A Very Good Question

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Season to season he has.

I wasn't adding in the year before he got here

So you’re only counting two offseasons. Got it.

 

[carrrnuttt]

I don’t know if kliff would take that role with mcvay verses an o coordinator spot where he would have more personal control.

I think KK would have seen it as an in to the NFL and not throw it away.

 

[cardpa]

what I am in on,...is the result. Thats it. cost means nothing, the money is spent...we got these guys and now we have to make a good defense out of them...and vance did.

doesnt matter what guys get paid...totally irrelevant.

say we got a 1mil Linebacker and a 20mil linebacker at the same spot..... but the 1mil guy gets more sacks tackles and PD's.... then you play the 1mil guy,...use the other guy as a backup. what a guy is being paid should always be irrelevant to a coach, his job is to build a unit with the players he has.... the money is on the GM...
I mean honestly,....if every single player on our defense was paid league minimum,...but we were number one and they all made the pro bowl... anybody gonna say we were screwing the players? anyone gonna complain that we shouldnt be getting that production because we aint paying for it? for a coach its not about maximizing production Vs dollars,...its about building a solid unit.

be a damned shame if everyone in the organization worked that way..... Rondale Moore be running wide open five yards behind the defense,...and Kyler decides he has to throw it to triple covered AJ Green 10 yards out because he needs to get the most out of Greens cost

maybe...I dont know... but maybe joseph cant fire davis?? The team has history with billy davis dont they?...the super bowl team?... but kliff is the HC, he can fire guys when he wants to.

Maybe not, Kliff is HC in name only. Do you really believe he has an intimate knowledge of what is going on with the defensive side of the team?

 

[cardpa]

I get that you are on the result and that is where we disagree because I am about the process. The process is how you maintain success year over year vs just one year.

To your point this year, yes the cash is spent. But if we can't spend the same amount of cash next year then we have to have cheaper players filling roles that more expensive players struggled to fill. That leads to a decrease in productivity. So the process that got us here is very important because you have to consider if that is repeatable.

And players are paid more because they are deemed as being able to do more. Yes, with cost comes an expectation of production. You spend more on a product you generally expect that product to do more vs the cheaper model. You act like almost everything in life doesn't act that way. Kyler gets paid more than Colt McCoy, do you not expect more production out of Kyler vs Colt?

My view is there is a void in the way the team drafts. As a GM you know who your coaches are or at least you should. Keim should know that Joseph's system demands players to have certain traits for different positions and he should know that ILB is a very demanding position for Joseph's defense. Now when you are interviewing for the draft one would think that if you are looking to fill this position in the draft you should put an emphasis on the mental aspect and how quickly that player can adjust and adapt and absorb information and knowledge.

So the real question here becomes did Collins score high in this area or did he have difficulty in this area. Then I need to ask if Collins did well in showing the ability to pick up a system nuances then why is he having so many problems now? If he didn't then why did you draft him knowing he would probably struggle to find his way onto the field. Maybe how the team evaluates in this area is faulted. Maybe the personnel conducting the interview are the problem. Is the problem the coaches under Joseph? What we do know is the present way of doing things isn't working so well.

 

[Chopper0080]

My view is there is a void in the way the team drafts. As a GM you know who your coaches are or at least you should. Keim should know that Joseph's system demands players to have certain traits for different positions and he should know that ILB is a very demanding position for Joseph's defense. Now when you are interviewing for the draft one would think that if you are looking to fill this position in the draft you should put an emphasis on the mental aspect and how quickly that player can adjust and adapt and absorb information and knowledge.

So the real question here becomes did Collins score high in this area or did he have difficulty in this area. Then I need to ask if Collins did well in showing the ability to pick up a system nuances then why is he having so many problems now? If he didn't then why did you draft him knowing he would probably struggle to find his way onto the field. Maybe how the team evaluates in this area is faulted. Maybe the personnel conducting the interview are the problem. Is the problem the coaches under Joseph? What we do know is the present way of doing things isn't working so well.

No draft pick is going to have the knowledge of an NFL vet so it isn't a "scouting" problem. It's about what you ask the players to do and how you are willing to integrate them in. So the given is that these players are going to have a learning curve. But instead of playing them we sit them on the bench and expect them to figure it out that way. Not a recipe for success.


Again, you can draft Peyton Manning as your QB but if you aren't going to adjust your system to ease his development into it, he is going to struggle. And if you bench him and give him less reps when he does struggle, he is going to lose his confidence and learn slower.

It comes down to this. What do Tanner Vallejo and Joe Walker have that Isaiah Simmons and Zaven Collins don't? 5 and 6 years of NFL experience. If that is more valuable than the physical gifts of Collins and Simmons then no rookie is going to have much of a chance in this system under Vance because they will never come in with that experience and knowledge. Your options moving forward then become, draft and give limited reps to players for multiple years or sign good/expensive vets OR bad/cheap vets.

 

[oaken1]

I get that you are on the result and that is where we disagree because I am about the process. The process is how you maintain success year over year vs just one year.

To your point this year, yes the cash is spent. But if we can't spend the same amount of cash next year then we have to have cheaper players filling roles that more expensive players struggled to fill. That leads to a decrease in productivity. So the process that got us here is very important because you have to consider if that is repeatable.

And players are paid more because they are deemed as being able to do more. Yes, with cost comes an expectation of production. You spend more on a product you generally expect that product to do more vs the cheaper model. You act like almost everything in life doesn't act that way. Kyler gets paid more than Colt McCoy, do you not expect more production out of Kyler vs Colt?

I agree. But that is an off season type discussion.
We don't know who/what zaven Collins is right now for example... but we do know keim drafted every starter in our secondary....and lots of us give/gave him crap for drafting poorly...and it turned out some of those guys contribute more than we expected.
The old adage " winning solves everything " could come into play for us.
Winning programs get cheaper free agents. We saw it with the cowboys, the niners, the patriots, the colts,... of course, a wildcard with a quick exit probably isnt going to help us in that department... but two playoff wins very well might.
Ii read that with golden out collins will get a lot of reps at olb this week... I find that promising, interesting, and disturbing, lol...he is built similar to Jones, though a bit more stout...his speed is good... if he shakes things up this week, and maybe into the playoffs... it could mean we are safe to let chan seek his fat contract somewhere else.....and he obviously has a grasp on the assignments required.... but I really hope we dont see another Reddick situation.
teams do often dumb it down for rookies,...if a guy is an exceptional edge rusher and your team is hurting there,...you put the rookie in on third down with the single job of killing the qb.. but other teams know this and will often exploit that situation by either running at the rook or dropping a screen over him..... its much more difficult to dumb it down for the guy who is calling the plays and making sure everyone is in the proper alignment.
I expect we will learn quite a bit at the start of free agency. Hicks has an out built into his contract this year.... keep him and he is 9mil against the cap, release him and its only 3mil in dead money.....extend him to lower the cap hit and its almost certain Collins is moving to olb, and jones is probably gone.
but right now, we are in a playoff run. so I focus on that. my biggest concern in that playoff run isnt the defense,...its the apparent mental separation on our offense. the concentration and focus the past six weeks or so has been poor and they are not as crisp as they were early in the season. I was pretty stoked to see them focus on T.O.P. against dallas, during our skid we had dropped all the way down to 26 minutes a game

 

[cardpa]

No draft pick is going to have the knowledge of an NFL vet so it isn't a "scouting" problem. It's about what you ask the players to do and how you are willing to integrate them in. So the given is that these players are going to have a learning curve. But instead of playing them we sit them on the bench and expect them to figure it out that way. Not a recipe for success.


Again, you can draft Peyton Manning as your QB but if you aren't going to adjust your system to ease his development into it, he is going to struggle. And if you bench him and give him less reps when he does struggle, he is going to lose his confidence and learn slower.

It comes down to this. What do Tanner Vallejo and Joe Walker have that Isaiah Simmons and Zaven Collins don't? 5 and 6 years of NFL experience. If that is more valuable than the physical gifts of Collins and Simmons then no rookie is going to have much of a chance in this system under Vance because they will never come in with that experience and knowledge. Your options moving forward then become, draft and give limited reps to players for multiple years or sign good/expensive vets OR bad/cheap vets.

And maybe for certain positions on this defense that is the smart way to go. Teams are not entirely built through the draft. When you see quotes like this you have to wonder who is running the show.

This came from a write up on the Bleacher Report web site by Maurice Moton May 8, 2021. It was a review of first round draft picks in 2021.

"Collins skill set should allow him to play early snaps, which is what general manager Steve Keim wants out of his top two selections, Collins and receiver Rondale Moore.

"Steve made that crystal clear to the coaching staff and personnel department: Those first two picks need to play, and play early, and play a lot," head coach Kliff Kingsbury said."

As we all know this hasn't happened so one has to question what the deal is in the front office. If this was a mandate from Keim, why hasn't it happened.

Here is the link:

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[Garthshort]

Essentially keeping Vance Joseph is signing up for a scheme that devalues unique players. Budda is unique and devalued. Simmons is unique and devalued. Collins is unique and devalued. Chandler Jones is unique and devalued (how often do you see him lining up from a different spot?)

No wonder we didn't make the playoffs. Nice to have a Coach/GM to explain it to us.

 

[Harry]

*

No wonder we didn't make the playoffs. Nice to have a Coach/GM to explain it to us.

I would agree this defensive scheme shows no creativity.

 

[ajcardfan]

I got an email from a newspaper guy asking the following. If the Cards lose their last 2 games, do I believe Kingsbury will be fired? I‘ve already indicated on the board I would fire the entire staff. However, I believe they will retain Kingsbury. In my mind the only way things might get better in that eventuality is if they mandated changes. Maybe if they required hiring an Offensive Coordinator and a QB coach that might fix the offense if Murray accepts changing. Finally they’d need to fire Joseph. I do not see those changes happening, but sadly I believe Kingsbury stays. The Cards will be so thrilled about making the playoffs, nothing else will matter. Plus if they fired the coach then didn’t make the playoffs, the blowback would be unreal.

Inject positive Cards media into my veins

That's the second time I've heard an ex player talk about how good the secondarys communication is

www.arizonasportsfans.com

 

[THESMEL]

I got an email from a newspaper guy asking the following. If the Cards lose their last 2 games, do I believe Kingsbury will be fired? I‘ve already indicated on the board I would fire the entire staff. However, I believe they will retain Kingsbury. In my mind the only way things might get better in that eventuality is if they mandated changes. Maybe if they required hiring an Offensive Coordinator and a QB coach that might fix the offense if Murray accepts changing. Finally they’d need to fire Joseph. I do not see those changes happening, but sadly I believe Kingsbury stays. The Cards will be so thrilled about making the playoffs, nothing else will matter. Plus if they fired the coach then didn’t make the playoffs, the blowback would be unreal.

I think it’s a bad question to ask, we’re in the submarine not on the submarine, right now.

 

[daves]

I would agree this defensive scheme shows no creativity.

How about the 0-5-6 or 1-5-5 alignment they sometimes break out in critical situations?

...dave

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think KK would have seen it as an in to the NFL and not throw it away.

In the past, yes. But if we let him go now? I don’t think he’s go to the Rams to be McVay’s patsy. He’s want to be oncoordiantor somewhere where he’s the man.

 

[carrrnuttt]

In the past, yes. But if we let him go now? I don’t think he’s go to the Rams to be McVay’s patsy. He’s want to be oncoordiantor somewhere where he’s the man.

It depends on how McVay sells it to him. But them being friends makes it easier for McVay to do, I'd think.

 

[slanidrac16]

Kingsbury is going nowhere.

 

[ajcardfan]

Kingsbury is going nowhere.

Keim said he believes Kingsbury is "Coach of the Year" yesterday on 98.7.

I wish I was his agent.

 

[slanidrac16]

Keim said he believes Kingsbury is "Coach of the Year" yesterday on 98.7.

I wish I was his agent.

That says it all.

 

[football karma]

are people really thinking that this offseason is the time to make wholesale changes?

changing a coaching staff is like starting over. New schemes that won't be 100% locked in with players until the 2023 season. New staff means more roster turnover than usual as the staff brings in a bunch of "their guys"

i think a big part of the Cardinal's historic lack of success has been instability at QB and instability at HC.

 

[ajcardfan]

are people really thinking that this offseason is the time to make wholesale changes?

People let their emotions obliterate their common sense some times. The one reason there will be a lot of change is the free agent and cap situation. When you have that, the WORST thing you can do is blow up the staff after a winning season.

 

[THESMEL]

Kingsbury is going nowhere.

Trying to eat the hobbits ponies or something? KK has already exceeded expectations. The more I studied the air red offense the more rushing it demands. He has adjusted but still Not enough for me, I think he can own the NFL for a few years, with a little more early Conner violence. The pass does open up the run, but it fails too often early in the NFL. can only run the unicorn in empty backfields, great option, but he may stub his horn.

 

[slanidrac16]

Trying to eat the hobbits ponies or something? KK has already exceeded expectations. The more I studied the air red offense the more rushing it demands. He has adjusted but still Not enough for me, I think he can own the NFL for a few years, with a little more early Conner violence. The pass does open up the run, but it fails too often early in the NFL. can only run the unicorn in empty backfields, great option, but he may stub his horn.

Merely stating any conjecture on some peoples part of Kliff leaving is ridiculous, imho.
I would love to see him manage our games much like the Cowboys game.
Don’t give up on the running game especially on first down. Put Kyler under center. Move the pocket and let Kyler roll out on the snap, not just on scrambles.