About Lampe's Debut

[SunsTzu]

Originally posted by elindholm
Brad Miller was traded twice....

Trading a player is not the same as "giving up" on him. Even Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, and O'Neal changed teams. I meant cases where the first team "didn't know what they had," so to speak.

Well the 1st time he was traded he was not a known talent, only potential to be good. Ben Wallace is a guy that didn't get much of a chance until he got to Detriot after stints in Orlando and Washington. You also mentioned J. O'neal, and all those guys were older and had more chances to prove themselves. Lampe was drafted as a project much like Darko. Just becuase someone is a project doesn't make them bad, the league has quite a few guys that didn't do anything till there 3rd year.

 

[elindholm]

Yep, Ben Wallace is another good example. So that's two.

 

[George O'Brien]

At draft time everyone will agree that most big men take more time than outside guys to be a factor. This is immediately lost. The Darkos and Skeets of the world are immediately branded failures because the outside guys have a more immediate impact. Amare was very very unusual. He had an impact much more quickly than anyone should have expected.

One of the problems with the current NBA contract is the rookie salary structure. The really big money does not come until after the player has been in the league for four years. For great talents, it makes sense to start at 18 rather than 22 -- if he is SURE to be great.

Typically college seniors are not top picks because the most talented players have left. But the ones that stay are often much better schooled. You have to wonder if Shaq and Duncan would have been instant stars if they had come out as freshmen.

Is it a coincidence that there have not been any GREAT centers come out of college since Duncan? Among the better ones that later, Brad Miller and Jamaal Magloire both came out as seniors.

I suspect that more and more teams will turn to Europeans, because they have overall fundimentals, even when very young. But most are not prepared to play center, particularly on the defensive end. Radoslav Nesterovic did not become particularly productive until his fourth year. Mehmet Okur's offense has been good, but his defense is only average and he will be 25 this May.

I expect that Lampe will become a factor at some point, but I expect he has a long way to go. Unfortunately, it may not be possible to get a center in the draft who will help any quicker.

 

[elindholm]

I agree with most of this, but not with the implication that Nesterovic and Okur are shining examples of what centers can become with time.

In my opinion Nesterovic is nothing special -- he has benefitted from playing alongside first Garnett and then Duncan, creating lots of easy opportunities. You could say the same about Slava Medvedenko.

Okur doesn't seem to fit the mold of what you say you want in a center, which is an intimidating shot-blocker and all-purpose paint-stormer. Okur averages less than a block a game and isn't much of a rebounding presence (particularly on the defensive glass). For that matter, his offensive game isn't classic for a "center" either, with heavier reliance on perimeter play and a relatively poor overall FG%.

In fact, centers destined for greatness -- or, let's face it, even "goodness" -- virtually always go very early in the draft, no matter how old they are or where they're from. It is possible to identify a very small number of exceptions, but they are extraordinarily rare.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
I agree with most of this, but not with the implication that Nesterovic and Okur are shining examples of what centers can become with time.

In my opinion Nesterovic is nothing special -- he has benefitted from playing alongside first Garnett and then Duncan, creating lots of easy opportunities. You could say the same about Slava Medvedenko.

Okur doesn't seem to fit the mold of what you say you want in a center, which is an intimidating shot-blocker and all-purpose paint-stormer. Okur averages less than a block a game and isn't much of a rebounding presence (particularly on the defensive glass). For that matter, his offensive game isn't classic for a "center" either, with heavier reliance on perimeter play and a relatively poor overall FG%.

In fact, centers destined for greatness -- or, let's face it, even "goodness" -- virtually always go very early in the draft, no matter how old they are or where they're from. It is possible to identify a very small number of exceptions, but they are extraordinarily rare.

As you know, I have never been a fan of bidding on Okur. Nesterovic is "OK" but but not an elite player. Both are much better offensively than defensively. Good teammates help.

At this point the top center projects are being drafted extremely young. They are spending the equivalent of their college years trying to learn the game while in the NBA, which is why they are such crap shoots. The tough part is that talent alone is not enough, or else Eddie Curry and DeSagana Diop would be stars rather than still projects. They may never be more.

I wish these guys would go to college for four years. I think the relative decline of competant centers are a result of guys getting into the NBA and never learning how to play.

 

[George O'Brien]

It is too bad the NBA does not create a real farm system. Guys like Lampe need to play, to be given proper coaching, and be availabe to play when the time comes. Too many guys will spend four years in the NBA but end up with about a half year of experience and no training.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by elindholm
Brad Miller was traded twice....

Trading a player is not the same as "giving up" on him. Even Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, and O'Neal changed teams. I meant cases where the first team "didn't know what they had," so to speak.

If the implication is that the Knicks "gave up" on Lampe, I would contend that it is false.

They traded Lampe--a "big" that they had hopes for the future--for the immediate fix in a very exciting pg (one of the top two in the league) who also happens to be a home town boy.

There are many cases of teams knowing what they had and then moving in a different direction. Jabbar, Chamberlain, Mutombo, Walton, Jermaine O'Neal, Brad Miller, Longley, Divac, etc.












I know what I did, I was just seeing if you were paying attention.

 

[Chaplin]

I can almost guarantee that Bryan asked for Lampe and the rights to Milos as a requirement for trading Steph too. I can't imagine New York offering them up front. I'm guessing their original offer was McDyess, Eisley and a first for Steph and Penny (even if it didn't work money-wise).

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I can almost guarantee that Bryan asked for Lampe and the rights to Milos as a requirement for trading Steph too. I can't imagine New York offering them up front. I'm guessing their original offer was McDyess, Eisley and a first for Steph and Penny (even if it didn't work money-wise).

When the rumors first came out, I was against the trade until I learned that Lampe was included. (I'll admit I did not know that much about Milos although he was mentioned a number of times). Once I heard that Lampe was included, I changed my mind.

Last summer everyone was sure Lampe was going to be a lottery pick until Real Madrid sent that letter that convinced teams his contract would keep him out of the NBA for a couple of years.

As I've said several times, there is no one in this draft that is getting the kind of rave reports that Lampe was getting last summer. Unfortunately, he is very young and unseasoned.