been this good for so long!". You know Odom has performed really well for the past 2 games. Don't give me BS that "Oh, it's not a surprise at all!". That's total BS.

Odom wasn't a factor in the regular season games because the gameplan was Kobe, Kobe, and Kobe. That's your team's 3 options. I said he was no-show but I didn't say he sucks. He is very talented and I do think he has performed better than Marion so far. Dude, stop protecting your Laker so aimlessly and over-gloriying everything.

First things first, easy on the caps lock. Seriously. Don't pop a vein.

Second, how is second leading scorer and leading rebounder not a factor in each of those games? You really got me there.

Third, yes there were a ton of trade odom threads by dolts on Lakers forums. There are a lot of idiots who thought we should have kept Shaq. Lamar struggled with the offense for most of the year, and a lot of people rode him without mercy. However, you'll note that I said that post-all star break he's come into his own and gets the offense. You'll also be good to note that even the dolts who wanted him traded were excited about him before the playoffs began. He changed minds. Bear in mind that there are a ton of forum posters who think we can trade Sasha for KG straight up. You aren't going to sway me with chatter from idiots on a Lakers board.

Fourth, you should note I said those who watch the Lakers closely wouldn't be surprised...not those who don't know basketball and yell and scream about players when the don't even know how to recogize the offensive sets. The latter is most basketball fans.

Fifth, I told you already that the gameplan was going to be different for the playoff games than for the regular season...when Phil says we are going to use Lamar a lot, listen. I am 100% not suprised with the way he's playing in this series. Now, if he hadn't played this well since the All-Star break, I'd be surprised. But since he's rolling, clicking with the offense and now being a focal point of the gameplan, you'd have to be delusional to not forsee him doing very well.

How about I propose you a deal....I don't try to break down the style and play of your team and their tendancies, understanding of the offense, etc. and you don't try to tell me about the Lakers. I'm pretty sure you know a billion times more about Raja Bell than I do...and I know a billion times more about my team. Cruising Lakers boards and reading their tripe while checking out a few Laker games is not going to give you the information you need.

 

[D-Dogg]

Funny how Laker fans said they would love to have Marion when Lamar struggled...or when Kobe dominated the ball so much.

I've never said that. I have some terrible dislike for him, for no good reason.

 

[jibikao]

First things first, easy on the caps lock. Seriously. Don't pop a vein.

Second, how is second leading scorer and leading rebounder not a factor in each of those games? You really got me there.

Third, yes there were a ton of trade odom threads by dolts on Lakers forums. There are a lot of idiots who thought we should have kept Shaq. Lamar struggled with the offense for most of the year, and a lot of people rode him without mercy. However, you'll note that I said that post-all star break he's come into his own and gets the offense. You'll also be good to note that even the dolts who wanted him traded were excited about him before the playoffs began. He changed minds. Bear in mind that there are a ton of forum posters who think we can trade Sasha for KG straight up. You aren't going to sway me with chatter from idiots on a Lakers board.

Fourth, you should note I said those who watch the Lakers closely wouldn't be surprised...not those who don't know basketball and yell and scream about players when the don't even know how to recogize the offensive sets. The latter is most basketball fans.

Fifth, I told you already that the gameplan was going to be different for the playoff games than for the regular season...when Phil says we are going to use Lamar a lot, listen. I am 100% not suprised with the way he's playing in this series. Now, if he hadn't played this well since the All-Star break, I'd be surprised. But since he's rolling, clicking with the offense and now being a focal point of the gameplan, you'd have to be delusional to not forsee him doing very well.

How about I propose you a deal....I don't try to break down the style and play of your team and their tendancies, understanding of the offense, etc. and you don't try to tell me about the Lakers. I'm pretty sure you know a billion times more about Raja Bell than I do...and I know a billion times more about my team. Cruising Lakers boards and reading their tripe while checking out a few Laker games is not going to give you the information you need.

You are doing it again dude. Remember you started a thread stating "Tim Thomas, an honest man"?? You started the thread giving congrats to Tim Thomas even though the GIST of the thread is to show that if that was called, Kobe would have 2 FT and maybe, just maybe Laker could be within 2pt. You started that thread with a "hidden purpose" to rub it in our face. Either you believe it or not, it seems that way to some of us. We don't need you to tell us how TT got away with a foul. His honesty is stupid at best. Confess that you play some physical defense???

Then when some of us say Odom has played really well (including me), you come here and say "that's not a suprise at all.". Dude, stop it. You don't need to rub it in any chance you have. You are not a Sun fan and obviously you don't take the message the same way some of us do. This thread is bashing Marion and you think glorifying Odom would make things more pleasant? We all know Marion's weakness and Odom's improvement in the playoff IS a surprise to me. What more do you want? Ok, I"ll say it: Odom is the MVP in this 1st round series so far. Kobe hasn't done anything special except giving the ball to Odom more who caused more trouble to us than we imagined. You like this? Is this the kind of compliment you want on Odom?

 

[jibikao]

I've never said that. I have some terrible dislike for him, for no good reason.

I didn't say it's you. It's from Lakerground.

 

[Joe Mama]

I wouldn't take Odom over Marion, not by a long shot, but so far Odom has been the better player in this series.

I can definitely agree with that sentiment, 100%.

Marion has been playing at an All-Star level for 5 years. Odom can't even begin to claim that. And they were drafted during the same year (Odom at #4, Marion at #9 in 1999).

I'm not debating that Odom is a good player or not. When his head is into it, I think he's a terrific player. Just not as good as Shawn Marion--and history proves that point.

it's as if you are arguing my point for me. Nowhere did I say that Lamar Odom is a better player than Shawn Marion. He's not... at least not during the regular season. But that's not because he has less talent or is less skilled than Shawn Marion.

In fact Lamar Odom has better size, and he's more skilled than Shawn Marion. He dribbles much better. He passes much better. He has a better shot, and when he puts forth the effort he's at least as good defensively. the problem was Lamar Odom and a lot of other really talented players is that they don't have the heart and/or motor of a guy like Shawn Marion.

Make no mistake though. Lamar Odom is outplaying Shawn Marion because it's the playoffs, so he's trying every bit as hard as someone like Shawn Marion. He has better size and better talent, and now that the intensity is matched he's been the better player in the series.

Please don't mistake this for Shawn Marion bashing. it's not.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

Shawn Marion is a great player because he works hard, and he's extremely athletic. Make no mistake though. Lamar Odom is a much more talented player. If he worked as hard a Shawn Marion on a nightly basis he would be a top 10 player in the league... no question.

Joe

Joe--am I not reading this correctly? Perhaps I implied more than what was there, but simple sentence comprehension dictates that you think that Odom is a better player.

 

[Mike Olbinski]

Joe--am I not reading this correctly? Perhaps I implied more than what was there, but simple sentence comprehension dictates that you think that Odom is a better player.

LOL...how can you not get his point?

 

[jibikao]

Technicially speaking, if Amare is playing, Marion is only the 3rd option while Lamar is the 2nd option on Laker's.

This series isn't over and Marion has at least 5 more games left to prove he is playoff worthy.

 

[D-Dogg]

I didn't say it's you. It's from Lakerground.

Well that says it all then, Lakersground isn't exactly a trusted opinion source of intelligent fans. There are a lot there, but a lot more over-emotional fans who don't really understand the game. See the post previous for the explanation of that. I have the feeling you just blew right through what I wrote, given your response.


And I have to admit, I did once call for Odom's head, but I'm trying to block out the memory. It was the Sacramento game we were winning by 5 with about 30 seconds left, full shot clock and he drives and gets called for the charge with about 18 left on the shot clock. Sac comes down, hits a quick three. End up in OT, and we lose. Then come play Phoenix in Phoenix the next day.

One of the worst losses I've ever seen, and it was regular season which I usually dont get to worked up about. I about lost my mind.

He's still prone to doing some of that stuff from time to time, but he learned a lot from that game. That too, was pre-All Star break.

 

[Chaplin]

LOL...how can you not get his point?

Typical Mike, READ the damn post... I understand you agree with him that Odom is much more talented, but why not just say that?

 

[D-Dogg]

Don't come here and give me BS that "Odom has been this good for so long!". You know Odom has performed really well for the past 2 games. Don't give me BS that "Oh, it's not a surprise at all!". That's total BS.

I posted the quote below on April 20th in the ESPN must be joking thread on this forum. I'm putting it here now to show you that yes, I pinned my concerns for this series on whether Lamar and Kwame could keep up thier stellar play late in the season, or if the playoff pressure would get to them. I'm not suprised LO is doing his thing, but I am happy to see that he's also calm under pressure.

Kwame, and I love him to death, isn't at the level he was at, and he's feeling a bit of pressure. Still much better than he was early in the year.

http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=972095#post972095

I am concerned to see if Kwame and Lamar continue their play of the last 20 games. If they play like they have been, we have an excellent chance of winning. If playoff pressure gets to either of them, then we will be in trouble.

The Lakers are a team that is peaking, is confident in the offense and is playing some of its best basketball of the season, and has a terrific postseason coach in Phil. Heck, the Lakers have a better record than Denver, which due to the idiot NBA seeding system, gets a three seed over both LA teams and a freaking 60 win team.

Seven games is not outside the realm of possibility, nor is a Lakers win. Not seeing that possibility is absurd.

I don't BS, jib. Just thought you should know that.

 

[elindholm]

According to RealGM, that is not true.

Sorry, I still don't know what you mean. I ran it on RealGM (just the players, not the picks) and it came out fine.

In any case, the teams could also agree on a deal, have the Suns make a pick according to the Wolves' instructions, and then make it official after the draft. Then the draft pick would be included in the salary calculations, which would make them even closer.

Of course such a trade is unlikely, but I don't see any reason that it literally couldn't happen.

 

[Chaplin]

Hmm, you're right--I was preoccupied with those pseudo numbers that RealGm assigns to salary figures--Garnett's is 20 points higher than Shawn's and Leandro only has a 4.2.

 

[elindholm]

Well, remember that they changed the rule starting last summer, so now the salaries have to be only within 25%. That makes things a lot easier.

 

[sunsfn]

The Suns will never trade for Garnett............Sarver would choke if he heard what he would have to pay Garnett for the next few years! Sarver would do it only if the league let him carry 12 players instead of 15 on the roster...

20,000,000
22,000,000
24,000,000
----------------
66,000

Marion,
15,000,000
16,000,000
17,000,000
--------------
48,000,000

I had to add the extra zeros, damn that is a lot of money.........!

 

[hsandhu]

The Suns will never trade for Garnett............Sarver would choke if he heard what he would have to pay Garnett for the next few years! Sarver would do it only if the league let him carry 12 players instead of 15 on the roster...

20,000
22,000
24,000
----------------
66,000

Marion,
15,000
16,000
17,000
--------------
48,000

Yes, but if barbosa is in the deal, you're not only saving the money he makes now, but the money he would make on an extension. Also kurt thomas could be included (two years left on his contract, so minny might do that).

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Would you go as high as Marion, Barbosa, this year's Lakers pick, and next year's Hawks pick? The Wolves won't want Jones, and they'll want help in at least two upcoming drafts.

The only reason I would say no to that is because I want Marion to retire a Sun for sentimental reasons.

That is one of the best trade possibilities that Minnesota will get for KG. I wouldn't open with offering the Atlanta pick, but I wouldn't let it be a deal breaker.....

And this isn't just because of this series -- I have maintained almost all season that I would pull most deals to land KG.

 

[sunsfn]

Yes, but if barbosa is in the deal, you're not only saving the money he makes now, but the money he would make on an extension. Also kurt thomas could be included (two years left on his contract, so minny might do that).

Barbosa is not going anywhere, forget that. They may trade Thomas, and that would clear up a bunch.

But that is my point, 18,000,000 mil tied up in one player, how do you pay the other 14 players? They would have to be a number of scrubs for sure and if an injury occured, we would be in trouble again.

Sarver would have signed Joe Johnson to 50,000,000 two years ago if he was into spending money. Johnson is what we are missing in these playoffs, a shooter who can create his own shot whenever he wants to.

I see the suns looking for a shooter in the upcoming draft and not a big man with Amare and Thomas coming back. (If there is one there)