a thought about Marion

[elindholm]

Someone let me know when sunsfn abandons his "Sarver is a tightwad" crusade, so I can take him off Ignore. We've gone over this so many times that I've lost count, and I can count pretty high.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Yes, but if barbosa is in the deal, you're not only saving the money he makes now, but the money he would make on an extension. Also kurt thomas could be included (two years left on his contract, so minny might do that).

You are also saving the guaranteed salary of the first round draft picks.

Trading Marion, Barbosa and 2 firsts for Garnett is actually a move that favors the Suns financially....

We would still have a VERY solid 7 man rotation:

Nash
Bell
Garnett
Amare
Thomas
Diaw
Jones

With our MLE to use in hopes of resigning either Tim Thomas or Eddie House (or use on another FA). Then we fill in the rest of the spots with Grant and minimum players. We would have absolutely no problems fielding a good 8 man rotation.

 

[hsandhu]

You are also saving the guaranteed salary of the first round draft picks.

Trading Marion, Barbosa and 2 firsts for Garnett is actually a move that favors the Suns financially....

We would still have a VERY solid 7 man rotation:

Nash
Bell
Garnett
Amare
Thomas
Diaw
Jones

With our MLE to use in hopes of resigning either Tim Thomas or Eddie House (or use on another FA). Then we fill in the rest of the spots with Grant and minimum players. We would have absolutely no problems fielding a good 8 man rotation.

I don't think minny would get a better offer than that, especially with the way barbosa has developed this year. I've heard people say chicago/atlanta has a lot of young talent, but if garnett goes there he's in the same situation he's in right now, he doesn't want that.

The only question is if minnesota will finally be smart enough to realize it is time to rebuild, instead of doing something like bringing in marbury (which still wont make them a playoff team, and will make them take on a big contract).
Garnett wants to be loyal, thus hasn't come out and demanded a trade, but if the suns could let him know they want him, maybe that'll change.

Lastly, people saying garnett can't play with amare, I say those people haven't watched garnett. He can do all the little things, rebound, d-up, create, he doesn't need 18-19 shots. In fact he's been criticized for being to passive when he has no decent teammates, I don't think he'll have a problem deferring to superstar teammates.

 

[Chaplin]

The problem with Garnett is that he never has played with a player like Amare. So when someone says that he "can't" play with Amare is full of it because they have nothing to base that opinion on. The only thing I worry about is the ego-clash which would be bound to happen. Marion did a good job of deferring last year, but I can't see Garnett doing that. At least, not right away.

 

[sunsfn]

Someone let me know when sunsfn abandons his "Sarver is a tightwad" crusade, so I can take him off Ignore. We've gone over this so many times that I've lost count, and I can count pretty high.

Do not, I repeat, do not take me off ignore.......PLEASE!

Sarver is more interested in the bottom line than a championship!

He would like a championship, no doubt, but I do not think he is willing to lose money for a couple years to win one.

 

[Errntknght]

Come on you guys, D Dogg said the reason the Lakers would give us a tough series was that Kwame and Odom were playing much better than early on and that the Lakers offense was shaping up. Now if he'd said that Kobe would beat us scoring 60 a game, I'd have laughed along with you.

Jackson was quoted as saying the Lakers would attack us inside before the series started which leant credibility to what DDogg said. I'm not sure I quite buy DDog's assertion that he's 100% not surprised by Odom's play, but I guess I'd believe 95% not surprised.

I'm impressed with the Lakers, the way they are sticking to their game plan. The one advantage I thought we'd have is that Jackson didn't employ the high pick and roll often, historically, so they might not discover what a nerfball TT was at defending it.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Chicago could put together a very good package due to their vast amount of young talent.

Garnett doesn't have a no trade clause - so the only way he would get a choice is if Taylor would give it to him. I know there is a large respect factor - but I dont know if it outweighs the franchise....

I am not worried about an ego clash at all. Garnett's nature is to defer to his teammates a lot. He is an extremely unselfish player. It isn't like Amare is the leader of the team anyways. This is without a doubt Nash's team. Not to mention the skill sets of Amare and Garnett are perfect compliments.....

Sunsfn - you are just talking out of your ass now. Sarver does not want to lose money, like any business man. He isn't going to take a Mark Cuban approach. That does NOT mean that he cares more about the bottom line than winning. The guy is an egomaniac, but he has still proven that he will pony up the cash if the move makes sense. And like we have pointed out, the deal stated above puts the Suns in a better place financially.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm not sure I quite buy DDog's assertion that he's 100% not surprised by Odom's play, but I guess I'd believe 95% not surprised.

Ok, I'll concede that.

I was interested in seeing if he could play like that under the playoff pressure being asked to be a focal point, so there was some element of suprise that he pulled it off (which I felt he would) thus far. 5% is fair.

Now he's got to keep it up. I still think this series is going to be a dogfight.

 

[jibikao]

The problem with Garnett is that he never has played with a player like Amare. So when someone says that he "can't" play with Amare is full of it because they have nothing to base that opinion on. The only thing I worry about is the ego-clash which would be bound to happen. Marion did a good job of deferring last year, but I can't see Garnett doing that. At least, not right away.

I think KG can defer offensively to Amare/Nash. I've seen it when he played with Cassell and Mr. No Money to support my family. KG doesn't always dominate on the offense end. What I like about KG is his length, speed and versatility. KG probably won't run fast break much but he'll provide a lot more with his post up.

I still don't think it can happen and it won't happen.

 

[devilalum]

The Lakers have totally taken away Marions game.

Most of Marions points come off fast breaks and lobs from Nash and Diaw. Everytime they've tried to throw a lob to Marion the Lakers have broken it up. They're pretty packed in the paint.

The Lakers are also getting back and shutting down the Suns break.

Other than the lob play Marion struggles in the half court.

I don't have any explaination for his weak rebounding.

 

[Chaplin]

I think KG can defer offensively to Amare/Nash. I've seen it when he played with Cassell and Mr. No Money to support my family. KG doesn't always dominate on the offense end. What I like about KG is his length, speed and versatility. KG probably won't run fast break much but he'll provide a lot more with his post up.

I still don't think it can happen and it won't happen.

How can you even begin to bring up that example? Sprewell and Cassell at that time on par with Amare and Nash? Are you kidding me?

On that team, Garnett was the undisputed leader and #1 option. Would he be that on the Suns? Much harder question to answer.

 

[jibikao]

How can you even begin to bring up that example? Sprewell and Cassell at that time on par with Amare and Nash? Are you kidding me?

On that team, Garnett was the undisputed leader and #1 option. Would he be that on the Suns? Much harder question to answer.

KG is not a selfish player. In fact, his biggest weakness is his unselfishness in clutch time. If KG has no problem letting Cassell and Spree dominate on the offense end, why would he mind if Amare/Nash dominate on the offense end? Mind you, KG is a GREAT passer. The ball can go to him first and Nash can draw out a lot of attention.

I don't think KG is that good of a leader. He is more like Pippen IMO. He needs someone who he can defer to because he excels at every other things.

I am just fantasizing the whole situation. We never know until they actually play together.

Edit: I also want to assume that if this KG is ever possible, that means KG wants to leave Wolves. If that's the case, it won't be shocking if KG defers to Nash/Amare. It's better than staying in MN.

 

[hsandhu]

Chicago could put together a very good package due to their vast amount of young talent.

Garnett doesn't have a no trade clause - so the only way he would get a choice is if Taylor would give it to him. I know there is a large respect factor - but I dont know if it outweighs the franchise....

I am not worried about an ego clash at all. Garnett's nature is to defer to his teammates a lot. He is an extremely unselfish player. It isn't like Amare is the leader of the team anyways. This is without a doubt Nash's team. Not to mention the skill sets of Amare and Garnett are perfect compliments.....

Sunsfn - you are just talking out of your ass now. Sarver does not want to lose money, like any business man. He isn't going to take a Mark Cuban approach. That does NOT mean that he cares more about the bottom line than winning. The guy is an egomaniac, but he has still proven that he will pony up the cash if the move makes sense. And like we have pointed out, the deal stated above puts the Suns in a better place financially.

True, but I don't believe shaq had a no-trade clause either. Superstars can dicate where they are moved.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

True, but I don't believe shaq had a no-trade clause either. Superstars can dicate where they are moved.

No, but he had the option to opt out of his contract the following summer. So no team would trade a bunch of pieces for him without getting an agreement from Shaq that he would stay past the 1 season. The exact same thing happened when TMAC was traded.

Garnett however still has a few years on his deal. He just extended 2 years ago I think, and the moment he did he lost all leverage for dictating his trade destinations.

 

[Joe Mama]

Joe--am I not reading this correctly? Perhaps I implied more than what was there, but simple sentence comprehension dictates that you
think that Odom is a better player.

Yes, you did imply more than what was there, and simple sentence comprehension, or a lack thereof, got us to this point. Again, Lamar Odom is a more talented player. He has better size. He lacks the work ethic and passion for the game that Shawn Marion has (perhaps he doesn't need the recognition from sponsors, fans, media, etc. either).

Shawn Marion is a better player because he plays hard every night. Put more simply:

Lamar Odom + hard work & passion > Shawn Marion + hard work & passion

On top of that Lamar Odom has the talent to overcome good defense. He can initiate offense and create opportunities for his teammates. Shawn Marion is a complementary player. He's a damn good complementary player but a complementary player nonetheless.

Those are the reasons that Lamar Odom has outplayed Shawn Marion in this series so far, and he probably will continue to do so. He has stepped up his effort, and he has the size and talented advantage.

Btw isn't there some scenario where a third team could get involved in a Phoenix and Minnesota trade? That third team could give Minnesota some more young players and picks for Shawn Marion. I imagine there are probably quite a few teams that would love to get their hands on him.

Of course I'm with Andy regarding a trade of Shawn Marion for KG. I think it would immediately make them the team to beat for the next championship, but it would kill me to see Shawn Marion play for any other team. I would really like him to spend his career in Phoenix. I guess you have to do what you have to do to get a championship or two. I'm a poet and I didn't even know it.

The other thing acquiring Kevin Garnett does is it clears just about the entire salary cap when he, Steve Nash, and Kurt Thomas are done with their current contracts. I'm not really excited about giving Barbosa a lot of money.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

So what's the point of making a comparison? Lamar Odom + hard work and passion essentially doesn't exist right now. That's like saying Georghe Muresan + hard work and passion = Shaquille O'Neal. (ok, that's a little extreme, but you get the point, hopefully)

So you're saying that THEORETICALLY, Lamar Odom is a better player than Shawn Marion. I disagree because there are good players and there are great players--some good players are not capable of being great, and Odom is one of them--stirring mostly from their work ethic and mental intelligence about the game of basketball.

Odom POTENTIALLY has the tools to become great, but since he has never proven that he can, it is wholly unrealistic to assume it.

 

[nowagimp]

Lamar Odom is too big and too strong for shawn to guard. He uses his body to limit shawns jumping and then shoots over him with length. As far as erics theories of doggin it, get a grip and go searching for the xfiles. Shawn is a small forward, period. I noticed that sometimes he was the last player down court. So much for not being tired eric. You could make Lebron James try to guard a healthy Tim Duncan or Jermaine Oneil and Lebron would have the same type of problem. Lamar is talented, though I dont know if he's as talented as Shawn. Its all about matchups and this one is a physical mismatch. Phil Jackson has hit the suns right at their weakness, post defense. The whole NBA knows this, wake up suns fans, stop playing the ostrich part. In the playoffs, the margins for error are smaller, and players play tougher defense. The suns guards must also have double team help, the lakers guards are ALL bigger, every one of them. All suns guards can be posted up by their laker counterparts. Losing KT made the team one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. The real suprise of this series is that Philk Jackson converted Kobe from Gunner to team player. I didnt think he could do it. If Kobe had played this way all year, he could have been the MVP.

 

[elindholm]

Marion was tired two minutes into the first quarter? I guess he had to be, because he was already sluggish then. If memory serves, he scored all of two points in the first half. It wasn't until the second half that he showed any life at all, and the fourth quarter was his best.

Marion was matched up against PFs all of last season and a lot of this one. Yes, he gives away a lot of size and strength, but it hasn't hurt his overall effectiveness. (If anything, it has helped his effectiveness, judging by the numbers.) Odom has size and strength advantages over Marion, but Marion has advantages over Odom. He needs to start using them.

The Suns' defense was poor in Game 2, but it wasn't godawful. They lost the game on the offensive end -- mainly, during that run of 7:30 without a field goal, or whatever it was.

 

[Sundance]

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=64290

Shawn Marion says:

“It’s not me,” he said. “I gotta get the ball.

“You can put it on me all you want to, but I’m here to play. I only can control one thing, my energy on the floor. I can’t control anything else.”

That-a-boy, Shawn! Way to take responsibility there, fella! If this doesn't get him on the cover of NBA Live, nothing will.

 

[elindholm]

How come Marion is the only rotation player who complains about his involvement in the offense? This is getting old, fast.

 

[Chaplin]

How come Marion is the only rotation player who complains about his involvement in the offense? This is getting old, fast.

I was going to say the same thing. Marion has been a big favorite of mine for awhile, but all this complaining he's doing is really turning me off.

 

[AZZenny]

You must be registered for see images

Shawn, I want you to relax, more relaxed than you have felt in days... weeks... Let any trace of tension melt from your body... You may find yourself so relaxed that you are almost drowsy... you can choose to keep your eyes open, but you may choose to let your eyes close, because your eyelids feel so heavy... so hard to keep open, when your body is so free of tension, so deeply relaxed....

Now you may find that you can let the tension in your mind begin to fade... your thoughts become quieter, as you are able to relax your mind... you feel a warmth, a quiet confidence filling your mind... a radiant sense of peace... you might find yourself pleasantly surprised by how light you feel, body and mind... how energetic and refreshed you feel... how quick and powerful your muscles feel...

Now while you enjoy this feeling of relaxed confidence, we are going to go back in time... you're amused to discover how easily you can control time... days, months, are all fluid... they mean nothing... you aren't bound by the normal calendar anymore, in your relaxed, aware state... and so you are not surprised to find yourself in March... it's only March 2006... the Playoffs are still far away... you are unworried, nothing disturbs your sense of calm and power, your intense, relaxed focus...

When you wake up, you will feel refreshed, energized... with heightened awareness... quick, potent, confident... and even though everyone around you seems tense and even overwhelmed, thinking they are in the Playoffs, you know, you completely understand that it is only March, just another game, another easy, dominant double-double...

Now, whenever you're ready, when I count to five, you may find yourself beginning to wake up... you feel light and more confident and peaceful than you have before... this is your time... 1...2... 3... 4..... 5.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The good news is Shawn is going into one of his depressing - world against me tirades....

That means he is due for a big game

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

So you're saying that THEORETICALLY, Lamar Odom is a better player than Shawn Marion. I disagree because there are good players and there are great players--some good players are not capable of being great, and Odom is one of them--stirring mostly from their work ethic and mental intelligence about the game of basketball.

Chap -

Chad is saying that Shawn Marion is a better player, but Lamar Odom has a better skill set and body build.

The difference is that Shawn Marion makes up for his deficiencies with constant effort.

The problem is that when Lamar decides to turn it on, as he has in this series - he becomes the better player than Shawn Marion.

Over the long run, it is better to have Marion. There is a reason why he is a 3 time all star. However, in the current short run of this first round series - where Odom is putting forth a lot of effort - it is better to have Lamar Odom.

 

[sunsfn]

Sunsfn - you are just talking out of your ass now. Sarver does not want to lose money, like any business man. He isn't going to take a Mark Cuban approach. That does NOT mean that he cares more about the bottom line than winning. The guy is an egomaniac, but he has still proven that he will pony up the cash if the move makes sense. And like we have pointed out, the deal stated above puts the Suns in a better place financially.

I waited a day to respond to this, all I can say is "WOW".

I did not expect that kind of response from you. I guess that means if someone does not agree with you, then try to degrade them to win the arguement.