A Very Good Question

[DVontel]

All this and the team is 11-5.

I'm not meaning to challenge you in particular. I really enjoy the insight you bring. But you seem pretty negative on the HC, DC, and the QB.

Not to bring the injury excuse, but with all the injuries and inconsistency, the Cardinals have been pretty damn good. In my life experience, organizations go as well as their leadership goes.

Kingsbury doesn't often win the big moments in games. I think that's obvious. But I think he often wins a lot of the small moments, which is why he has a winning record as the Cardinals HC.

The game was a three point win in which the Cowboys rallied to come back, but there are a handful of plays that the Cardinals didn't make that would have turned this game into a 14 point win.

Murray was better than Prescott. Kingsbury was better than McCarthy. I would trade neither straight up.

With a chance to win the division. Something it took 3 years for Arians to do, too.

 

[Krangodnzr]

McCarthy is just not very good. We have no idea how good the Packers current coach is because but LaFleur took a 6-9-1 team that had Rodgers the full season, and went 13-3, 13-3 and 13-3 this year with one game left. 39 wins in 3 seasons with a team that had back to back losing seasons under McCarthy, one the year Rodgers got hurt and missed a bunch of games.

McCarthy inherited the best OL, great group of WR's plus added Lamb, 2 good RB's. They are good, but not because of him.

Oh I think McCarthy isn't a coach who elevates a team at all. Rodgers obviously didn't think much of him. I think McCarthys persona fit with the Packers and that's why he stuck around for a long time....until he finally had a bad season and his QB was completely sick of it.

I caution against moving on from Kingsbury. I think he has grown every season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I’m fine with picking up the fifth option year on Kliff. 11 wins is 11 wins. He started faster than any other previous season and his collapse wasn’t as bad as the other two seasons. Those are all improvements.

Maybe next year, the second half play meets the first half a little more.

 

[Russ Smith]

Oh I think McCarthy isn't a coach who elevates a team at all. Rodgers obviously didn't think much of him. I think McCarthys persona fit with the Packers and that's why he stuck around for a long time....until he finally had a bad season and his QB was completely sick of it.

I caution against moving on from Kingsbury. I think he has grown every season.

I'm torn on Kliff I want to win at least 1 playoff game and preferrably two before I'm convinced he's the guy. The problem is as others said, the Cards didn't really hire him at the HC, they hired him to run the offense but they knew the only way to get him away from USC, and other NFL teams, was to make him the HC. Ideally you'd let him coach the offense but he's obviously not going to come off this season and agree to get demoted so you have to take the whole thing with him.

I'm impressed that he's gotten better every year, I still think there are things lacking. I feel the same with Vance, I thought he did really well yesterday but still things that bug you. Interestingly the Dallas sites are reporting that the Cards changing defenses really bothered Dak and the WR's, they were often not on the same page. They even suggested the 3 man rush was bothering them that there were several times where Dak couldn't find anybody, sure seemed like most of their success was trick plays or the 3 man rush giving Dak all day to throw

 

[Chopper0080]

Who are the top 3?

Kurt Warner and Carson Palmer were both better than this iteration of Kyler.

 

[oaken1]

I told ya guys when they hired kliff and a couple times since... I think they hired him on a five year plan. They knew he had a lot to learn coming in and made the decision to roll with him as HC anyway,...made the decision to ride out the learning curve.

not sure how many of you own businesses.... but the "Five year plan" is a pretty common tool. maybe not so much in "Bobs widget company" that has to maintain a certain cashflow every week to keep the door open,... but certainly in larger financially stable business.
right now I would say the five year plan is on track.

kliff's late season woes are concerning...but IMO they are not technically the biggest issue right now.... I guess the two go together... anybody notice we cant win at home?? This is an issue... and it should be easy to fix... they just need to match up the home game routine to the away game routine and it should be good...routine is important.
we are the cardinals, we play in arizona... the nfl has a fairly solid history of front loading us with away games and giving us lots of home games when the weather cools...silly since we have a dome now,...but they still do it.
I dont like the late season crash...but I spent several hours last week looking up KK;s past and i cant find any indicators that there were issues in college nor in his bouncy pro career as a player. The trend started when he became a HC....my guess is, at TT... he would play patsy games for revenue early in the season, then get the conference games and get whooped on...Kliff is competitive,...so I would think he changed things up later in the season to try and win some of these games against bigger schools, of course I dont "know" this... but I do "know" that a truly competitive person will try almost anything to win,...and kliff is truly competitive.
its something in the prep, not just the game planning... because it affects our players too...and it is noticeably having a bigger effect on the offense than the defense. I have wondered several times if it isnt just tension in the facility...Kliff hears all the talk about late season skids...it has to bother him to some degree.
I also noticed, earlier in the season...way early,...kliff looked pretty haggard for a while... whereas lately he looks pretty normal. not sure what that means but it appears that he was burning the midnight oil pretty heavily and maybe now he is not.
hard to solve without being there... team needs to hire a consultant to observe.

anyway... I dont see mike firing kliff. He wants to be considered a stable franchise. Like New england or Pittsburgh...you get that stability, and the corresponding team identity... by having a long term coach.

Kliff was a great coach... respected offensive guru known for creative play design and exciting offensive concepts. Considering the nfl has been on a steady effort of rules changes to increase offense and raise scoring to make the game more exciting.... kliff was a savvy choice..a gamble, but one that could pay off big. He is only 42...someone asked why thats important....simply because you cant hire a 60 year old HC and expect to keep him for 20-25 years...

Vance Joseph....
So many people love to hate on Vance Joseph. I dont like Vance,...absolutely hate his bend dont break style of defense... what we saw from the cowboys yesterday is definitely more my style... I like attacking defenses...take your chances on the big plays and attack every single down...you give up some 80 yd TD's, but you also get lots of turnovers... and Vance dont play that... he coaches patience, and ball stripping... did you notice the cardinals defense always attacks the ball?
But again,... the nfl is a business...and the bottom line is the bottom line.
the entire purpose for defense in football is to stop the other team from scoring.....and get the ball back for your offense once in a while.

up until a month ago the arizona cardinals were the third ranked scoring defense in the nfl...3rd...THIRD. for those that are slow, that means only two teams were allowing less points than us... thats the bottom line and it is a phenomenal result.
we went on a three game skid and our defense slipped to around 8th or so....

bad defense?? Not so much... during that skid,...our offensive time of possession decreased by a full 3 minutes a game....down to 26 minutes..... now,.. our defensive turnovers also dropped...which can be blamed on the defense... but our offensive turnovers went up. its hard to fault the defense for giving up a few more points a game when the have been spending about 12 percent more time on the field. it is reasonable to surmise that had the offense not started giving the ball away the defensive scoring likely would not have gone up. the stats tend to bear that out.

rookies...
if you draft a guy in the top 10 you kinda want that guy to play and probably be a starter...considering you drafted in the top ten, which means you need help somewhere,...and its likely you drafted said help.
these days fans get so emotional about the rooks. I remember when rookies almost never saw the field...except runningbacks, and quarterbacks if a kid was awesome and the team was desperate. but lots of guys remind me a bit of children crying because they cant play with their favorite toy.
maybe the rookie isnt ready?? maybe we just dont need him right now. we have a top five scoring defense right the way they are... however, we have a vet who is getting older....he runs the defense well...and if the plan is to let him go at the end of the season,...why not let him post a good season on his resume so he can get a good contract somewhere else?? it lets the rookie continue to learn,..and it may well net the team a compensatory pick if he signs a fat contract with another team......and we drop the rook in his spot next season... secret: thats how player development is supposed to work. we aint supposed to be drafting starters,...we have just sucked ass for so long everyone got used to the idea that if our first three picks dont contribute,..well...the draft sucks and we are going 5-11
but we have a top five scoring defense with our first round pick playing 2 or 3 snaps a game....and we have people thinking that is somehow a bad thing??
do any of you honestly think...starting collins over hicks is going to make us the very best defense in the nfl/ is it going to win us games??
its not.
the only thing it would do,...is spawn a plethora of "keim cant draft, colins is a bust" threads on message boards every time the kid makes a mistake....or, "see? I TOLD you we shoulda drafted that other guy"

the nfl is a business...and the bottom line is the bottom line...and the bottom line right now is that our team is pretty good...our offense has some mental quirks to get past,...but our defense is one of the best in the league.

 

[Chopper0080]

This thread is pretty funny.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm torn on Kliff I want to win at least 1 playoff game and preferrably two before I'm convinced he's the guy. The problem is as others said, the Cards didn't really hire him at the HC, they hired him to run the offense but they knew the only way to get him away from USC, and other NFL teams, was to make him the HC. Ideally you'd let him coach the offense but he's obviously not going to come off this season and agree to get demoted so you have to take the whole thing with him.

I'm impressed that he's gotten better every year, I still think there are things lacking. I feel the same with Vance, I thought he did really well yesterday but still things that bug you. Interestingly the Dallas sites are reporting that the Cards changing defenses really bothered Dak and the WR's, they were often not on the same page. They even suggested the 3 man rush was bothering them that there were several times where Dak couldn't find anybody, sure seemed like most of their success was trick plays or the 3 man rush giving Dak all day to throw

Most NFL coaches have a specialty. It's exceedingly rare that a coach is good at all three phases. That's one of the more puzzling criticisms of Kingsbury. Even seasoned NFL assistants have the same issue.

I'd be a detractor if I didn't think Kingsbury had the ability to change. He has clearly demonstrated that. His offense now is very different than earlier. He's moved from primarily 10 personnel to a lot of 11 and quite a bit of 12 personnel. I'd wager he'd love to run less shotgun, but Kyler has said he prefers shotgun more.

Personally, I really like his leadership style. He takes all of the blame, none of the credit. You don't see him beating up on players. Look at the comments from Humphries and you can clearly see Arians demeanor rubbed him the wrong way. Players seem to like and respect Kingsbury. That feeling tends to spread when players talk to players from other teams.

I think he deserves quite a bit of the credit for the turnaround.

 

[Krangodnzr]

This thread is pretty funny.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Garthshort]

In Scouting terms, it seems that Harry has lost a little off his fastball.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Winning the last 2 is only a factor if the coaching change is based on record. I recognize many of you will consider that an insane observation. I have already said Kingsbury will coach next year regardless of remaining games. I would extend neither. My preference is to fire Joseph, but they won’t.

Murray is the toughest call. He could become one of the top 3 QBs in the league. I’m concerned he won’t move forward next year. So if they don’t extend him and he moves forward the Cards would pay a big premium if they follow my advice. I hope I’m wrong.

Kingsbury is a puzzle wrapped in an enigma. If he’d agree to an OC and a QB coach I‘d feel better about giving him another year. His decisions, like going for 2, almost cost the Cards a game. He wasted a TO. He’s lost his red zone edge. After 15 games, how does he finally figure out to rollout Murray and to put him under center? He also tried a read option play, though it failed horribly. It takes practice to perfect. Tebow could teach Murray, another crazy thought. Kingsbury even tried a 2-man game a couple of times; both worked. I think Kingsbury reads this board. I’m not sure what to make of this. I’ve never seen so many wrinkles added to a game this late. Was he flexible or just desperate? He drives me to distraction. I’d prefer a coach who’s more predictable. He seems to learn a lesson than forgets what he learns. It’s just too weird.

I though Kingsbury called a bad game in the first half but a great one in the fourth quarter. Is he manic-depressive? It’s just too odd. If he won’t agree to get more personnel, I’d still change, but somewhat reluctantly. The shock of being dropped would likely spur him to change for the better and the Cards would look like they made a major mistake.

As for Joseph, I’m over his loose zones and reluctance to blitz. He‘s had bad luck regarding injuries, but my observation says his philosophy leaves much to be desired. He is also hindered by having a head coach who’s not fluent about defense. In the end too often the offense has had to rescue the defense. The Cards need better balance.

Overall I fully realize that basing change on the record is traditionally the reason for change. Teams use a variation of the Peter Principle to evaluate coaches rather than asking if their skill set will sustain a move to the next level. I think, especially in the case of Kingsbury, his coaching philosophy will cause him to make too many wrong decisions. He’s too closed minded and too slow to change. Too often that change isn’t permanent. He reverts to ego based behaviors. It’s just who he is. The Cards have had to win too many times in spite of coaching.

Hmmm... you and I are quite far apart philosophically. In this case, I think I would rather try to "fix" 12-5 or 11-6 rather than start over with a new regime. Bringing in a new staff sounds exciting and fun, but I'm wary of interfering with a process that appears to be working.

And no offense, but I feel like there's a disconnect in your logic somewhere. To get 11 wins in the NFL, and assuming you're correct that VJ is irredeemable, and K2 is inconsistent (a fair summary of what you said?), then our players would have to be other-worldly. I think in the NFL, a team with poor/inconsistent coaching would struggle just to get to .500 even with very good players. Yet we're currently six games over .500.

I might be more inclined to agree with you if we hadn't just won a game without JJ Watt, Deandre Hopkins, James Conner and Marcus Golden, and with Greg Dortch, Kevin Peterson, Victor Dimukeje and Jonathan Ward. We also beat decent SF and Seattle sides earlier in the year with a 35-year old Colt McCoy.

No. I could be wrong, but to me the most logical conclusion is that both Kliff and Vance are doing something right. If Kliff gets us to the 2nd round of the playoffs, I think you reward him with another contract. VJ too. I honestly think the defense has been just as responsible for the 11 wins as has been the offense.

You do pose an interesting thought about Murry's current extension value being a little lower now, vs. what it might be if he improves even a little in the 2022/2023 season. Should be a good "hot stove" topic once the season concludes.

 

[slanidrac16]

I told ya guys when they hired kliff and a couple times since... I think they hired him on a five year plan. They knew he had a lot to learn coming in and made the decision to roll with him as HC anyway,...made the decision to ride out the learning curve.

not sure how many of you own businesses.... but the "Five year plan" is a pretty common tool. maybe not so much in "Bobs widget company" that has to maintain a certain cashflow every week to keep the door open,... but certainly in larger financially stable business.
right now I would say the five year plan is on track.

kliff's late season woes are concerning...but IMO they are not technically the biggest issue right now.... I guess the two go together... anybody notice we cant win at home?? This is an issue... and it should be easy to fix... they just need to match up the home game routine to the away game routine and it should be good...routine is important.
we are the cardinals, we play in arizona... the nfl has a fairly solid history of front loading us with away games and giving us lots of home games when the weather cools...silly since we have a dome now,...but they still do it.
I dont like the late season crash...but I spent several hours last week looking up KK;s past and i cant find any indicators that there were issues in college nor in his bouncy pro career as a player. The trend started when he became a HC....my guess is, at TT... he would play patsy games for revenue early in the season, then get the conference games and get whooped on...Kliff is competitive,...so I would think he changed things up later in the season to try and win some of these games against bigger schools, of course I dont "know" this... but I do "know" that a truly competitive person will try almost anything to win,...and kliff is truly competitive.
its something in the prep, not just the game planning... because it affects our players too...and it is noticeably having a bigger effect on the offense than the defense. I have wondered several times if it isnt just tension in the facility...Kliff hears all the talk about late season skids...it has to bother him to some degree.
I also noticed, earlier in the season...way early,...kliff looked pretty haggard for a while... whereas lately he looks pretty normal. not sure what that means but it appears that he was burning the midnight oil pretty heavily and maybe now he is not.
hard to solve without being there... team needs to hire a consultant to observe.

anyway... I dont see mike firing kliff. He wants to be considered a stable franchise. Like New england or Pittsburgh...you get that stability, and the corresponding team identity... by having a long term coach.

Kliff was a great coach... respected offensive guru known for creative play design and exciting offensive concepts. Considering the nfl has been on a steady effort of rules changes to increase offense and raise scoring to make the game more exciting.... kliff was a savvy choice..a gamble, but one that could pay off big. He is only 42...someone asked why thats important....simply because you cant hire a 60 year old HC and expect to keep him for 20-25 years...

Vance Joseph....
So many people love to hate on Vance Joseph. I dont like Vance,...absolutely hate his bend dont break style of defense... what we saw from the cowboys yesterday is definitely more my style... I like attacking defenses...take your chances on the big plays and attack every single down...you give up some 80 yd TD's, but you also get lots of turnovers... and Vance dont play that... he coaches patience, and ball stripping... did you notice the cardinals defense always attacks the ball?
But again,... the nfl is a business...and the bottom line is the bottom line.
the entire purpose for defense in football is to stop the other team from scoring.....and get the ball back for your offense once in a while.

up until a month ago the arizona cardinals were the third ranked scoring defense in the nfl...3rd...THIRD. for those that are slow, that means only two teams were allowing less points than us... thats the bottom line and it is a phenomenal result.
we went on a three game skid and our defense slipped to around 8th or so....

bad defense?? Not so much... during that skid,...our offensive time of possession decreased by a full 3 minutes a game....down to 26 minutes..... now,.. our defensive turnovers also dropped...which can be blamed on the defense... but our offensive turnovers went up. its hard to fault the defense for giving up a few more points a game when the have been spending about 12 percent more time on the field. it is reasonable to surmise that had the offense not started giving the ball away the defensive scoring likely would not have gone up. the stats tend to bear that out.

rookies...
if you draft a guy in the top 10 you kinda want that guy to play and probably be a starter...considering you drafted in the top ten, which means you need help somewhere,...and its likely you drafted said help.
these days fans get so emotional about the rooks. I remember when rookies almost never saw the field...except runningbacks, and quarterbacks if a kid was awesome and the team was desperate. but lots of guys remind me a bit of children crying because they cant play with their favorite toy.
maybe the rookie isnt ready?? maybe we just dont need him right now. we have a top five scoring defense right the way they are... however, we have a vet who is getting older....he runs the defense well...and if the plan is to let him go at the end of the season,...why not let him post a good season on his resume so he can get a good contract somewhere else?? it lets the rookie continue to learn,..and it may well net the team a compensatory pick if he signs a fat contract with another team......and we drop the rook in his spot next season... secret: thats how player development is supposed to work. we aint supposed to be drafting starters,...we have just sucked ass for so long everyone got used to the idea that if our first three picks dont contribute,..well...the draft sucks and we are going 5-11
but we have a top five scoring defense with our first round pick playing 2 or 3 snaps a game....and we have people thinking that is somehow a bad thing??
do any of you honestly think...starting collins over hicks is going to make us the very best defense in the nfl/ is it going to win us games??
its not.
the only thing it would do,...is spawn a plethora of "keim cant draft, colins is a bust" threads on message boards every time the kid makes a mistake....or, "see? I TOLD you we shoulda drafted that other guy"

the nfl is a business...and the bottom line is the bottom line...and the bottom line right now is that our team is pretty good...our offense has some mental quirks to get past,...but our defense is one of the best in the league.

Great post! I’ve said all along there is only 1 stat that counts …wins and losses.
I also always thought that anything you get of your rookie class is a bonus. They should never be depended on to play a big roll. Yes there are players that do like Chase and Parsons but a lot has to do with their situations.

Vance Joseph. Totally agree on aggressive attacking defenses. Why? Because attacking blitzing defenses cause mistakes. It produces holding penalties, sacks, tipped passes, early throws and more. It is the best way to cover shortcomings in personnel. Yes you get burnt once in a while but the reward seems to outweigh the risk.

Kliff Kingsbury. I believe he is over the top with analytics. That being said it seems like the whole league is leaning that way. Let’s face it, as far as trick plays they work when your opponent doesn’t expect it. But you don’t go for it on 4 th down on your own 35 yard line in the first quarter on your second possession. I NEVER chase points with the lead especially early in the game. Kingsbury seems to SLOWLY be learning. Putting Kyler under center more is the right thing to do. Better late than never. Sticking with the run even though it’s not dominating helps the offense keep the defense honest.

Like it or not 11-5 with one game left is hard to argue with . A top 10 team in both offense and defense is hard to argue with. With a lot of players without contracts this year leaves us with this.

Steve Kiem. Can he build this roster back up better than this year? It sure would be nice to head into a season without having to replace 65 % of the roster every year.

Michael Bidwill. There is no way in hell he breaks up the band. Whether you or I agree with him won’t mean a thing. Any further wins will only strengthen his conviction of his decisions over the last 3 years.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I told ya guys when they hired kliff and a couple times since... I think they hired him on a five year plan. They knew he had a lot to learn coming in and made the decision to roll with him as HC anyway,...made the decision to ride out the learning curve.

not sure how many of you own businesses.... but the "Five year plan" is a pretty common tool. maybe not so much in "Bobs widget company" that has to maintain a certain cashflow every week to keep the door open,... but certainly in larger financially stable business.
right now I would say the five year plan is on track.

kliff's late season woes are concerning...but IMO they are not technically the biggest issue right now.... I guess the two go together... anybody notice we cant win at home?? This is an issue... and it should be easy to fix... they just need to match up the home game routine to the away game routine and it should be good...routine is important.
we are the cardinals, we play in arizona... the nfl has a fairly solid history of front loading us with away games and giving us lots of home games when the weather cools...silly since we have a dome now,...but they still do it.
I dont like the late season crash...but I spent several hours last week looking up KK;s past and i cant find any indicators that there were issues in college nor in his bouncy pro career as a player. The trend started when he became a HC....my guess is, at TT... he would play patsy games for revenue early in the season, then get the conference games and get whooped on...Kliff is competitive,...so I would think he changed things up later in the season to try and win some of these games against bigger schools, of course I dont "know" this... but I do "know" that a truly competitive person will try almost anything to win,...and kliff is truly competitive.
its something in the prep, not just the game planning... because it affects our players too...and it is noticeably having a bigger effect on the offense than the defense. I have wondered several times if it isnt just tension in the facility...Kliff hears all the talk about late season skids...it has to bother him to some degree.
I also noticed, earlier in the season...way early,...kliff looked pretty haggard for a while... whereas lately he looks pretty normal. not sure what that means but it appears that he was burning the midnight oil pretty heavily and maybe now he is not.
hard to solve without being there... team needs to hire a consultant to observe.

anyway... I dont see mike firing kliff. He wants to be considered a stable franchise. Like New england or Pittsburgh...you get that stability, and the corresponding team identity... by having a long term coach.

Kliff was a great coach... respected offensive guru known for creative play design and exciting offensive concepts. Considering the nfl has been on a steady effort of rules changes to increase offense and raise scoring to make the game more exciting.... kliff was a savvy choice..a gamble, but one that could pay off big. He is only 42...someone asked why thats important....simply because you cant hire a 60 year old HC and expect to keep him for 20-25 years...

Vance Joseph....
So many people love to hate on Vance Joseph. I dont like Vance,...absolutely hate his bend dont break style of defense... what we saw from the cowboys yesterday is definitely more my style... I like attacking defenses...take your chances on the big plays and attack every single down...you give up some 80 yd TD's, but you also get lots of turnovers... and Vance dont play that... he coaches patience, and ball stripping... did you notice the cardinals defense always attacks the ball?
But again,... the nfl is a business...and the bottom line is the bottom line.
the entire purpose for defense in football is to stop the other team from scoring.....and get the ball back for your offense once in a while.

up until a month ago the arizona cardinals were the third ranked scoring defense in the nfl...3rd...THIRD. for those that are slow, that means only two teams were allowing less points than us... thats the bottom line and it is a phenomenal result.
we went on a three game skid and our defense slipped to around 8th or so....

bad defense?? Not so much... during that skid,...our offensive time of possession decreased by a full 3 minutes a game....down to 26 minutes..... now,.. our defensive turnovers also dropped...which can be blamed on the defense... but our offensive turnovers went up. its hard to fault the defense for giving up a few more points a game when the have been spending about 12 percent more time on the field. it is reasonable to surmise that had the offense not started giving the ball away the defensive scoring likely would not have gone up. the stats tend to bear that out.

rookies...
if you draft a guy in the top 10 you kinda want that guy to play and probably be a starter...considering you drafted in the top ten, which means you need help somewhere,...and its likely you drafted said help.
these days fans get so emotional about the rooks. I remember when rookies almost never saw the field...except runningbacks, and quarterbacks if a kid was awesome and the team was desperate. but lots of guys remind me a bit of children crying because they cant play with their favorite toy.
maybe the rookie isnt ready?? maybe we just dont need him right now. we have a top five scoring defense right the way they are... however, we have a vet who is getting older....he runs the defense well...and if the plan is to let him go at the end of the season,...why not let him post a good season on his resume so he can get a good contract somewhere else?? it lets the rookie continue to learn,..and it may well net the team a compensatory pick if he signs a fat contract with another team......and we drop the rook in his spot next season... secret: thats how player development is supposed to work. we aint supposed to be drafting starters,...we have just sucked ass for so long everyone got used to the idea that if our first three picks dont contribute,..well...the draft sucks and we are going 5-11
but we have a top five scoring defense with our first round pick playing 2 or 3 snaps a game....and we have people thinking that is somehow a bad thing??
do any of you honestly think...starting collins over hicks is going to make us the very best defense in the nfl/ is it going to win us games??
its not.
the only thing it would do,...is spawn a plethora of "keim cant draft, colins is a bust" threads on message boards every time the kid makes a mistake....or, "see? I TOLD you we shoulda drafted that other guy"

the nfl is a business...and the bottom line is the bottom line...and the bottom line right now is that our team is pretty good...our offense has some mental quirks to get past,...but our defense is one of the best in the league.

Love the passion in this post, and agree with most of it, but don't let @Chopper0080 read that last line man.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Kurt Warner and Carson Palmer were both better than this iteration of Kyler.

I think this is questionable. Warner was god-like when "on", but there was also "Bad Kurt" too. He was great, but his lows were pretty low, and occurred a little too frequently.

Warner could handle big-game pressure though. I have to admit I think I might take KW in a playoff game right now over Murray. The DAL win was a step in the right direction, but K1 still needs to show he can be great in a win-or-go-home game.
And of course Palmer was no where near the runner that Murray is, and I think probably had a better offensive line than does Murray. Plug in CP into this line up, and he might get sacked 40 or 50 times over 17 games.

 

[oaken1]

Love the passion in this post, and agree with most of it, but don't let @Chopper0080 read that last line man.

Pretty sure that's why he thinks the thread got funny.
It's OK.. chopper and I disagree on a lot. But I think we would both prefer to see our defense turn up the heat 3 or 4 notches.
Honestly, that first play in the indy game,...they run right up the middle for 50... I was insta-pissed and my first thought was ******* Vance has to go!
But they settled down and did a good job after that. So I started researching stats... the defense just ain't our problem right now. I would almost rather have James bettcher back as DC ....but I've learned not to cut off my nose to spite my face.

There's a chance Collins ain't playing more specifically because Keim named him the starter on draft day. A dick measuring contest. While I don't like it if that's the case, I have to side with Joseph...evaluating performance and naming starters ain't keims job and he needs to stay in his damn lane...he was out of line. He got excited over a pick and put Joseph in a no win situation

 

[QuebecCard]

I think this is questionable. Warner was god-like when "on", but there was also "Bad Kurt" too. He was great, but his lows were pretty low, and occurred a little too frequently.

Warner could handle big-game pressure though. I have to admit I think I might take KW in a playoff game right now over Murray. The DAL win was a step in the right direction, but K1 still needs to show he can be great in a win-or-go-home game.
And of course Palmer was no where near the runner that Murray is, and I think probably had a better offensive line than does Murray. Plug in CP into this line up, and he might get sacked 40 or 50 times over 17 games.

Do you want to re-phrase or would you actually prefer a 50-year old at QB?

 

[Stout]

I think this is questionable. Warner was god-like when "on", but there was also "Bad Kurt" too. He was great, but his lows were pretty low, and occurred a little too frequently.

Warner could handle big-game pressure though. I have to admit I think I might take KW in a playoff game right now over Murray. The DAL win was a step in the right direction, but K1 still needs to show he can be great in a win-or-go-home game.
And of course Palmer was no where near the runner that Murray is, and I think probably had a better offensive line than does Murray. Plug in CP into this line up, and he might get sacked 40 or 50 times over 17 games.

Might? LOL there should be no question at this point in KM's career! Maybe someday he'll be better, but KW has playoff chops and KM, to date, hasn't even played in the playoffs. I would 1,000 percent take KW over KM, if we could change dates and make it magically happen, for the playoffs!

Sorry, this was an otherwise really good post. That little nugget was just like a "da fuq?" moment for me

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Do you want to re-phrase or would you actually prefer a 50-year old at QB?

Touché QuebecCard. I would rephrase to say In a playoff game, I might take 2008/2009 Warner over 2021/2022 K. Murray.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Touché QuebecCard. I would rephrase to say In a playoff game, I might take 2008/2009 Warner over 2021/2022 K. Murray.

I think a lot of people would also. 2008 Kurt Warner is a Hall of Fame player. That's kind of like saying I would take in his prime Drew Brees/Steve Young over Kyler in a playoff game

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I think a lot of people would also. 2008 Kurt Warner is a Hall of Fame player. That's kind of like saying I would take in his prime Drew Brees/Steve Young over Kyler in a playoff game

Sigh.. didn't want to have to do this, because I love KW to death, but here's his stat line from 2008:


Games Attempts Comp Yards TDs INT QB Rating Rushes Yds Avg TD

16​

598​

401​

4,583​

30​

14​

96.9​

18​

-2​

-0.1​

0​

Completion percentage is right at 67% in case you're curious.

Here are Murry's stats for 13 games this year.

comp Attempts Yards % comp per TDs INT Long sacked QB Rating QBR Rushes Yds Avg TD long

305

442

3,547

69.0

8.0

23

10

77

26

100.9

58.5

83

388

4.7

5

57

Keep in mind that Warner's O-line started the same five guys every game during that season, which is important. Also, Warner was throwing to Boldin, Fitz (at the very height of his powers), and Steve Breston. Leonard "The Pope" Pope was our tight end.

Yesterday Murray was throwing to Kirk, Green, and Wesley. Ertz at TE.

If you want to say it's a push passing wise, fine, I'm not going to argue, but just like vs. Palmer, it's no contest from a rushing standpoint.

But again, Kurt proved he could win big games. Superbowls and NFC Conference Championship games. Kyler's most recent achievement was the Big XII Championship game vs. Texas. He had 379 yards and 3 TDs that game. 39 yards rushing.

So if you asked me to pick a starter for playoff game today, I might take 2008 KW. I don't know. I might ask you to wait to see how K1 plays this Sunday vs. SEA.

 

[Chopper0080]

Care to elaborate?

People on here acting like Kliff isn't getting an extension. Like we are not such a success starved franchise who is historically terrible at selecting HCs. I don't fault people for wanting better but what we have isn't bad and they're going to lock him up.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

I’ve never been a big stat guy. I could care less how Kyler played in college or this coming Saturday. Until he starts winning playoff games, NFC championships and Superbowls, he hasn’t done anything. Hopefully that starts to happen this year. Until then, KW is the choice for me

 

[Crimson Warrior]

There's a chance Collins ain't playing more specifically because Keim named him the starter on draft day. A dick measuring contest. While I don't like it if that's the case, I have to side with Joseph...evaluating performance and naming starters ain't keims job and he needs to stay in his damn lane...he was out of line. He got excited over a pick and put Joseph in a no win situation

Yeah, that whole "Collins is going to be the starter from day 1 and Hicks is going to the bench" thing looks weirder and weirder the further out we get from it. Really weird. Somebody in the organization, maybe more than one person, mishandled that situation. To the detriment of both Hicks and Collins.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Hmmm... you and I are quite far apart philosophically. In this case, I think I would rather try to "fix" 12-5 or 11-6 rather than start over with a new regime. Bringing in a new staff sounds exciting and fun, but I'm wary of interfering with a process that appears to be working.

And no offense, but I feel like there's a disconnect in your logic somewhere. To get 11 wins in the NFL, and assuming you're correct that VJ is irredeemable, and K2 is inconsistent (a fair summary of what you said?), then our players would have to be other-worldly. I think in the NFL, a team with poor/inconsistent coaching would struggle just to get to .500 even with very good players. Yet we're currently six games over .500.

I might be more inclined to agree with you if we hadn't just won a game without JJ Watt, Deandre Hopkins, James Conner and Marcus Golden, and with Greg Dortch, Kevin Peterson, Victor Dimukeje and Jonathan Ward. We also beat decent SF and Seattle sides earlier in the year with a 35-year old Colt McCoy.

No. I could be wrong, but to me the most logical conclusion is that both Kliff and Vance are doing something right. If Kliff gets us to the 2nd round of the playoffs, I think you reward him with another contract. VJ too. I honestly think the defense has been just as responsible for the 11 wins as has been the offense.

You do pose an interesting thought about Murry's current extension value being a little lower now, vs. what it might be if he improves even a little in the 2022/2023 season. Should be a good "hot stove" topic once the season concludes.

All of this.

Personally, I think some of the anti-Kliff takes are really just based on the initial bias, and not based on the actual results.

I pegged this team as a team that could win between 7 and 11 games. I thought injuries might be a factor, but to me, what would limit this team was lack of depth on some position groups.

 

[Krangodnzr]

People on here acting like Kliff isn't getting an extension. Like we are not such a success starved franchise who is historically terrible at selecting HCs. I don't fault people for wanting better but what we have isn't bad and they're going to lock him up.

Remember when Detroit thought they could do better than Caldwell?

I'm not a big Caldwell fan but he can get a team to the playoffs.