Agree or Disagree?

[CardLogic]

PLAY YOUR 'CARDS' RIGHT
by Pat Kirwan - NFL.com

The Arizona Cardinals have a 2-4 record and once again look like a team headed nowhere! With a few more good players, this franchise under the direction of Dennis Green would be right in the thick of it in the NFC.

As I look around the NFL, I realize the Cardinals don't need to secure better talent -- they needed to hang on to the talent they had over the past few years.


So far this season, Thomas Jones is outrushing the entire Arizona team 641-427.
The people who run the Cardinals organization and the loyal fans they have must shake their heads every time an ex-Cardinal does something good somewhere else in this league.

I would be willing to predict that if the Cards still had the four players mentioned below, the team would be in the playoff hunt right now under Green.

Jake Plummer (QB), Thomas Jones (RB), Simeon Rice and Kyle Vanden Bosch (DEs) would make such a huge difference. I believe the team would have a flipped record of 4-2.

Plummer has thrown eight touchdowns passes against three interceptions. The Cardinals quarterbacks have only six TD passes and eight interceptions.

Thomas Jones has 688 yards of offense and six touchdowns. His replacement, Marcel Shipp, has 329 yards and zero touchdowns.

Rice and Vanden Bosch have 12½ sacks combined; the top two Cardinals have eight sacks between them this season.

If the Cardinals had two more touchdown passes and five fewer interceptions, 359 more yards from their best back, and 4½ more sacks, Sun Devil Stadium would be a lot noisier on Sundays and the team would be talking playoffs.

What I don't agree with is the four players above making the difference. Thomas Jones would have about the same yardage as Arrington; Plummer while he is finally controlling the bone-headed plays that he is known for, would still be trying too hard with the Cardinals; KVB, glad he is having a good year, but he is not any better than BB or Oak; and Rice well he is averaging one sack and two tackles per game and still doesn't play the run.

I somewhat agree with the last sentence of the above article. Two more touchdowns would have have given the Cardinals wins against the Rams and the Panthers; two games that could have, should have been won. (4-2 would be looking a whole lot than 2-4.) Don't know if that would make SDS any louder though, because the hardcore fans already showing up at Cardinals game are a surprisingly raucous crowd.

And while the team may not be talking playoffs, I certainly hope that they are still thinking about making them. A win in Dallas and a home victory against the Seahawks next week and they will be right back in the hunt, one game behind Seattle.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Simeon Rice and KVB are no better than Berry and Okeafor.


Thomas Jones would do nothing behind this line!

 

[Scott MS]

I think we had KVB last season, under Green, and there was no magic there.

This guy is a bonehead.

 

[vince56]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=63194

 

[BigRedMO]

You cant fill a bucket if there is a hole in it. I believe the Cards problems are two fold. First - The Cards dont generate enough revenue to field a complete team with NFL calibre coaches and Bidwill does not have the wealth to supplement for the lack of revenue. Second and this is related to the first. The Cards have failed for years at talent identification, development and retention. The Broncos through good solid coaching have DEVELOPED Plummer into an asset at QB. The Cardinals could not do that. Plummer is one of countless examples of players who were resurrected elsewhere. Untill these two problems are fixed this franchise is going no where.

 

[JasonKGME]

If they want to talk about a difference because players are out why not talk about the missing of Gerald Hayes, Russell Davis, Antrell Rolle and the slew of part time starters missing, including Kurt Warner, David Macklin, Alex Stepanovich, and others who have at least missed 1 game each in their starting positions.

Don't talk to me about players that have been let go and are on another team as evidence of a mistake, take the whole defensive line of Cleveland who went to Denver, in Cleveland they sucked and had to be let go, in Denver they appear to be playing much better, could be scheme, could be motivation, could be just simple improvement, whatever the reason the team that let them go let them go for a valid reason, the team who picked them up just happened to get lucky that NOW they are performing.

 

[Russ Smith]

Don't talk to me about players that have been let go and are on another team as evidence of a mistake, take the whole defensive line of Cleveland who went to Denver, in Cleveland they sucked and had to be let go, in Denver they appear to be playing much better, could be scheme, could be motivation, could be just simple improvement, whatever the reason the team that let them go let them go for a valid reason, the team who picked them up just happened to get lucky that NOW they are performing.

What they said during last week's Bronco game was that last year Cleveland had no depth so the DL played most downs, guys like Warren simply can't play hard that many downs so they took plays off, and guys like Brown wore down and would inevitably get hurt. Denver's system is to rotate the DL's a lot, so none of them are playing as many plays, in general about 20 less each per game, so they can play all out and that's why they look so much better.

For all the crap they took on that move, it looks like genius so far.

 

[kerouac9]

What they said during last week's Bronco game was that last year Cleveland had no depth so the DL played most downs, guys like Warren simply can't play hard that many downs so they took plays off, and guys like Brown wore down and would inevitably get hurt. Denver's system is to rotate the DL's a lot, so none of them are playing as many plays, in general about 20 less each per game, so they can play all out and that's why they look so much better.

For all the crap they took on that move, it looks like genius so far.

Meh. The Broncs D-line has all of eight sacks this season.

Personally, I think that Denny Green would give his left arm for Thomas Jones right now. The Bears' O-line is banged up right now and even at full health, they're not that talented. Kyle Orton is no better than Warner or McCown, though he's definitely savvier. The Cards have a better WR corps.

Thomas Jones possibly would be leading the NFL in rushing right now if he were still a Card.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

This is one pathetic article.

Not one of these guys would be helping us right now.

I don't see McCown doing anything better than Plummer when he was here. Actually there has been a decrease in fumbles, and interceptions lost for a touchdown.

Good for Jake and the run he is having with the Broncos this year. But behind this line he would do no better than McCown is doing.

As for Thomas Jones......fah!

 

[red desert]

I think we had KVB last season, under Green, and there was no magic there.

This guy is a bonehead.

That is just not true. Had KVB not been injured, he'd have succeeded, even with the Cards.

 

[Sandan]

Disagree

 

[Redsz]

That is just not true. Had KVB not been injured, he'd have succeeded, even with the Cards.

That's true, if Eric Swann hadn't had multiple injurys he would of suceeded 'even' with the Cardinals...

And if Neil Lomax hadn't blown out his hip he would of suceeded with the Cardinals...

 

[john h]

Simeon Rice and KVB are no better than Berry and Okeafor.


Thomas Jones would do nothing behind this line!

Rice has been an all pro and led the league in sacks. Thomas Jones has proven he can run the ball with a so so so team and score TD's. He as already scored more running TD's than we will probably score all year. JJ has proven nothing in the NFL. Berry and Okeafor are playing well but I doubt they will be all pro or lead the league in sacks. Plummer is a better QB than we have now. It seems clear with those four guys we would be a better team with a better record. It does not mean we would be a playoff contender. At a couple of those OL we got rid of to this crew along with the ones you mention and we might contned for a playoff spot. I do not like to say it as I was no Plummer fan but it seems clear to me.

 

[vince56]

Rice has been an all pro and led the league in sacks.

And what did Berry do last year?

 

[Redsz]

John, Berry was an all-pro last year. Remember, 14.5 sacks and went to the Pro Bowl? If I had to choose between Berry and Rice, I would take Berry every single time and I don't even need to explain why. It's obvious.

This guy is a freakin idiot. A guy who comes in after the fact with hindsight and says 'you should of kept X'. Well thanks for that. I'm sure if 31 other NFL teams had the chance they would selected Anquan Boldin and Karlos Dansby when they had the chance. But life doesn't work that way.

What a useless piece.

 

[john h]

John, Berry was an all-pro last year. Remember, 14.5 sacks and went to the Pro Bowl? If I had to choose between Berry and Rice, I would take Berry every single time and I don't even need to explain why. It's obvious.

This guy is a freakin idiot. A guy who comes in after the fact with hindsight and says 'you should of kept X'. Well thanks for that. I'm sure if 31 other NFL teams had the chance they would selected Anquan Boldin and Karlos Dansby when they had the chance. But life doesn't work that way.

What a useless piece.

There are a lot of pro bowl caliber idiots in the NFL. It does not take a Harvard MBA to be a hard hitter or run a 4.3 40. Moss is trouble where ever he is but he best receiver the NFL has seen in years. TO is a jackass but would I love to have him. Some lineman cannot even spell. It is difficult to put together a team that is nothing but nice guys. Let us be realistic and recognize we have let some darn good players go. We should learn from our mistakes. Jones leaving was a clear mistake I said it then and I repeat it now. He was injured. Buddy sent a very good Garrison Hearst packing because he was injured. Let us not pretend just because they left they were somehow flawed. I could go way back in time and name some more like Bobby Moore or an All Pro lineman who went on to a big carreer in Washington. All teams make mistakes like these but the Cards make more than others which is one of the reasons we are where we are.

 

[Duckjake]

Jones leaving was a clear mistake I said it then and I repeat it now. He was injured.

Swd, would you please explain to these guys why Thomas Jones was the wrong pick for the Cardinals and why he didn't suceed in Arizona.

As for the article I wonder why he didn't talk about the Cards getting rid of David Boston and Frank Sanders. Oh that's right we replaced them with Fitzgerald and Boldin and neither Boston nor Sanders has done anything since.

Frank was one of my favorite players when he was with Arizona by the way.

 

[Cardsmasochist]

Does anyone REALLY want Jake Plummer back? Does anyone think that Jake will take the Broncos to the promise land?

Yes, the Broncos are doing well. But sometime this season, probably in the playoffs, when they are down and the game is on the line, Jake will go back to his old habits and try to create something out of nothing. How many times did he throw into triple coverage while there was another receiver wide-open on the other side of the field? It's like he makes up his mind who he's going to throw it to before he snaps the ball.

 

[Assface]

Most of these players listed are ones that didn't care while they were here. Jake even admitted that he never really studied game film untill he got to Denver. We tried EVERYTHING with him while he was here. Jones simply didn't run that hard while he was here. Let's not forget that he didn't go from Arizona to Chicago and instant success....we traded him to Tampa and they were only willing to part with a bust WR to get him. They chose not to keep him also. He's having a breakout year with his THIRD NFL team. I would have liked to have kept KVB but he wanted to go somewhere that he could start. Rice wanted out, there's no way you can blame that on the Cardinals.

 

[buff17]

You actually have one part wrong Assface. Gruden wanted Thomas Jones to resign, but Jones wanted to go elsewhere. He loved the city of Chicago, and the Bears tradition. They offered him basicly the same contract as Tampa Bay did. He didnt like the offense that the Bucs ran. They would throw 60 percent of the time. Thomas Jones wants to get the rock 20-25 times a game.


BTW, I think even behind this line TJ would average at least 4.0 ypc given 20 carries a game. What he did on Chicagos team last year is amazing. Even though he didnt put up a 1000 yard season he was pretty close and he missed 3 games. Though he did add another 400 and some odd yards recieving. 1300 plus yards isnt bad at all in 13 games, plus the fact that Chicago had absolutly no threat of a passing game and their offensive line was just average. So in turn if he could average 4.0 ypc on last years Bears team. He could certainly do it here.

 

[Assface]

You actually have one part wrong Assface. Gruden wanted Thomas Jones to resign, but Jones wanted to go elsewhere. He loved the city of Chicago, and the Bears tradition. They offered him basicly the same contract as Tampa Bay did. He didnt like the offense that the Bucs ran. They would throw 60 percent of the time. Thomas Jones wants to get the rock 20-25 times a game.


BTW, I think even behind this line TJ would average at least 4.0 ypc given 20 carries a game. What he did on Chicagos team last year is amazing. Even though he didnt put up a 1000 yard season he was pretty close and he missed 3 games. Though he did add another 400 and some odd yards recieving. 1300 plus yards isnt bad at all in 13 games, plus the fact that Chicago had absolutly no threat of a passing game and their offensive line was just average.

I was glad when we ditched TJ because he accomplished nothing here while being given every opportunity and having the starting job handed to him every year that he was here. From what I've seen of him this year Jones is simply a better runner than he was a few years ago, I don't think it has anything to do with the offense he's in or the players around him. He's actually breaking tackles now. Maybe something just clicked for him, maybe being given up on and traded woke him up, maybe the "lifting and losing" made him stronger. I'd agree that the player that he is RIGHT NOW would be an improvement but I still don't think the Cardinals were wrong at the time to get rid of him.

 

[Scott MS]

That is just not true. Had KVB not been injured, he'd have succeeded, even with the Cards.

He wasn't hurt all of last season. In fact KVB played in just about every game and he was on the depth chart behind Berry, Zellner, and Pace.

I'm talking about '04. Cards decided they had better options at DE and didn't re-sign him.

KVB is a good story this season, but he doesn't fit into the list of players the author states because he played under Green and with the current regime of players and he wasn't as good as them when he played here just last season.


.

 

[Scott MS]

2004: Kyle Vanden Bosch
16 games, 11 tackles, 0 sacks.

Head coach was Dennis Green
Defensive Coordinator was Pendergast
Starters were Berry and Zellner

How could you have expected Kyle to suddenly turn it around in 2005 when basically nothing changed in the situation in Arizona? How did he amazingly get better? It's a great story.

Cards' move to not re-sign him was a good one, given Okeafor was signed.

Now the rest of the players listed (Rice, Jones, and Plummer) should have been re-signed by the Cards, but they all had something in common: they really didn't want to play in Arizona anymore and weren't going to sign.

 

[jstadvl]

Our DE's

are fine. But anyone who thinks KVB would not havve been a big help to us this year is wrong. He played two years in between two injuries. The Cards made the right move for the organization.
I'm not sure who Ian is diagreeing with, but I also believe Kyle would have produced here. Except for playing time. We're half way through the season and he's shown no signs of slowing down yet. What's he got 8 sacks now? 7?
And don't give me the coverage rap CT. Their DB's aint all that. the guy is healthy.
I'm happy with who we have. Okeafor is starting to come around now. Berry is a monster. Docket is a beast. Kojo is playing well. Our LB corps is playing out of their minds.
We are missiing some guys that would have made a hugfe difference had they not been placed on IR.
I still say we go 8-8 at least and make a playoff push.
If McCown gets over the jitters, he'll score for us.
Our O line needs to decide what they want to be-either the best pass protecting line in the league or a smash mouth run line.
I really don't want anyone back. They've moved on, to a degree of success. Good for them. however, we've moved on to a degree of success and it's only going to get better.

 

[jstadvl]

Where'd you get

some linemen can't spell? That group is one of the largest groups of football players to finish getting their degrees. Many of them at a Masters level. Of course spell check helps bunches, but i think that's an exagerration.