About Lampe

[George O'Brien]

TT could drive and post up, but that's not why he got so much money.

I agree that hitting the 3pt shots is the monetary key but if he couldn't post smaller guys then it would possible to have a shorter and more mobile player defend him - someone who could bother his 3pt shot and deny him the ball. If he couldn't drive past slow, big defenders they could play up on him and prevent him from shooting threes. Sheesh, George, its embarrassing to have to spell this all out for someone who's been posting here for what, now, three years?

Perhaps the "threat" of going to the basket was important, but it didn't seem like TT did it all that much. In theory he should have been able to blow right by the big defenders and post up the small ones; but mostly his game was about shooting 3 pointers.

Here is what he did in the Mav series:

May 24: hit 5 of 11 shots, 2 of 3 were for three. He did get to the line 6 times.

May 26: hit 8 of 18 shots, 4 of 10 of which were for three with no foul shots.

May 28: hit 4 of 8 shots, 3 of 4 were for three

May 30: hit only 2 of 2 shots missed all for three, took four foul shots and hit only 1

June 1 hit 9 of 14 shots and 5 of 8 were for three

June 3 hit only 4 of 11, missed all 3 of his three pointers.

For the most part, stopping his three point shooting was key to shutting him down.

 

[nowagimp]

Perhaps the "threat" of going to the basket was important, but it didn't seem like TT did it all that much. In theory he should have been able to blow right by the big defenders and post up the small ones; but mostly his game was about shooting 3 pointers.

Here is what he did in the Mav series:

May 24: hit 5 of 11 shots, 2 of 3 were for three. He did get to the line 6 times.

May 26: hit 8 of 18 shots, 4 of 10 of which were for three with no foul shots.

May 28: hit 4 of 8 shots, 3 of 4 were for three

May 30: hit only 2 of 2 shots missed all for three, took four foul shots and hit only 1

June 1 hit 9 of 14 shots and 5 of 8 were for three

June 3 hit only 4 of 11, missed all 3 of his three pointers.

For the most part, stopping his three point shooting was key to shutting him down.

You need to watch the games a little closer not just recite stats. You give what the defense takes and they gave TT the three when he was being guarded by a big(most of the time) and forced him to drive when he was guarded by a smaller player which was less a successful strategy that wasnt used as often. The opposing defense doubled as he went to the hoop on smaller players. I cant believe you didnt see that he scored several times OVER Kaman and Odom at the basket. You didnt see the dunks against the Mavs either?? TT was the only player on the suns who could shoot OVER the opposing bigs(the exception being Brand) at the rim on the suns.

 

[George O'Brien]

You need to watch the games a little closer not just recite stats. You give what the defense takes and they gave TT the three when he was being guarded by a big(most of the time) and forced him to drive when he was guarded by a smaller player which was less a successful strategy that wasnt used as often. The opposing defense doubled as he went to the hoop on smaller players. I cant believe you didnt see that he scored several times OVER Kaman and Odom at the basket. You didnt see the dunks against the Mavs either?? TT was the only player on the suns who could shoot OVER the opposing bigs(the exception being Brand) at the rim on the suns.

I did watch the games and it seemed like TT simply stood in the corner in the Mav series. He was more active in the Clipper series, but I was concerned that he did not attack more in the Mav series and I use the stats to support my impression.

 

[Errntknght]

Why single out the Mavs series - doing so is tantamount to saying the other two series don't back your claim as well as the Mavs series. Not the stats you've quoted demonstrate much of anything. Besides I agree that his 3pt shooting is the key - I just claim that it is the rest of his game that makes it hard for teams to defend his 3pt shooting. One could dispute that with stats, I'm sure, but they'd have to be well thought out and at a fine level of detail. The detail level that Synergy Sports provides would be what you'd want to use, I suspect.

 

[SweetD]

Told you when we traded him we could come back.

 

[nowagimp]

I did watch the games and it seemed like TT simply stood in the corner in the Mav series. He was more active in the Clipper series, but I was concerned that he did not attack more in the Mav series and I use the stats to support my impression.

After Raja was injured in the Mavs series, TT was the only credible 3 pt shooter that wasnt fatigued(Nash) or with newbie playoff jitters(Barbs, Jones). If you remember, Jason Terry actually said the game plan was to pack the paint and let Raja, on one good leg, shoot. Raja made ZERO 3pt shots after that injury in game 1. Sounds like a pretty good strategy, huh? Any spacing the suns could get(and there wasnt much) was due to the threat of TT shooting the three, so of course he wasnt driving the hoop. George, why is it that its so hard to understand that the offense takes what the defense gives?? When the offense decides that the paint will be packed, NO ONE will be consistently effective driving the hoop. Is it really that difficult to undertand? When Amare averaged 37ppg against the spurs in the '05 playoffs, it was partly because the spurs were not going to let Nash get the other players involved shooting 3's. The spurs guarded the 3pt line tenaciously, and let Amare have one-on-ones, it was their choice and it did work for them. Amare scored more against the spurs than the Mavs that year. You didnt think that was because the Mavs had better post defense did you?

 

[George O'Brien]

The other rule of thumb is to exploit the opponent's weaknesses. For some reason, the Suns never seemed to figure out that neither Dirk nor Jason Terry are particulary good man defenders. How is it that the guy Dirk was supposedly guarding never attackted the basket?

Was it D'Antoni's fault or were the Sun's players reluctant to get beat up going inside?

 

[slinslin]

Lampe is not good enough to play in the NBA.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Lampe is not good enough to play in the NBA.

Dem's fightin' words!

 

[MastersofCombat]

Lampe was staying at the Mirage where we were this weekend. He has the game to make the roster but Im not sure what is up with his status *injured slightly or something

 

[AZBALLER]

He's a very young big man with many skills...Let's take the time and develop this kid...He could be the perfect big man for our system.

 

[nowagimp]

The other rule of thumb is to exploit the opponent's weaknesses. For some reason, the Suns never seemed to figure out that neither Dirk nor Jason Terry are particulary good man defenders. How is it that the guy Dirk was supposedly guarding never attackted the basket?

Was it D'Antoni's fault or were the Sun's players reluctant to get beat up going inside?

The Mavs would drop into a Zone defense, you know, pack the paint against a team with few shooters, or shooting legs. Its easy to hide poor man on man defenders in a zone. Isnt it obvious?? Maybe the suns could hide Lampe there.

 

[nowagimp]

Lampe is not good enough to play in the NBA.

slinsn, how do you expect to explain that Lampe lack of a post game, inability to recieve a pass in traffic and finish, and total inability to play defense on post or wing players makes him not good enough to play in the NBA? Just because he is as slow as Mark Eaton, and has one skill - shooting open shots- what makes you think he's not ready to play center on an NBA championship contender??

 

[Mainstreet]

slinsn, how do you expect to explain that Lampe lack of a post game, inability to recieve a pass in traffic and finish, and total inability to play defense on post or wing players makes him not good enough to play in the NBA? Just because he is as slow as Mark Eaton, and has one skill - shooting open shots- what makes you think he's not ready to play center on an NBA championship contender??

Perhaps because he's only 21 and and hopefully has not peaked at this young age. Anyway, I would rather have him on the roster as a backup than a Pat Burke.

I think Lampe would have to be considered as a project player that can play a little now but has a lot of upside. Anyway, I'm only talking about the 11th or 12th man on the roster.

I note your sarcasm.

 

[nowagimp]

Perhaps because he's only 21 and and hopefully has not peaked at this young age. Anyway, I would rather have him on the roster as a backup than a Pat Burke.

I think Lampe would have to be considered as a project player that can play a little now but has a lot of upside. Anyway, I'm only talking about the 11th or 12th man on the roster.

I note your sarcasm.

Lampe upside is that he is big, young and can shoot. I expect that the hope is that he will develop enough athleticism, quickness, and coordination to play defense, receive the pass, make moves and finish. My problem is that unless he's so young he's uncoordinated, the best that can be hoped for is that he develops into a poor mans Piatkowski over the next several years. Right now, He's Jake Tsakalidis with an outside shot, and not as much rebounding or defense.

 

[Errntknght]

nowagimp, "slinsn, how do you expect to explain that Lampe lack of a post game, inability to recieve a pass in traffic and finish, and total inability to play defense on post or wing players makes him not good enough to play in the NBA? Just because he is as slow as Mark Eaton, and has one skill - shooting open shots- what makes you think he's not ready to play center on an NBA championship contender??"

I can't imagine anyone thinking Lampe was ready to start at C for an NBA team but I also can't imagine you've ever seen him play - unless injuries have dramatically changed him since he played for the Suns a couple of years ago and thats what you've seen.

For starters he's not slow running the floor - one play I remember was him beating everyone down floor, scooping up a very low bounce pass on the dead run and quickly laying it in. Slick. He didn't have many opportunities to show his catching ability in traffic but I certainly don't recall him having any trouble handling the passes thrown to him.

Is is good defender? No, but not for the reasons you stated. He's rather like TT on defense in that he defends quite well 1-1 but he's far too prone to switch on a screen and he doesn't protect the painted area well. He differs from TT in the he doesn't body up as well but he has better defensive footwork. He probably doesn't trap off the P&R as well as TT did, but he was never asked to do that, so I'm guessing.

In fact, when Lampe was here he was not given defensive assignments against big strong C/PFs - almost invariably his man was a SF. I figured because he was so young that they didn't want him getting knocked around too much. He did surprisingly well staying in front of guys who you'd expect to be much quicker than he was and when he did switch onto a big he held his own - in fact, I recall him frustrating Brand three times in a short stretch. It rather irritated me at the time that the coaches wouldn't let him spend some time as the prime defender on an opponent big - enough time to see how he fared.

He didn't show a post game but it certainly looked to me like the coaches wanted him to play outside - though not being privvy to what was said to him, I'm not sure. I used to wish that he'd try going inside, even if the coaches didn't want him to, just to see how he did.

The team did not run the P&R with him - which might lead one to conclude that it was because he couldn't catch in traffic but it might mean that they thought his outside shooting was good enough to use in a pick and pop, which they did run occasionally. As young as he was and as little as he played, I'd be leery of drawing inferences from what the coaches didn't ask him to do.

This reminds me of defending TT near the end of the regular season when almost everyone was issuing sweeping condemnations of his defense, rebounding and for failing to box out. How James Jones was better at everything. <<rolls eyes>>

 

[George O'Brien]

Lampe played so little it is hard to imagine what he can or can't do. In his first year he was not in condition to play and it really held him back. In his second year, I think his time spent with the Polish national team held him back as he hardly played and did not use the time for conditioning.

Still, from all indications, while Suns felt he was making progress, the need for Jimmy Jackson meant he had to go. If as we are told, he was injured last season, the bottom line is that we don't know what he can do if healthy and in condition.

The history of big men is that they take time and Euros seem to take even longer. Unless he wants a lot of money, I think he's worth the patience.

 

[nowagimp]

nowagimp, "slinsn, how do you expect to explain that Lampe lack of a post game, inability to recieve a pass in traffic and finish, and total inability to play defense on post or wing players makes him not good enough to play in the NBA? Just because he is as slow as Mark Eaton, and has one skill - shooting open shots- what makes you think he's not ready to play center on an NBA championship contender??"

I can't imagine anyone thinking Lampe was ready to start at C for an NBA team but I also can't imagine you've ever seen him play - unless injuries have dramatically changed him since he played for the Suns a couple of years ago and thats what you've seen.

For starters he's not slow running the floor - one play I remember was him beating everyone down floor, scooping up a very low bounce pass on the dead run and quickly laying it in. Slick. He didn't have many opportunities to show his catching ability in traffic but I certainly don't recall him having any trouble handling the passes thrown to him.

Is is good defender? No, but not for the reasons you stated. He's rather like TT on defense in that he defends quite well 1-1 but he's far too prone to switch on a screen and he doesn't protect the painted area well. He differs from TT in the he doesn't body up as well but he has better defensive footwork. He probably doesn't trap off the P&R as well as TT did, but he was never asked to do that, so I'm guessing.

In fact, when Lampe was here he was not given defensive assignments against big strong C/PFs - almost invariably his man was a SF. I figured because he was so young that they didn't want him getting knocked around too much. He did surprisingly well staying in front of guys who you'd expect to be much quicker than he was and when he did switch onto a big he held his own - in fact, I recall him frustrating Brand three times in a short stretch. It rather irritated me at the time that the coaches wouldn't let him spend some time as the prime defender on an opponent big - enough time to see how he fared.

He didn't show a post game but it certainly looked to me like the coaches wanted him to play outside - though not being privvy to what was said to him, I'm not sure. I used to wish that he'd try going inside, even if the coaches didn't want him to, just to see how he did.

The team did not run the P&R with him - which might lead one to conclude that it was because he couldn't catch in traffic but it might mean that they thought his outside shooting was good enough to use in a pick and pop, which they did run occasionally. As young as he was and as little as he played, I'd be leery of drawing inferences from what the coaches didn't ask him to do.

This reminds me of defending TT near the end of the regular season when almost everyone was issuing sweeping condemnations of his defense, rebounding and for failing to box out. How James Jones was better at everything. <<rolls eyes>>

1) Never mentioned starting at center. Could see him being productive against the Rashos of the NBA(how many Rashos are there?).

2) Running down the floor can be subjective as everyone doesnt start running at the same time. Did he beat small forwards down the floor?? My perceptions about quickness are based on Lampe's ability to stay in front of his defensive assignment, which was not good. Maybe this was due to his being assigned to smaller players. He also did not handle the ball well, cant beat almost anyone off the dribble. I can hardly believe that you Errntknght compare him with TT. His footwork better than TT?, OMG, I dont know what to say to that one.


3) He didnt play post defense much probably because he couldnt. Coaches play poor defenders where they can do the least damage. Lampe would play well off his man on the perimeter hoping to discourage a penetration and using his length to hopefully bother the shot. I did see a few plays inside where he was just destroyed by a post player(joe NBA average post player). The guy doesnt even know how to get low enough on defense to counter energies in the post, he stands almost upright on his assignment down there. He needs to watch how KT does it and work on his legs so he's strong and mobile when he sets up low. He just looks so uncomfortable when he even bends his legs on D.

4) catching in traffic is actually a rare skill for a big man and even more rare for a young big man. Its one that Lampe has never demonstrated, I wonder why, with it being such a useful skill.

Do I think he's worth a look again?? Yeah, someday he may become a smoother player, but he has a very long way to go to be able to defend at the NBA level. I do think he could become a better garbagetime player than a 36 year old Piatkowski.


You know one last thing bothers me, with the value of big men through the roof in the NBA, why is Lampe such an undesirable project at a minimum salary for so many teams? I think I know why, as stated above, but its just my opinion and I have been wrong before.

 

[George O'Brien]

Last season Darko was considered a total bust before going to Orlando where he opened a lot of eyes. Diop was viewed as an enormous flop with the Cavs before becoming a key player on the Mavs. Diop's problem is one that plagues Lampe - condiditioning. Big and slow doesn't work for most teams, but big and fast does.

If Lampe gets below 250, he's got a real chance. But he's got a lot to prove.

 

[panfolk]

Bring back Lampe and it'll help most fans from feeling gyped by the last 3 drafts.

 

[Errntknght]

nowagimp, "Never mentioned starting at center."

You were vague with "ready to play center for..." and I chose one of the common meanings of that - the principal center for the team.


"Running down the floor can be subjective as everyone doesnt start running at the same time. Did he beat small forwards down the floor??"

Before you claimed he was as slow as Mark Eaton and now your quibbling about who he beat down floor on a fast break?


"My perceptions about quickness are based on Lampe's ability to stay in front of his defensive assignment, which was not good. Maybe this was due to his being assigned to smaller players."

I would say it more likely due to his unfortunate habit of switching onto every player that came by and this included guards who could run by him.


"He also did not handle the ball well, cant beat almost anyone off the dribble."

I agree he showed very little ability to beat other players off the dribble. But his ball handling is fairly good for a man his size. The problem was not that he was inept at it but he made poor judgements about when to indulge in it and what his limits were. I'd say he's better than KT but Kurt stays within his limitations.


"I can hardly believe that you Errntknght compare him with TT. His footwork better than TT?, OMG, I dont know what to say to that one."

I compared only his defense to TT's and was specific about it. I stand by my opinion that his defensive footwork is better than TT's - however improbable you may find it. With any luck we'll have lots of opportunities to see who is right about that.


"I did see a few plays inside where he was just destroyed by a post player(joe NBA average post player)."

I didn't see any plays like that when he was defending a Joe NBA average post player. But, I did see plays where he could have picked up someone else's man going to the hoop and failed to do anything at all about it.

 

[nowagimp]

nowagimp, "Never mentioned starting at center."

You were vague with "ready to play center for..." and I chose one of the common meanings of that - the principal center for the team.


"Running down the floor can be subjective as everyone doesnt start running at the same time. Did he beat small forwards down the floor??"

Before you claimed he was as slow as Mark Eaton and now your quibbling about who he beat down floor on a fast break?


"My perceptions about quickness are based on Lampe's ability to stay in front of his defensive assignment, which was not good. Maybe this was due to his being assigned to smaller players."

I would say it more likely due to his unfortunate habit of switching onto every player that came by and this included guards who could run by him.


"He also did not handle the ball well, cant beat almost anyone off the dribble."

I agree he showed very little ability to beat other players off the dribble. But his ball handling is fairly good for a man his size. The problem was not that he was inept at it but he made poor judgements about when to indulge in it and what his limits were. I'd say he's better than KT but Kurt stays within his limitations.


"I can hardly believe that you Errntknght compare him with TT. His footwork better than TT?, OMG, I dont know what to say to that one."

I compared only his defense to TT's and was specific about it. I stand by my opinion that his defensive footwork is better than TT's - however improbable you may find it. With any luck we'll have lots of opportunities to see who is right about that.


"I did see a few plays inside where he was just destroyed by a post player(joe NBA average post player)."

I didn't see any plays like that when he was defending a Joe NBA average post player. But, I did see plays where he could have picked up someone else's man going to the hoop and failed to do anything at all about it.

My main concern with lampe is defensive footspeed and maybe strength on defense in the post, so fast breaks are an irrelevant measure of lampe ability to deal with his weaknesses as I perceive them. Defense requires alot of directional change(tough for bigs) not required on the break. I am not especially concerned with Lampe's ability to run the floor with guys like Barbosa, Amare, Diaw, Bell and Marion around, it probably wont have nearly the impact on his +/-. If I can get you to think defense, this arguement might make some sense, but you seem to not remember what lampe can do there.

Mark Eaton was used sarcastically to make a point, sorry you didnt pick up on that one, as Eaton was probably the slowest defender (footspeed wise) in modern NBA history. Larry Bird is probably more appropriate, but I have a real problem with mentioning Larrys name with lampe's as defensive footspeed is maybe the only thing they have in common. I'll grant you that watching players in garbage time in the NBA makes it more difficult to evaluate them, and Lampe has not played many meaningful minutes in his NBA career.

Well I guess we see what we see. What I saw is that lampe doesnt move his feet well in a crouched or sunken stance, he looks uncomfortable and slow (in a crouched stance). I tend to notice such things from when I played ball, it was the first thing I looked for in my defender. I'd probe his foot movement off the dribble and if he couldnt move well(on the perimeter), I'd to take it to the rack. If he didnt drop into a low stance I'd attack him immediately off the dribble. In my opinion, its probably the best way to quickly evaluate a defenders ability is to observe the way he moves in a crouched stance. Is he quick or fluid compared with guys he may have to defend. For Bigs: Will he be able to absorb alot of energy on the low block without losing his balance. Does he move his feet well in response to body contact in the post or does his foot movement lag the contact too much causing a loss of balance(Lampe). KT actually anticipates and sometimes moves before the offensive player to establish position and strength(in a lowered stance). This is how KT can make up for the loss of footspeed with age, but KT is an incredibly knowledgable and experienced defender. The way I see it, lampe needs ALOT of work in these areas. I have not heard anything impressive(or negative) about his work ethic, but he really needs to be "amarelike" to make it happen.

 

[Errntknght]

You ragged on every aspect of Lampe's game except his outside shot so you shouldn't be too surprised that I didn't figure out that you were only concerned about his defensive 'footspeed' and stance. I guess that goes a ways to explain the mystery of why you would be glad to have him join the team.

I won't dispute what you say about his stance - I do recall him being quite upright.

When people talk about a basketball player's footspeed they are usually referring to his speed up and down the floor so you threw me off there.

Now that I know what you are talking about I still disagree. I claim that his big problems on defense are mental not physical. Mark Eaton for all his lack of movement speed was quite good at defending the paint because he had good awareness of what was happening around him - he was always among the league leaders in blocked shots (of course, his 7'4 height helped as did his wingspan.) That kind of awareness is what Lampe lacks not defensive quickness, IMO. Look how quick Amare was (and hopefully still is) and yet he was a poor defender most of the time.

Maybe we'll have a chance to see who's observations on Lampe's D are closer to the mark in the near future.

 

[nowagimp]

You ragged on every aspect of Lampe's game except his outside shot so you shouldn't be too surprised that I didn't figure out that you were only concerned about his defensive 'footspeed' and stance. I guess that goes a ways to explain the mystery of why you would be glad to have him join the team.

I won't dispute what you say about his stance - I do recall him being quite upright.

When people talk about a basketball player's footspeed they are usually referring to his speed up and down the floor so you threw me off there.

Now that I know what you are talking about I still disagree. I claim that his big problems on defense are mental not physical. Mark Eaton for all his lack of movement speed was quite good at defending the paint because he had good awareness of what was happening around him - he was always among the league leaders in blocked shots (of course, his 7'4 height helped as did his wingspan.) That kind of awareness is what Lampe lacks not defensive quickness, IMO. Look how quick Amare was (and hopefully still is) and yet he was a poor defender most of the time.

Maybe we'll have a chance to see who's observations on Lampe's D are closer to the mark in the near future.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". This has been beat to death with very little relevant objective discussion remaining. I will never be convinced that defensive footspeed in the halfcourt is primarily mental. I've played too much ball, and beaten too many guys off the dribble(who moved in an upright stance, just like lampe), to ever believe it is not physical quickness and conditioning with some experience(gotta know the tricks of the trade). To think that lampe, at the NBA level, just needs to learn some high school level skills, is disturbing.

I guess we shall see IF Lampe gets his chance.

 

[George O'Brien]

I can't imagine that Mourning has more quickness than Lampe. What he has is strength and an understanding of how to get the job done. Call it experience, good coaching or mental, he was a difference maker in the finals.