a thought about Marion

[thegrahamcrackr]

I waited a day to respond to this, all I can say is "WOW".

I did not expect that kind of response from you. I guess that means if someone does not agree with you, then try to degrade them to win the arguement.

I let it slip which wasn't like me. The first part wasn't necessary at all.

With that being said - it just frustrates me that you refuse to recognize any points that people have made about Sarver's spending habits. On top of that, you refuse to acknowledge that a KG deal actually saves the Suns money.

Call it a frustrated outlash - my apologies.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap -

Chad is saying that Shawn Marion is a better player, but Lamar Odom has a better skill set and body build.

The difference is that Shawn Marion makes up for his deficiencies with constant effort.

The problem is that when Lamar decides to turn it on, as he has in this series - he becomes the better player than Shawn Marion.

Over the long run, it is better to have Marion. There is a reason why he is a 3 time all star. However, in the current short run of this first round series - where Odom is putting forth a lot of effort - it is better to have Lamar Odom.

Fair enough, although I think you might be missing some of my own points. Lamar Odom is definitely a bigger guy, and is a better basketball body for what he tries to do. No arguement there. As for a better skill set, there is no basis for that other than he's bigger. Shawn Marion is a better rebounder and scorer, regardless of how big they both are. He is also better defensively.

Now, you started mentioning THIS series, and I agree wholeheartedly that Lamar Odom has been the better player. No question about it. But that means nothing in the scheme of things. Steve Nash has outplayed Kobe Bryant in this series, but that doesn't mean he's better than Kobe.

My issue is the theory that Lamar Odom is a much more skilled player than Shawn Marion, and there has been nothing to prove that fact other than Odom is a little bit bigger than Shawn. If you take the Odom of this series and match him up with the Shawn Marion of the regular season, do you still say that Odom is better? I can't honestly say that. There were many times this season where Marion was plain unstoppable. Sure, he could and did get taken out of his game at various points, but nothing like how Odom is.

We can all postulate that Odom will be better than Kevin Garnett, Shawn Marion or Jermaine O'Neal, but that is based on his physical attributes and the occasional good game sandwiched in-between games where he just doesn't show up.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Odom as a player. If I had to choose who to have on my team based on this series, well, Odom certainly has looked a lot better than Shawn. But overall, I can't say that because I firmly believe that Shawn Marion is better in almost every aspect of the game except for the low-post area.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Lamar Odom is a better 3 point shooter by over 4 percent, and he doesn't get anything close to the looks that Marion gets.

He is a MUCH better passer (this has always been a problem with Marion's game). Granted the offense runs through him, but he gets almost 4 more assists than Marion.

His ball handling is much better too. A lot of that is probably because Marion has very small hands, which makes controlling the ball in traffic a lot harder.

Like you said, the low post game isn't even comparable.

Lamar is just a major offensive threat all over the court.


To be honest, Odom and Marion isn't a very good comparison because their skill set is so different. A better comparison is Odom and Diaw, and Odom has the edge on Diaw right now (but I think Diaw will catch up very quickly).

Would you say that Boris has a greater skill set than Marion?

 

[Chaplin]

Lamar Odom is a better 3 point shooter by over 4 percent, and he doesn't get anything close to the looks that Marion gets.

He is a MUCH better passer (this has always been a problem with Marion's game). Granted the offense runs through him, but he gets almost 4 more assists than Marion.

His ball handling is much better too. A lot of that is probably because Marion has very small hands, which makes controlling the ball in traffic a lot harder.

Like you said, the low post game isn't even comparable.

Lamar is just a major offensive threat all over the court.


To be honest, Odom and Marion isn't a very good comparison because their skill set is so different. A better comparison is Odom and Diaw, and Odom has the edge on Diaw right now (but I think Diaw will catch up very quickly).

Would you say that Boris has a greater skill set than Marion?

The problem comes from how important each of these skills are. Is the fact that Odom shoots 3's better than Marion a major difference? No, because Marion usually will take a lot more of them. Passing, ball handling, the degree that each of these players need to have in these skills is different. Marion's strength in rebounding IMO is equal to Odom's strength in passing, for example.

I do agree that the Diaw/Odom comparison is more realistic, and I also agree that Odom is a better player than Diaw.

I think Boris has a larger set of skills, yes, but he isn't really better than Shawn in any of them save passing.

 

[JS22]

I was going to say the same thing. Marion has been a big favorite of mine for awhile, but all this complaining he's doing is really turning me off.

Welcome to the Dark Side, Chap. I've been a HUGE Marion fan since his UNLV days - but the constant "me against the world" attitude is getting old, as well as the vanishing act in the playoffs.

 

[slinslin]

Trade Marion for...

1. Kevin Garnett (in a package with Barbosa and either Bell or Thomas)


2. Rashard Lewis, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Brad Miller

 

[SirStefan32]

Nobody's gonna take a no-show Shawn Marion.

 

[Chaplin]

Nobody's gonna take a no-show Shawn Marion.

3 games aren't going to hurt his trade value that much.

 

[cly2tw]

Surprise, surprise, come playoff time, so many are on the Marion-suck bandwagon.^^

I have seemed to be the only consistent "Marion-hater" on this board. but I have to say you guys are unfair to him now. He has never changed the way he plays. His statistical success comes mainly with the system's success. Once the opposing team can effectively take the abundance of space away from Suns offense which is quite likely to happen in the playoffs, he won't be as effective. That's the reason I rank him below Artest and Kirilenko despite better regular season stats. And for playoffs, I'd also take Pierce and Hamilton or even Prince over him, not to mention Odom. We need at least one, preferrably two, player who'd punish the opponent if not double-teamed to feel comfortable in playoffs. Against us, the Lakers seem to have at least 3 in Kobe, Odom, and Brown.

So, for regular season, Marion is worth his contract, but if we want to win championships, the salary slot of 14 mil. maybe better used on other players. At least, TT seems to be no less valuable so far than Marion.

 

[cly2tw]

Also, Odom would be a perennial all star if he took Marion's position on the Suns team.

 

[jibikao]

Trade Marion for...

1. Kevin Garnett (in a package with Barbosa and either Bell or Thomas)


2. Rashard Lewis, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Brad Miller

I would keep Bell. I won't miss Barbosa. Game 1 is just a fluke when Laker wasn't paying attention to him.

I like Bell. His offense is unreliable but that's not what we got him for. When Amare comes back, we won't be shooting 3pt all night long.

 

[Chaplin]

Also, Odom would be a perennial all star if he took Marion's position on the Suns team.

Let's not get carried away, Odom has had PLENTY of opportunities in his career to be great. He has consistently been the #1 or #2 guy in every place he's played.

 

[Joe Mama]

Let's not get carried away, Odom has had PLENTY of opportunities in his career to be great. He has consistently been the #1 or #2 guy in every place he's played.

do you honestly believe Shawn Marion would have been an All-Star playing for the LA Clippers? Besides, an All-Star is an indication of regular-season play. Most of us are conceding that Shawn Marion is a very good regular-season player. It's the postseason when everybody steps up their effort that Marion drops off.

The problem comes from how important each of these skills are. Is the fact that Odom shoots 3's better than Marion a major difference? No, because Marion usually will take a lot more of them. Passing, ball handling, the degree that each of these players need to have in these skills is different. Marion's strength in rebounding IMO is equal to Odom's strength in passing, for example.

I do agree that the Diaw/Odom comparison is more realistic, and I also agree that Odom is a better player than Diaw.

I think Boris has a larger set of skills, yes, but he isn't really better than Shawn in any of them save passing.

During the regular season Shawn Marion averaged 11.8 rpg. In this playoff series he's grabbing just 7.7 rpg. During the regular season Lamar Odom averaged 9.2 rpg, but in this series so far he's grabbing 12.2 rpg. So please explain to me how this doesn't fall into the same boat as the other statistics. If he's so much more skilled than Odom at rebounding why has he been killed on the boards in the first three games of this series? It's not for a lack of effort. Shawn Marion wants to prove his detractors wrong.

Shawn Marion is not a skilled scorer. If you think he is I have to wonder which team you've been watching for the last six years. He gets his points. He averaged more points than Lamar Odom during the regular season, but he is not as skilled offensively. Shawn Marion cannot take a decent defender off the dribble in an ISO situation. He isn't a great outside shooter. his post up skills are average at best, and he's too small to post up most people at his position.

As cotton Fitzsimmons used to say, Shawn Marion is a dirt worker. He does all the little things. He's a very good team player. Unfortunately when he's expected to be the second option in the playoffs that doesn't win games.

Finally, Lamar Odom is every bit as skilled as Shawn Marion defensively. This comes down to effort again. Now that he is putting forth his full effort in the playoffs he has been every bit as good a Shawn Marion defensively. In fact because of his size he's been better. Shawn Marion's size has been a problem.

I actually think Lamar Odom would surprise a lot of people in the Phoenix Suns system. He would fit in here wonderfully. Let's face it. Most players do look better here. I think Rashard Lewis would put up huge numbers here as well. He might not rebound almost 12 per game, but he would shoot 45% from three and cause mismatches in the post. KG would put up ridiculous numbers here.

Joe Mama

Oh yeah, one last thing... I think D'Antoni fully appreciates Shawn Marion, but he gets real tired of the griping about respect, touches, etc.. I've got to believe that Mike would wet his pants if he could get a player like Kevin Garnett. I don't think he would have too much trouble parting with Shawn Marion if the package was right.

 

[Mike Olbinski]

Shawn Marion is not a skilled scorer. If you think he is I have to wonder which team you've been watching for the last six years. He gets his points. He averaged more points than Lamar Odom during the regular season, but he is not as skilled offensively. Shawn Marion cannot take a decent defender off the dribble in an ISO situation. He isn't a great outside shooter. his post up skills are average at best, and he's too small to post up most people at his position.

As cotton Fitzsimmons used to say, Shawn Marion is a dirt worker. He does all the little things. He's a very good team player. Unfortunately when he's expected to be the second option in the playoffs that doesn't win games.

THat's what I've been trying to say here too...he is NOT that skilled on offense...he can't create his own shot.

He is a like a suped-up role player...and with Amare back next year, and with Nash and Diaw, Marion will again be awesome to have.

If we had Amare right now, I think Marion would be having a good series.

 

[jibikao]

THat's what I've been trying to say here too...he is NOT that skilled on offense...he can't create his own shot.

He is a like a suped-up role player...and with Amare back next year, and with Nash and Diaw, Marion will again be awesome to have.

If we had Amare right now, I think Marion would be having a good series.

It's gotta be hard to deal with Marion's self-esteem. He's been saying he is "under-rated" even after Amare went down. Can you imagine if the focus is on Amare, Nash and Diaw next season? Coach D needs to constantly remind the media that Marion is under-rated. He knows he's gotta do that to make him happy.

 

[WildBB]

Marion needs to elevate his game. Play with more intensity inside and finish dunks.

But let me tell you something else you all didn't allready know.

How he responds in the next game and the rest of THIS SERIES will determime his future in the org. IMO.

 

[elindholm]

But let me tell you something else you all didn't allready know.

How he responds in the next game and the rest of THIS SERIES will determime his future in the org.

What makes you think we didn't already know that?

 

[jandaman]

So much hate on Marion... what happened?

You guys are not accounting Odom, who with confidence is a top 10 talent in the NBA. He is 6'11 and as you can see is simply giving Marion troubles... If the Suns had another big man like a Kurt Thomas or Amare, this wouldnt even be an issue.

The Suns are playing bad because Phil Jackson has figured out a way to slow the Suns down, basically... attack the inside and take away their confidence.

 

[Chaplin]

You guys can keep your love affair with Odom.

You'll never change my mind about whether Odom is better than Marion or not. Only Odom can do that, and regardless of these three games, which Joe seems to be using as the end-all and be-all of the arguement, I still think Marion is a better player.

 

[boisesuns]

You guys can keep your love affair with Odom.

You'll never change my mind about whether Odom is better than Marion or not. Only Odom can do that, and regardless of these three games, which Joe seems to be using as the end-all and be-all of the arguement, I still think Marion is a better player.

Keep in mind this is the suns board. Remember how we want to trade for someone who does well against us, or trade away one of our players who has a few bad games. I think there's something about it in the "terms of use" when you sign up to post here

 

[sunsfn]

Keep in mind this is the suns board. Remember how we want to trade for someone who does well against us, or trade away one of our players who has a few bad games. I think there's something about it in the "terms of use" when you sign up to post here

Yes,

Marion stats for the three games,
19--7
13--9
20--7

His average for the season was 19--10, so he is down some, but the supporting cast is not doing well in this series. Nash is getting his points, but Bell has had just one good game, and other than Tim Thomas, the others are not doing that great.

 

[Joe Mama]

Yes,

Marion stats for the three games,
19--7
13--9
20--7

His average for the season was 19--10, so he is down some, but the supporting cast is not doing well in this series. Nash is getting his points, but Bell has had just one good game, and other than Tim Thomas, the others are not doing that great.

Actually, Shawn Marion's season average is closer to 19-12, and he is the one who has brought a lot of this on himself. He is the one who has been whining to the media for the last few years about not getting enough attention. He's the one who thought he should have been defensive player of the year last year.

Shawn Marion is also the person who just said the problem was that he wasn't getting the ball enough.

You guys can keep your love affair with Odom.

You'll never change my mind about whether Odom is better than Marion or not. Only Odom can do that, and regardless of these three games, which Joe seems to be using as the end-all and be-all of the arguement, I still think Marion is a better player.

your lack of reading comprehension and inability to follow an argument still amazes me. I never said Lamar Odom is a better player than Shawn Marion. He has better size and is more talented. that's why now that he is putting forth the full effort he's outplaying Shawn Marion. You yourself conceded that he's been the better player in this series so far.

There's no love affair with Lamar Odom. That's just use simplifying the argument. Nobody can criticize Shawn Marion or say that Lamar Odom is more talented without use simplifying it to "you guys are saying that Lamar Odom is better than Shawn Marion".

Shawn Marion looks great during the regular season and when he is playing alongside guys who can create opportunities for him. He struggles and opponents focus on stopping him, and he struggles defensively when teams go at him in the post.

I'm not advocating dumping Shawn Marion. Hell no I'm not. I do think the Phoenix Suns should see what offers come their way this summer though. If they can get KG they need to do it.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

your lack of reading comprehension and inability to follow an argument still amazes me. I never said Lamar Odom is a better player than Shawn Marion. He has better size and is more talented. that's why now that he is putting forth the full effort he's outplaying Shawn Marion. You yourself conceded that he's been the better player in this series so far.

Why don't you just ban me, since there seems to be a penchant for it lately...

"More talented", but Marion is a better player... Maybe that makes a sort of sense in bizarro world, but in real life, it's nothing but a theory that has NEVER been proven.

I'm not advocating dumping Shawn Marion. Hell no I'm not. I do think the Phoenix Suns should see what offers come their way this summer though. If they can get KG they need to do it.

Joe Mama

If there is even a remote possibility of acquiring KG, then we definitely need to pursue it. We definitely agree on that.

 

[Joe Mama]

Why don't you just ban me, since there seems to be a penchant for it lately...

"More talented", but Marion is a better player... Maybe that makes a sort of sense in bizarro world, but in real life, it's nothing but a theory that has NEVER been proven.

I don't know how you "prove" a player is more talented than another, but I would think that their performances in this series would offer some proof. Is not really a theory either. It's my own take on these two players, and it just so happens that I'm right.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

I don't know how you "prove" a player is more talented than another, but I would think that their performances in this series would offer some proof. Is not really a theory either. It's my own take on these two players, and it just so happens that I'm right.

Joe

4 games over a span of 6 years doesn't prove much of anything, especially when in the hundreds of games before these 4, Shawn has outperformed Odom.

How can you be right when I'm right?

Like I said, bizarro world.