Advice for Kurt Warner

[Cheesebeef]

"Slump"?? He had a bad game in Philly. Before that, he went 32 of 52, for 351 yards with a TD and an INT against the Giants.

and a fumble lost.

Before that he went 32 of 44, for 395 yards with a TD and an INT against the Hawks.

and a fumble lost.

And before that he went nuts against the 9ers, going 32 of 42, for 328 yards, 3 TD's and no INT's. Yesterday, he went 24 of 33, for 280 yards with a TD and an INT...

Where's the slump??

why do you not mention the fumbles in the above?

In the last four games he's 6 TDS:8 Turnovers. and his rating which had been at 100 has averaged 84 for those games. That's why it's a slump, at least since the Niners game.

 

[Mitch]

This has nothing to do with being a Warner fan...it has everything to do with recognizing excellence and understanding in a that perfection is virtually impossible...and the expectation of perfection is absurd.

Who was the last Cardinal even mentioned in MVP conversations?

It's simply unreal that so many of you are so negative and do not allow this aggressive QB---the likes of which we haven't seen in Arizona since Neil Lomax--some understandable margin for error.

 

[Evil Ash]

Do you think maybe those two things go together?

That there are other aspects to why we've been playing bad lately? Sure

However the last few weeks with some Warner fans, you must have lips firmly implanted on his ass and can NOT make any criticism of him whatsoever. Recently when the run game struggles were brought up as a point of discussion.

I mentioned that Warner is slow to hand the ball off is a factor (not the Main factor but one of many factors as to why it is struggling) in the struggles. Warner fans made it appear that I was simply picking on Warner, he can do now wrong, etc.

Its tiring.

We should be celebrating our first division title in 33 years. Instead we have to have another discussion about how Warner is untouchable and anyone that says something bad about him is automatically picking on him. Its just dumb

 

[Evil Ash]

"Slump"?? He had a bad game in Philly. Before that, he went 32 of 52, for 351 yards with a TD and an INT against the Giants. Before that he went 32 of 44, for 395 yards with a TD and an INT against the Hawks. And before that he went nuts against the 9ers, going 32 of 42, for 328 yards, 3 TD's and no INT's. Yesterday, he went 24 of 33, for 280 yards with a TD and an INT...

Where's the slump??

8 turnovers in 4 games is a slump. You can't turn the ball over and expect to win in the playoffs.

 

[82CardsGrad]

and a fumble lost.



and a fumble lost.



why do you not mention the fumbles in the above?

In the last four games he's 6 TDS:8 Turnovers. and his rating which had been at 100 has averaged 84 for those games. That's why it's a slump, at least since the Niners game.

Ya see... I see this as a QB who has been asked to drop back and pass more than any other QB in the league. A guy who has been pounded on all year, and at 37 years old, has gotten himself in the best shape of his career and somehow remain healthy enough to take every snap this season. There are certain laws of inevitability in sports, one of which is if you completely become one-dimensional as a team, and entirely rely on the arm of your QB, eventually the numbers will catch up with you. Frankly, the fact that Kurt has only turned it over 8 times in the last 4 games is shocking to me given the circumstances he's been asked to endure all season.
Again - I am not the type of Warner fan who can't see him objectively. As I've said, I don't see him as HoF worthy at this stage. However, what I have witnessed this season from him is a year that I believe comes in at the very top (or at least top 5) of any year any QB has ever had in the NFL...
All that said - this team is begging for trouble should we continue to not run the ball effectively. This is precisely why I had previoulsy raised the point about the Texans building toward a more sustainable success than the Cards. The carnival that the Cards created this season is not sustainable, I don't care who the QB is...
And for the record, two of the previous 4 games Kurt had ratings above 95... His rating against the Giants was 80, and his rating against the Eagles was 65.7 which totally dragged him down...

 

[Russ Smith]

You've completely missed the point my friend. The pressure I was referring to was the pressure coming from defenses. I would dare say Kurt has taken far more hits. He has thrown w/ defenses converging on him at the last second far more than his competitors. Defenses probably respect the Packers run & the possibility that they will run far more than what Warner has to deal with. Part of the reason Kurt has the ball stripped is b/c he waits till the last second. He has made FAR many more plays than he has given up by doing so. That's part of what makes him so unique.

We would have gone 3 & out, & lost many more games w/o that mindset & his abilities. It's not like Kurt has a lot of time back there as it is. As far as throwing right to the defense is concerned, did you ever see the qb's afore mentioned do likewise? I did. And far more than once! It happens, even to the great ones. Montana did it 3 times as much as Warner in that championship game which was a far bigger game overall. As I said before, it's not like Kurt is doing that 5-10 times a game & losing us games solely b/c of that. He makes far many more great plays than he does bad ones. That's a big reason why we've won the division. Period.

Lastly, & it bears mentioning, has anyone other than me wondered how Kurt's arm hasn't fallen off yet? Throwing that many times per game at that level, at 37!? Qb is an extremely cerebral position. To have that kind of focus that many times a game, & still be able to overcome the exhaustion & pain he must feel during the game is unreal to me. And he's done it for 13 games w/ several left to go. He's a freak of nature!

Sorry you meant pass pressure not pressure to perform. Rodgers has been sacked more than Warner has, in about 60 less attempts. In recent weeks I think kurt has been hit a lot, but that's because we throw so much and you have to admit SOME of that is on Kurt. He's the one that audibles to pass so often, and he's the one that holds the ball trying to push it downfield, which leads to him getting hit a lot.

Considering Rodgers has been playing with a bad shoulder for weeks I think he's doing a bang up job as a first year starter.

Kurt has been very impressive this year I just am saying the tendency to just gift wrap the ball to the defense seems to have popped up again in recent weeks, it's a trend I hope stops before the playoffs because this team has a chance to make a run in the playoffs IMHO.

 

[82CardsGrad]

8 turnovers in 4 games is a slump. You can't turn the ball over and expect to win in the playoffs.

3 INT's in one game against the Eagles... sucks for sure. But one game is creating the impression of a "slump" with some of you...

 

[Spielman]

Man, is this thing ever running in circles now.

 

[Evil Ash]

This has nothing to do with being a Warner fan...it has everything to do with recognizing excellence and understanding in a that perfection is virtually impossible...and the expectation of perfection is absurd.

Who was the last Cardinal even mentioned in MVP conversations?

It's simply unreal that so many of you are so negative and do not allow this aggressive QB---the likes of which we haven't seen in Arizona since Neil Lomax--some understandable margin for error.

We aren't expecting perfection, we're expecting him to play better. When he was playing well in the early part of the season, we still didn't have a running game. So what the hell changed? He looks timid now.

There is also a difference between aggression and stupidity. Lately his turnovers fit into the latter. When something isn't there throw the damn ball away. Don't run into the pressure while holding onto the ball for too long or throw it into triple coverage across your body.

Turnovers are a HUGE factor in winning. We need to win the turnover battle. In order to do that we need Warner to take care of the damn ball.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This has nothing to do with being a Warner fan...it has everything to do with recognizing excellence and understanding in a that perfection is virtually impossible...and the expectation of perfection is absurd.

Who was the last Cardinal even mentioned in MVP conversations?

It's simply unreal that so many of you are so negative and do not allow this aggressive QB---the likes of which we haven't seen in Arizona since Neil Lomax--some understandable margin for error.

can you stop calling people absurd, unreal? or twisting their words and projecting "the expectation of perfection?

why do the Warner fans have to get so personal? Good god.

 

[Evil Ash]

Man, is this thing ever running in circles now.

It always does.

 

[Russ Smith]

Interesting numbers, CardLogic, thanks, man. Interesting too that all 4 of these QBs should be heading to Honolulu this year, without question.

the problem is the numbers are wrong because CL used total fumbles not fumbles lost. I do agree that fumbles are largely luck if you recover them or not but a turnover means you give the ball to the other team, so a fumble that is not lost, is NOT a turnover.

What it really shows is just how bad JT O'Sullivan was for SF, he hasn't played in weeks and he's still only 1 TO behind Warner.

 

[Rats]

IT is madness. I think that those that are just blind homers for Warner and those that are just blind homers against Warner and for Leinart should just shut up already. I like what Warner has done for this offense despite his turnovers (there are so many variables with TO and every QB makes them) and he has had a great Individual year as well. Matt should be a good Qb in a year or two. I would like Kurt one more year as starter and a year as the backup if Matt can deliver and beat him out. Statistics have to many variables in them for anyone to craft there argument soley based on them. They do not tell you on that fumble the Right tackle ole'ed and the Qb never saw it coming. Something we have seen all year. Stats don't show when the center sends the snap 2 feet to the left making the Qb have to lunge or if the Rb missed his pick up of the blitzing saftey and the Qb who is always going thru the progressions has to throw the ball in to double coverage because he only had time to get it to his first option. I always said I liked Warner but preferred the younger Qb in both Josh and Matt for there upside potential. Felt they would be around a lot longer if they "Got it". Josh didn't and who knows if Matt will. Warner is a proven commodity when it comes to a passing game designed for him and an offensive line that gives him time. They have and we have a MVP candidate out of it. Develop even a marginal running game and stop the run( big challenge this week against Peterson) and this team could win playoff games. Forceing turnovers and not turning the ball over help also:}

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Huh? Are you saying that because Kurt is always in Shotgun and "3 yards deeper" than Favre and Ben, that it's harder for him to recover his own fumble??
Not sure if that makes sense?? And can you really determine the recoverability of a fumble?? Seems to me that there are a zillion dynamics in play that can influence the recovery of a fumble... The more accurate, and pure figure is to simply look at how many times someone has coughed up the ball... What happens once the ball is coughed up is purely random.

Sorry I should have been clearer. Bad exchanges from center to QB are always charged to the QB. Same with QB and RB exchanges. It is easier for o-linemen to fall upon a ball at their feet and recover the fumble than it is for that all to happen 3 yards back.

 

[Spielman]

It always does.

I'm to the point that I hope the guy wins the MVP, wins the Super Bowl, and retires in a blaze of glory, just so the threads will die.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sorry I should have been clearer. Bad exchanges from center to QB are always charged to the QB. Same with QB and RB exchanges. It is easier for o-linemen to fall upon a ball at their feet and recover the fumble than it is for that all to happen 3 yards back.

Exactly, for example Bill Walsh for ages wouldn't use the shotgun because he thought it was just way too dangerous. The snap is risky and as Chris said if you DO fumble it, there are less offensive players in position to possibly get the ball because the ball is behind them usually where they're not looking.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

That there are other aspects to why we've been playing bad lately? Sure

However the last few weeks with some Warner fans, you must have lips firmly implanted on his ass and can NOT make any criticism of him whatsoever. Recently when the run game struggles were brought up as a point of discussion.

I mentioned that Warner is slow to hand the ball off is a factor (not the Main factor but one of many factors as to why it is struggling) in the struggles. Warner fans made it appear that I was simply picking on Warner, he can do now wrong, etc.

Its tiring.

We should be celebrating our first division title in 33 years. Instead we have to have another discussion about how Warner is untouchable and anyone that says something bad about him is automatically picking on him. Its just dumb

Honestly the two things that agitate me the most are the opinions on here of we don't want Warner back next year or the we can't afford to have him as starter next year and improve. Things would be extrememly difficult to bring him back and improve the team, but I don't think it's impossible. Changes need to be made and maybe taking cuts for the team may need to be taken, but it is possible.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Sorry I should have been clearer. Bad exchanges from center to QB are always charged to the QB. Same with QB and RB exchanges. It is easier for o-linemen to fall upon a ball at their feet and recover the fumble than it is for that all to happen 3 yards back.

I think the whole issue of debating the "recoverability" of a fumble is entirely pointless... However, if I am understanding you correctly, it seems that you are suggesting that fumbles would be more easily recovered if the QB was taking the snap under center versus the Shotgun?? Which, if this is what you are saying, and since Warner is almost primarily in the Shotgun, would then support why he might have more lost fumbles than other QB's...
If this is what you are saying, doesn't this detract from your point about Warner "leading the league" in turnovers??

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think the whole issue of debating the "recoverability" of a fumble is entirely pointless... However, if I am understanding you correctly, it seems that you are suggesting that fumbles would be more easily recovered if the QB was taking the snap under center versus the Shotgun?? Which, if this is what you are saying, and since Warner is almost primarily in the Shotgun, would then support why he might have more lost fumbles than other QB's...
If this is what you are saying, doesn't this detract from your point about Warner "leading the league" in turnovers??

I already conceded that if you noticed

Harder to recover your fumbles when you are 3 yards further back than the other QBs. That's a scheme issue as much as a Warner issue.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I already conceded that if you noticed

Whoa... missed that! Not often I see someone take such a strident position and then, in the same thread detract from his position!
You're a strange one Sanders...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Whoa... missed that! Not often I see someone take such a strident position and then, in the same thread detract from his position!
You're a strange one Sanders...

Some times the facts don't back up my ********. Simple as that

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Before anyone jumps me on it. Yes, I know a player taking a cut is extremely rare. Many would rather get the money than play on a winning team.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Some times the facts don't back up my ********. Simple as that

And most times my ******** is not supported by facts...

 

[slanidrac16]

Kurt, if you read these threads, I'm sorry, there isn't any advice I can give you.
Division champs. Highest scoring offense in the league. Top 5 in just about every qb statistical category. A chance to perhaps break Marinos total yards in a single season. Most attempts by a Cardinal QB ever to go along with most completions by a Cardinal QB ever.
You are averaging about 1 int for every 50 passes and you have thrown for twice as many td's as you have picks not to mention your 99.1 qb rating.

Yep, Sorry Kurt. Not to much I can help you with.

For the record. I was in the Leinart camp when training camp started. Glad they didn't ask for my expertise.

 

[Cards_Campos]

IT is madness. I think that those that are just blind homers for Warner and those that are just blind homers against Warner and for Leinart should just shut up already. I like what Warner has done for this offense despite his turnovers (there are so many variables with TO and every QB makes them) and he has had a great Individual year as well. Matt should be a good Qb in a year or two. I would like Kurt one more year as starter and a year as the backup if Matt can deliver and beat him out. Statistics have to many variables in them for anyone to craft there argument soley based on them. They do not tell you on that fumble the Right tackle ole'ed and the Qb never saw it coming. Something we have seen all year. Stats don't show when the center sends the snap 2 feet to the left making the Qb have to lunge or if the Rb missed his pick up of the blitzing saftey and the Qb who is always going thru the progressions has to throw the ball in to double coverage because he only had time to get it to his first option. I always said I liked Warner but preferred the younger Qb in both Josh and Matt for there upside potential. Felt they would be around a lot longer if they "Got it". Josh didn't and who knows if Matt will. Warner is a proven commodity when it comes to a passing game designed for him and an offensive line that gives him time. They have and we have a MVP candidate out of it. Develop even a marginal running game and stop the run( big challenge this week against Peterson) and this team could win playoff games. Forceing turnovers and not turning the ball over help also:}

This is one of the best posts I have read IN a LONG TIME. He is spot on and honest. I wish more people would understand and think this way. I never have said Lienart was a bad QB....It is why throw away a winning horse because you MAY have a faster one in the stables. Warner has proven time and time again he wins. Everyone has said his int was horrible. Please rewatch it. He under threw it which of course is bad...but another 3 yds up in the air...and he has an 80 yd TD.....NFL Network had a back view of the play....and there was no defender over the top...he gets some air under it and it would have been a TD. But he didn't....Ill take 34-10 blow outs with 1 int any day of the week though. Oh and by the way. Teams play bad from time to time...ie Philly and look at the Jets. Good teams hit hurdles..it is how you respond that determines how good you are. Lets see what we do this week.