Advice for Kurt Warner

[Russ Smith]

Here is the deal.

If the Cardinals are going to go out and win a playoff game, it will be because of Warner.

Who else do you think can go out and win a playoff game? Tim Hightower? Our wretched defense? Rackers?

Take away the passing part of the game, and every team in the playoffs will clearly be better than us...and by a gigantic margin.

Our only hope of winning lies with Kurt and his right arm.

He will need to make magic.

Maybe he stinks up the joint and we get whacked. But don't pretend that he can just play it safe, and we have any chance of beating a decent playoff team.

I don't think you follow me. All I'm saying is Kurt needs to eliminate the totally on him turnovers like the 2 against the Eagles early, where he just literally throws the ball to the defense for no apparent reason. In the playoffs on the road if you do that, you lose. If you don't make those dumb plays our offense is good enough to win. We played the Giants tough, we beat Dallas, we played Carolina tough.

We have 2 great WR's and an MVP candidate at QB, we can score on anybody and we've been in just about every game this year. The 2 we weren't really in were the Jets(we got back into it a bit) and the Eagles, both games where Kurt gave up the ball repeatedly.

this team is good enough that if he protects the ball, we can win more than just one playoff game.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

This is insane!

I wish I would have left this monster alone and maybe no one else would have bumped it up. Yes, Warner does throw a bad pass here and there(very rare considering), but he's also around the most TD passes thrown. He's number 2 in QB rating behind a guy with less pressure to produce. I couldn't be happier with the overall job Warner has done, but decided to nit pick. DUMB, DUMB, move!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It would be nice if all the Warner defenders would acknowledge ONCE IN AWHILE that he makes dumb plays that you expect more out of a decade long vet. And to be honest Kurt isn't the type of player who can be quantified in stats.

For all his pinball like numbers that you guys tout I could really care less. I am most interested in what he does to win the game. Thats what all great QB's are judged upon. And since he left St Louis his W-L ain't all that impressive.

The people who get down on Kurt are the ones who see him falling into his old tendencies. You are famliar with those right? You know the years he couldn't get on the field because he can't take care of the ball? Do you think we all have a vendetta or something? Maybe we are seeing what four different coaching staffs in the past saw and that for all his good - he can single handedly toss away a game with his perplexing decision making.

I mean what the hell was he thinking making that throw yesterday? There are alot of INT's in this league that happen because a coverage is disguised well or a tipped pass. And then there are those that happen because a 38 year old with no wheels decides to roll out of the pocket and throw across his body right into three defenders. Just an insanely bad decision.

Can you defend that? Really? I think this year we ALL AGREE that Warner's good has outweighted his bad. But man does he still do somethings that drive me nuts. Holding on to the ball too long and throwing into triple coverage to name a couple.

And if you look at the best teams we have faced - that's when it gets most pronounced.

But lets get to the point of this thread. The Warner defend at all costs posters are irrational. Admitedlly some of us like Matt and want to see him succeed.


But I care about the team winning first and foremost. You'll notice I am supporting Kurt and acknowledge alot of the good he brings to the table. Rollerocks (and I think he should be banned for calling Evil Ash a Leinart bootlicker - he has some balls with that crap)Mokler, IA, and some of the others don't seem to recognize the flaws of Kurt.

It's somewhere in the middle guys. Lets celebrate the division and ride this out with Warner for better or for worse and revisit all this in the offseason.

 

[moklerman]

You know the years he couldn't get on the field because he can't take care of the ball?

Wouldn't you agree that that had a lot more to do with the fumbles than anything else?

Mokler, IA, and some of the others don't seem to recognize the flaws of Kurt.

In my particular case, I think some don't seem to acknowledge that I indeed have criticized the very plays in question. No excuse for either Fitz interception and although I questioned Urban's route, I pointed out that he had JJ wide open and didn't make the best choice possible.

My argument is, and has been, that Warner's play hasn't regressed to the can't take a snap, phantom fumbling QB that lost his job a couple of different times. When I try to illustrate how looking a little closer at what actually happened, the labels and hate emerge.

Not once have I considered Warner blameless or flawless in his play.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It would be nice if all the Warner defenders would acknowledge ONCE IN AWHILE that he makes dumb plays that you expect more out of a decade long vet. And to be honest Kurt isn't the type of player who can be quantified in stats.

For all his pinball like numbers that you guys tout I could really care less. I am most interested in what he does to win the game. Thats what all great QB's are judged upon. And since he left St Louis his W-L ain't all that impressive.

The people who get down on Kurt are the ones who see him falling into his old tendencies. You are famliar with those right? You know the years he couldn't get on the field because he can't take care of the ball? Do you think we all have a vendetta or something? Maybe we are seeing what four different coaching staffs in the past saw and that for all his good - he can single handedly toss away a game with his perplexing decision making.

I mean what the hell was he thinking making that throw yesterday? There are alot of INT's in this league that happen because a coverage is disguised well or a tipped pass. And then there are those that happen because a 38 year old with no wheels decides to roll out of the pocket and throw across his body right into three defenders. Just an insanely bad decision.

Can you defend that? Really? I think this year we ALL AGREE that Warner's good has outweighted his bad. But man does he still do somethings that drive me nuts. Holding on to the ball too long and throwing into triple coverage to name a couple.

And if you look at the best teams we have faced - that's when it gets most pronounced.

But lets get to the point of this thread. The Warner defend at all costs posters are irrational. Admitedlly some of us like Matt and want to see him succeed.


But I care about the team winning first and foremost. You'll notice I am supporting Kurt and acknowledge alot of the good he brings to the table. Rollerocks (and I think he should be banned for calling Evil Ash a Leinart bootlicker - he has some balls with that crap)Mokler, IA, and some of the others don't seem to recognize the flaws of Kurt.

It's somewhere in the middle guys. Lets celebrate the division and ride this out with Warner for better or for worse and revisit all this in the offseason.

You're right, all he's done is lead a team with no running game and a defense that has been poor at best at times to the Cardinals first division title in 33 years and it's not impressive. I don't have to read the rest of that, you've got me sold on what you are saying.

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

I'm with "Finest" on this one...

BEFORE I say anything let me say this: WE ARE NFC WEST DIVISION CHAMPIONS!! ...And in the play-offs, EVERY year, there are "surprises". Bank on it! This year, Kurt gives us the BEST chance to WIN. Next year is not even on my radar right now. EVERY QB I've ever seen makes GREAT throws AND some bone-head ones, as well. You just hope the good outweighs the bad, and the TO's aren't killers. All this conjecturing is just that. Pure speculation. as my brother often says, It'll be what it'll be. But here's da' fact, Jack. (Luv'd "STRIPES") WE have a HOME play-off game! So, you gotta' factor in the "Loud & Proud" factor! GO CARDS!

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Warner is a HOF QB. To me that isn't an issue. Honestly we are lucky to have two HOF players on our roster this year, even if one has declined significantly.

Define declining! He's doing just as much with far less than he ever has in the past. Yeah, I'll go along with that. That sure is declining.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Favre had Grant last season, who compared to what we have this year is Walter Payton...

did you miss where I said in Favre's first half last season he had THE WORST running attack in the league? or just ignore it because it didn't fit with your hypothesis?

Manning has a better run game this year,

yeah, by a whopping 3 yards a game. Ours is ranked 32nd, the Colts are ranked 31st. 75 v. 78 ypg.

yet Warner is blowing him away in virtually all statistical QB categories..

22 TDs to 25 isn't blowing anything away and and does blow him away in yardage (and I guess turnovers since Warner has 18 to Manning's 12).

You're right... Warner is not like them at all...

glad you agree.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You're right, all he's done is lead a team with no running game and a defense that has been poor at best at times to the Cardinals first division title in 33 years and it's not impressive.

do you think it's mere coincidence that the D plays decent in game where we have 1 or turnover or less and gives up a lot of points when we have 2 turnovers or more. The D and the O aren't unit wholy indepedent of each other. What each one does on the field DOES have an effect on the other unit.

 

[Spielman]

Define declining! He's doing just as much with far less than he ever has in the past. Yeah, I'll go along with that. That sure is declining.

I think he may have been referring to Edgerrin James as the declining HOFer.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Again with this dribble ?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/the-warner-of-old-124031-15.html

I thought you guys could have sorted this out over the last two weeks!

Warner is no where near as good as some of you think.

He is no where near as bad as some of you think.

He is someone in between.

Furthermore, 6 pages about one INT is ridiculous.

It was an bad throw, and even Warner admitted himself that it was a bad throw. Are you guys going to call up Warner and tell him it wasn't ?

Jeez, give it a rest.

 

[Cards232]

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It would be nice if all the Warner defenders would acknowledge ONCE IN AWHILE that he makes dumb plays that you expect more out of a decade long vet. And to be honest Kurt isn't the type of player who can be quantified in stats.

For all his pinball like numbers that you guys tout I could really care less. I am most interested in what he does to win the game. Thats what all great QB's are judged upon. And since he left St Louis his W-L ain't all that impressive.

The people who get down on Kurt are the ones who see him falling into his old tendencies. You are famliar with those right? You know the years he couldn't get on the field because he can't take care of the ball? Do you think we all have a vendetta or something? Maybe we are seeing what four different coaching staffs in the past saw and that for all his good - he can single handedly toss away a game with his perplexing decision making.

I mean what the hell was he thinking making that throw yesterday? There are alot of INT's in this league that happen because a coverage is disguised well or a tipped pass. And then there are those that happen because a 38 year old with no wheels decides to roll out of the pocket and throw across his body right into three defenders. Just an insanely bad decision.

Can you defend that? Really? I think this year we ALL AGREE that Warner's good has outweighted his bad. But man does he still do somethings that drive me nuts. Holding on to the ball too long and throwing into triple coverage to name a couple.

And if you look at the best teams we have faced - that's when it gets most pronounced.

But lets get to the point of this thread. The Warner defend at all costs posters are irrational. Admitedlly some of us like Matt and want to see him succeed.


But I care about the team winning first and foremost. You'll notice I am supporting Kurt and acknowledge alot of the good he brings to the table. Rollerocks (and I think he should be banned for calling Evil Ash a Leinart bootlicker - he has some balls with that crap)Mokler, IA, and some of the others don't seem to recognize the flaws of Kurt.

It's somewhere in the middle guys. Lets celebrate the division and ride this out with Warner for better or for worse and revisit all this in the offseason.

Just out of curiosity, can you name me one HOF qb that hasn't made boneheaded mistakes, sometimes even in crucial situations, throughout their career & during EVERY season? I've been watching football for longer than some of you have been alive, & I can't remember one. And I'm not just talking about 1 boneheaded mistake. Every HOF qb I've ever watched has made several boneheaded plays during every season. It's part of the game.

Now, have Manning or Favre played better than Warner this year? They're both potential HOF'rs. Have they both made boneheaded plays this year, let alone their careers? Your perfect expectations for Warner are unrealistic by historical standards. Warner is having a better year this year stat wise than many of Montana's years. And he's doing it w/o a running game or a defense worth a crap.

Perhaps if some of you had expectations that were a little more realistic, even just HOF type realistic, this year might be a little more enjoyable for you. For Crying out loud, what were the expectations before Warner got here? It's not like this program was a 1980's Niner vintage kind of team. It still isn't. But we're a lot further along than we have ever been. A lot of that has to do w/ a qb that makes some boneheaded mistakes from time to time. That's just one area Warner has in common w/ all the HOF'rs.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

did you miss where I said in Favre's first half last season he had THE WORST running attack in the league? or just ignore it because it didn't fit with your hypothesis?



yeah, by a whopping 3 yards a game. Ours is ranked 32nd, the Colts are ranked 31st. 75 v. 78 ypg.



22 TDs to 25 isn't blowing anything away and and does blow him away in yardage (and I guess turnovers since Warner has 18 to Manning's 12).



glad you agree.

This has gotten insane. It has gotten to the point where even those who acknowledge they love Kurt are having to rip him to shreds because of the blind defense put on by the people who fight tooth and nail for Kurt.

Let me give you an analogy. You can have friends in life and still recognize their flaws. And for all their good and how great of freinds they are they can still have some damning faults. Recognizing them doesn't mean you hate them or don't want to be their friends. But pretending they don't exist doesn't help either.

Many of us are just recognizing that Kurt has a tendency to let his turnovers get out of control and it can cost us in the near term (games)and most defintiely in the long term (this postseason and beyond).

For all the comparisons being made between Warner and all those other QB's how many of them have 6 turnovers in a half - in their career - let alone this season? And what about when he threw 2 picks on the first 3 drives in Philly? Even with the defense giving up that first drive we are still in that game with even a mediocre QB who doesn't turn over the ball.

That's what we are saying. When he is BAD he is real BAD - like destroy the game by himself BAD. Meaning we could have AP, with the 70's Steelers olines, and the 85 Bears defense and it wouldn't matter. That's how bad.

And for what its worth I think Romo has gotten a free pass for too long and is EXACTLY the same when it comes to this type of thing. He tries to do to much.

So I think we are all in agreeance. Throw the damn ball away. Not because a bunch of fans are going to jump down your throat and you can maintain your 'image' Kurt.

But because we want to be the best team we can be.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Define declining! He's doing just as much with far less than he ever has in the past. Yeah, I'll go along with that. That sure is declining.

This will be the first year in the last 8 that Warner plays a full 16 games.

He has had good numbers (they have been great actually) for 1.5 years out of the last 8 years.

He is 37 years old going on 38 years old.

He couldn't run around when he was young, and he can run even less.

Saying he is getting things done with "far less" is a joke. Maybe without a running game, but his 3 WR here are better than Bruce, Holt, and Hakim were ever.

Throw stats, and numbers out the window. When talking strictly about time....Warner is in decline. Just as Farve is. Both still are good players but father time is not on either of thier sides.

Warner is going to play for 3 more years tops, and at any moment that 37 year old arm, and body is going to fall apart. I understand that is an assumption but saying a 37 year old QB is going to start showing kinks in the armour is not that big of a reach. You can already see the season taking its toll right now. Warner is still playing well, but far from what he was doing weeks 4 through 10.

When taking money into account. You are going to have to pay for both Warner and Leinart if you want to keep Warner. You are going to have to deal with the fact keeping them both is going to hurt the defense and the run game by tying up millions in Boldin, Fitzgerald, Warner, and Leinart.

Just the facts of the situation.

Personally. I have no problems starting Warner, re-signing Warner, and doing whatever Whiz thinks is the way to go.

I started the season supporting whatever the coaches want to do, and it seems to be good luck. I don't always agree (wanted to start Leinart, and keep Edge as the starter) but I still support the coaches decisions.

And that is all I am going to say about that. Fighting in these threads are ridiculous. Sooner or later there will be a debate about whether Warner is actually 37 years old, and if he was put in a time machine to make him 27 again. LOL

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Just out of curiosity, can you name me one HOF qb that hasn't made boneheaded mistakes, sometimes even in crucial situations, throughout their career & during EVERY season? I've been watching football for longer than some of you have been alive, & I can't remember one. And I'm not just talking about 1 boneheaded mistake. Every HOF qb I've ever watched has made several boneheaded plays during every season. It's part of the game.

Now, have Manning or Favre played better than Warner this year? They're both potential HOF'rs. Have they both made boneheaded plays this year, let alone their careers? Your perfect expectations for Warner are unrealistic by historical standards. Warner is having a better year this year stat wise than many of Montana's years. And he's doing it w/o a running game or a defense worth a crap.

Perhaps if some of you had expectations that were a little more realistic, even just HOF type realistic, this year might be a little more enjoyable for you. For Crying out loud, what were the expectations before Warner got here? It's not like this program was a 1980's Niner vintage kind of team. It still isn't. But we're a lot further along than we have ever been. A lot of that has to do w/ a qb that makes some boneheaded mistakes from time to time. That's just one area Warner has in common w/ all the HOF'rs.

I like Tom Brady for one.

Peyton Manning seems to be pretty consistent in protecting the ball.

I love what Chad Pennington has done this year.

Aaron Rodgers takes care of the ball pretty well.

Ben gets too loose with the ball for my liking but he is still young.

Bottom line is when you turnover the ball you lose.

Many HOF QB's have made boneheaded decisions before.

Not many of them have led the league in T.O's as rookies let alone as 12 year vets.

The difference is not making boneheaded decisions. That happens. It's how OFTEN you do them. That's what the point is.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just out of curiosity, can you name me one HOF qb that hasn't made boneheaded mistakes, sometimes even in crucial situations, throughout their career & during EVERY season? I've been watching football for longer than some of you have been alive, & I can't remember one. And I'm not just talking about 1 boneheaded mistake. Every HOF qb I've ever watched has made several boneheaded plays during every season.

you're right, they do make bonehead mistakes from time to time. What they don't do is lead the league in turnovers or have TD:Turnover ratios in the negative over the course of 7 years like Warner has since he left the greatest offense of all time.

Perhaps if some of you had expectations that were a little more realistic, even just HOF type realistic, this year might be a little more enjoyable for you.

who's to say those people aren't enjoying the hell out of this season? Just because they bring up criticisms of the QB who has been a mixed bag the last four weeks doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the team overall. The team IS bigger than Warner no matter how much Warner-philes want it to be.

again, everyone wants to completely bag on the D as the worst ever, but it's not a coincidence that the D has been able to play decent football in games where the offense turns the ball over 1 or fewer times a game. I mean, if the D was really that bad, you'd think regardless of turnovers, they would just get shredded every single week. that hasn't happened.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

who's to say those people aren't enjoying the hell out of this season? Just because they bring up criticisms of the QB who has been a mixed bag the last four weeks doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the team overall. The team IS bigger than Warner no matter how much Warner-philes want it to be.

again, everyone wants to completely bag on the D as the worst ever, but it's not a coincidence that the D has been able to play decent football in games where the offense turns the ball over 1 or fewer times a game. I mean, if the D was really that bad, you'd think regardless of turnovers, they would just get shredded every single week. that hasn't happened.

Truth.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Define declining! He's doing just as much with far less than he ever has in the past. Yeah, I'll go along with that. That sure is declining.

I was talking about Edge sorry.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

this team is good enough that if he protects the ball, we can win more than just one playoff game.

More truth.

Everyone take a deep breath and ask yourself this. Are you a Cardinals fan or a Warner fan?

Because if you are a Cardinals fan the line written above by Russ is the gospel.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Man I can't even compliment Warner without one of the Warner fans jumping on me.

 

[RolleRocks]

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It would be nice if all the Warner defenders would acknowledge ONCE IN AWHILE that he makes dumb plays that you expect more out of a decade long vet. And to be honest Kurt isn't the type of player who can be quantified in stats.

For all his pinball like numbers that you guys tout I could really care less. I am most interested in what he does to win the game. Thats what all great QB's are judged upon. And since he left St Louis his W-L ain't all that impressive.

The people who get down on Kurt are the ones who see him falling into his old tendencies. You are famliar with those right? You know the years he couldn't get on the field because he can't take care of the ball? Do you think we all have a vendetta or something? Maybe we are seeing what four different coaching staffs in the past saw and that for all his good - he can single handedly toss away a game with his perplexing decision making.

I mean what the hell was he thinking making that throw yesterday? There are alot of INT's in this league that happen because a coverage is disguised well or a tipped pass. And then there are those that happen because a 38 year old with no wheels decides to roll out of the pocket and throw across his body right into three defenders. Just an insanely bad decision.

Can you defend that? Really? I think this year we ALL AGREE that Warner's good has outweighted his bad. But man does he still do somethings that drive me nuts. Holding on to the ball too long and throwing into triple coverage to name a couple.

And if you look at the best teams we have faced - that's when it gets most pronounced.

But lets get to the point of this thread. The Warner defend at all costs posters are irrational. Admitedlly some of us like Matt and want to see him succeed.


But I care about the team winning first and foremost. You'll notice I am supporting Kurt and acknowledge alot of the good he brings to the table. Rollerocks (and I think he should be banned for calling Evil Ash a Leinart bootlicker - he has some balls with that crap)Mokler, IA, and some of the others don't seem to recognize the flaws of Kurt.

It's somewhere in the middle guys. Lets celebrate the division and ride this out with Warner for better or for worse and revisit all this in the offseason.

This is a total strawman argument.

Who is claiming that the INT was a great play?

Almost all have acknowledged that it was a poor decision.

I simply advised him not to force throws and expose his team to turnovers and hmself to riducule when the running game has left him in an unfavorable position.

I totally disagree with your assessments. Against the very good teams that we have played(Carolina, Wash, Dallas, NY, Miami), Warner has played mostly great ball.

Without a doubt, what becomes most pronounced against the good teams is how truly awful our running game is.

And if Kurt is driving you nuts, what are you feeling about our multitude of underperforming players like our RB's and our defense?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is a total strawman argument.

Who is claiming that the INT was a great play?

Almost all have acknowledged that it was a poor decision.

I simply advised him not to force throws and expose his team to turnovers and hmself to riducule when the running game has left him in an unfavorable position.

I totally disagree with your assessments. Against the very good teams that we have played(Carolina, Wash, Dallas, NY, Miami), Warner has played mostly great ball.

Without a doubt, what becomes most pronounced against the good teams is how truly awful our running game is.

And if Kurt is driving you nuts, what are you feeling about our multitude of underperforming players like our RB's and our defense?

He had 2 T.O.'s in the NY game although I put that loss mostly on our ST coverage and Rod Hood being out. Still he didn't put us on his back that game by any means. Same can be said against Wash and CAR. If he is really the MVP he would have won us one of those games. But that's not the point. I am okay with him playing within himself like he did those games and giving us a chance.

But you make my point for me. In the last 4 games he has had 8 T.O's Since the SF game he has been regressing. To the point where he didn't even throw up the ridiculous numbers I expected him to against a piss poor ST Louis team. If we had played anybody but a couple of 2 win teams we would be 0-4 in that stretch with those kind of turnovers.

That's what scares me. I want him to get back to that first 6 game level. And he's not doing so. And it's worrying me.

That's all I am saying. Kurt needs to play better or we are going to be one and done.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

This will be the first year in the last 8 that Warner plays a full 16 games.

He has had good numbers (they have been great actually) for 1.5 years out of the last 8 years.

He is 37 years old going on 38 years old.

He couldn't run around when he was young, and he can run even less.

Saying he is getting things done with "far less" is a joke. Maybe without a running game, but his 3 WR here are better than Bruce, Holt, and Hakim were ever.

Throw stats, and numbers out the window. When talking strictly about time....Warner is in decline. Just as Farve is. Both still are good players but father time is not on either of thier sides.

Warner is going to play for 3 more years tops, and at any moment that 37 year old arm, and body is going to fall apart. I understand that is an assumption but saying a 37 year old QB is going to start showing kinks in the armour is not that big of a reach. You can already see the season taking its toll right now. Warner is still playing well, but far from what he was doing weeks 4 through 10.

When taking money into account. You are going to have to pay for both Warner and Leinart if you want to keep Warner. You are going to have to deal with the fact keeping them both is going to hurt the defense and the run game by tying up millions in Boldin, Fitzgerald, Warner, and Leinart.

Just the facts of the situation.

Personally. I have no problems starting Warner, re-signing Warner, and doing whatever Whiz thinks is the way to go.

I started the season supporting whatever the coaches want to do, and it seems to be good luck. I don't always agree (wanted to start Leinart, and keep Edge as the starter) but I still support the coaches decisions.

And that is all I am going to say about that. Fighting in these threads are ridiculous. Sooner or later there will be a debate about whether Warner is actually 37 years old, and if he was put in a time machine to make him 27 again. LOL

I wouldn't go as far as a joke. he had a RB who could be a receiver as well as run the ball and a offensive line that would give him a bit more time to throw the ball downfield. He doesn't get that time behind this offensive line from what I've seen. So there is quite a bit of difference and KW is doing a great job with what he has. I think we're almost on the same page

 

[82CardsGrad]

did you miss where I said in Favre's first half last season he had THE WORST running attack in the league? or just ignore it because it didn't fit with your hypothesis?

Too busy to compare the first half of '07 for the Packers running game to the 2008 Cards' rushing attack. If the Pack were as aweful as the Cards are this year, then I'll stand down on this point...

yeah, by a whopping 3 yards a game. Ours is ranked 32nd, the Colts are ranked 31st. 75 v. 78 ypg.

22 TDs to 25 isn't blowing anything away and and does blow him away in yardage (and I guess turnovers since Warner has 18 to Manning's 12).

Completion %: 68.7% for Warner, 64.4 for Manning
Yards: 4,020 for Warner, 3,225 for Manning
Rating: 99.1 for Warner, 88.8 for Manning

So, on a team with a marginally better running game... a team that won the Super Bowl two years ago and has been in the playoffs 8 of the last 9 seasons, yes - Manning is getting "blown away" by Warner...

glad you agree.

Likewise...

 

[Spielman]

Saying he is getting things done with "far less" is a joke. Maybe without a running game, but his 3 WR here are better than Bruce, Holt, and Hakim were ever.

No. Sorry, gotta disagree.

While I love Fitz, Boldin and Breaston, they aren't as good as the Bruce-Holt-Hakim combo was because they aren't as explosive.

There's 26 receivers in the league this year who have more yards per catch than Fitz, who has the best of the three. Holt and Bruce blew those YPC numbers out of the water during the Greatest Show era, and Hakim was up there as well, except in 2001 when he started to slide.