All Suns Team

[sunsfan88]

Yes I would, KJ would eat Steve Nash with ease. think a better Tony Parker and we all seen how helpless Nash was against San Antonio. Nash was a real nice player but my god was he one sided.

I really, really hope that you are not saying that Tony Parker has been a better PG in his career than Nash.

 

[Phrazbit]

KJ at his prime was more like a better Chris Paul.

 

[BC867]

I really, really hope that you are not saying that Tony Parker has been a better PG in his career than Nash.

He said "one sided". MVSteve's greatness was offense, not defense -- the other half of the game.

 

[Errntknght]

Its not relevant that KJ would eat Nash with ease. They're point guards and whats important is how they run teams. I'm sure there are teams for which KJ is a better PG than Nash, but more teams would be better with Steve playing point than with Kevin.

 

[BC867]

Its not relevant that KJ would eat Nash with ease. They're point guards and whats important is how they run teams. I'm sure there are teams for which KJ is a better PG than Nash, but more teams would be better with Steve playing point than with Kevin.

Kevin hogging the ball, driving the lane and getting blocked with the game on the line became routine.

Remember how the Chuckster called him "Franchise, Jr." If that weren't an issue with KJ, I don't see that calling him "Franchise" in any way would have come up. It is the Point Guard's job to make the other players better.

In that regard, Steve has it all over KJ.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Well the doldrums of summer are here and there isn't much going on in the world of basketball these days. So I decided to come up with my All Suns team. Who would be on yours?

PG- Kevin Johnson - Steve Nash
SG- Walter Davis- Jeff Hornacek
SF- Shawn Marion - Dan Majerle
PF- Charles Barkley- Tom Chambers
C- Amare Stoudemire - Alvin Adams

There's no way you can leave Westphal off of this, especially replacing him with Horneck. I would try this, especially since Davis played so much SF

PG Kevin Johnson Steve Nash
SG Paul Westphal Dan Majerle
SF Walter Davis Connie Hawkins
PF Charles Barkley Truck Robinson/Tom Chambers
C Alvin Adams Amare Stoudemire

Westphal was one of the all time greats for the Suns, not sure why he is not being mentioned very much on this thread.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There's no way you can leave Westphal off of this, especially replacing him with Horneck. I would try this, especially since Davis played so much SF

PG Kevin Johnson Steve Nash
SG Paul Westphal Dan Majerle
SF Walter Davis Connie Hawkins
PF Charles Barkley Truck Robinson/Tom Chambers
C Alvin Adams Amare Stoudemire

Westphal was one of the all time greats for the Suns, not sure why he is not being mentioned very much on this thread.

I'm an Alvan Adams fan but I don't know how you can leave Neal Walk off that list. He was a legit center on both ends of the court and his best season for us he averaged 20 points, 12.4 rebounds and 3.5 assists for us. If we're taking players based on them at their best (as Suns) he has to be the starting center IMO. Just like Westy has to start at the off guard spot. DJ, for example, may have been a better guard, but Westy was better than him when they each wore their Phoenix uniform.

Steve

 

[Folster]

PG: Sam Cassell
SG: Mario Ellie
SF: Robert Horry
PF: Jerrod Mustaf
C: Luc Longley

 

[elindholm]

I was a great fan of Kevin Johnson, but he's getting overrated in this thread. I think Suns fans are partial to him because he played almost his entire career in Phoenix and led the franchise out of one of its darkest periods. But putting him ahead of Nash really doesn't make sense. Nash was a better shooter and a better leader, and he dominated the (offensive) game in a way that Johnson didn't.

Johnson had a couple of things he was terrific at -- the little pull-up jumper from 15-18 feet, and beating almost anyone off the dribble -- but his range was limited and he had difficulty finishing in traffic. I remember too many times how the Suns would need a basket late in the game, they'd set up a play for Johnson to get to the rim, and then he'd get there and miss, while everyone cried for a foul. Was he fouled? Sure, probably, but part of being a great player is either getting calls in your favor or somehow getting the job done anyway.

Also, if you're going to evaluate someone's contributions to the franchise, you have to take health into account. Johnson played at least 70 games in a season only once after turning 25, and his career ended after just 735 games.

Here's a hypothetical: If you swap Johnson's and Nash's eras, so that Nash plays with Barkley, Chambers, Majerle, etc. and Johnson plays with Stoudemire, Marion, etc., what happens to each team? I think the Barkley team improves with Nash instead of Johnson, whereas the Stoudemire team looks about the same to me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

PG: Sam Cassell
SG: Mario Ellie
SF: Robert Horry
PF: Jerrod Mustaf
C: Luc Longley

Can we add Beasley, Warrick and High to your team - you're gonna need some depth?

Steve

 

[Absolute Zero]

I'm an Alvan Adams fan but I don't know how you can leave Neal Walk off that list. He was a legit center on both ends of the court and his best season for us he averaged 20 points, 12.4 rebounds and 3.5 assists for us. If we're taking players based on them at their best (as Suns) he has to be the starting center IMO. Just like Westy has to start at the off guard spot. DJ, for example, may have been a better guard, but Westy was better than him when they each wore their Phoenix uniform.

Steve

You may bey right. Neal Walk was before my time so I don't know much about him. Connie Hawkins on the other hand, when I was a kid I went to "Connie Hawkins night" at the Madhouse on McDowell. So he was on my radar screen for sure.

 

[JS22]

Kevin hogging the ball, driving the lane and getting blocked with the game on the line became routine.

Remember how the Chuckster called him "Franchise, Jr." If that weren't an issue with KJ, I don't see that calling him "Franchise" in any way would have come up. It is the Point Guard's job to make the other players better.

In that regard, Steve has it all over KJ.

Nash didn't even average as many assists as KJ did in his prime. KJ had no problem sharing the ball.

His problem? Staying healthy. A healthy KJ is one of the best PG's of all-time.

 

[BC867]

Nash didn't even average as many assists as KJ did in his prime. KJ had no problem sharing the ball.

His problem? Staying healthy. A healthy KJ is one of the best PG's of all-time.

Without checking figures, I think you'll find that Point Guards averaged more assists during KJ's time than Steve's. Basketball evolved.

I didn't say that KJ had a problem sharing the ball. I said he hogged it with the game on the line. It became so predictable and so counter-productive, but he didn't adapt.

Lastly, a player's stamina and health is part of his performance. It got to Steve as well, rendering him spent during the stretch run and post-season during his last three years with the Suns. It is all part of the evaluation.

 

[elindholm]

Nash didn't even average as many assists as KJ did in his prime.

That's barely true. Johnson's best season for assists average was 12.2, and it's true that Nash never got that high. But Johnson was over 10 only three other times (11.4, 10.7, 10.1), whereas Nash was over 11 five times and over 10 two others.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Without checking figures, I think you'll find that Point Guards averaged more assists during KJ's time than Steve's. Basketball evolved.

I didn't say that KJ had a problem sharing the ball. I said he hogged it with the game on the line. It became so predictable and so counter-productive, but he didn't adapt.

Lastly, a player's stamina and health is part of his performance. It got to Steve as well, rendering him spent during the stretch run and post-season during his last three years with the Suns. It is all part of the evaluation.

I don't see it that way. IMO, by reputation, we were a soft team with KJ and we were a soft team with Nash. When the refs put their whistles away, our guards were beat up and put down. It's not like we had great success in the closing moments with Nash either.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Without checking figures, I think you'll find that Point Guards averaged more assists during KJ's time than Steve's. Basketball evolved.

I didn't say that KJ had a problem sharing the ball. I said he hogged it with the game on the line. It became so predictable and so counter-productive, but he didn't adapt.

Lastly, a player's stamina and health is part of his performance. It got to Steve as well, rendering him spent during the stretch run and post-season during his last three years with the Suns. It is all part of the evaluation.

Saying his stats were a product of the time is absurd. When Johnson was at his best the only guys beating his assist numbers were Magic and Stockton, the two greatest point guards (well... Magic was a center or something according to Slin) of all time.

And we didnt have the same predictable struggles in the clutch with Nash? How many times did we see Nash dribble into the lane and get mugged in the clutch for a TO with no call? Or dribble around endlessly as the clock near expiring as no one could get open?

 

[elindholm]

And we didnt have the same predictable struggles in the clutch with Nash? How many times did we see Nash dribble into the lane and get mugged in the clutch for a TO with no call? Or dribble around endlessly as the clock near expiring as no one could get open?

The difference is that Nash often clawed the Suns back into games with timely three-point shooting. True, the Suns often failed in the closing seconds, but they got a lot more opportunities than they would have without Nash's heroics.

 

[Dr. Jones]

PG - Penny Hardaway
SG - Michael Beasley
SF - Richard Dumas
PF - Machej Lampe
C - Jake Tsakalidis

1st Frontcourt player off the bench: Zarko Chabarkapa
1st Backcourt player off the bench: Casey Jacobsen

 

[Superbone]

I remember Nash hitting more game winners than KJ but KJ was further back so perhaps it wasn't the case.

 

[Phrazbit]

Wow... I'd totally forgotten about Casey Jacobsen... thanks for that...

 

[Superbone]

Wow... I'd totally forgotten about Casey Jacobsen... thanks for that...

I'm sure glad we got him over that Tayshaun Prince guy.

 

[slinslin]

Nash didn't even average as many assists as KJ did in his prime. KJ had no problem sharing the ball.

His problem? Staying healthy. A healthy KJ is one of the best PG's of all-time.

Oh please god how many more times do we need this silly argument?

KJ in his prime had two season where he averaged more than 11apg

12.2 in 89 (Pace 104.5)
11.4 in 90 (Pace 100.7)

Nash had 4 11+apg season and the pace in each of those years was between 94 and 95..

KJ averaged more assists one time in games that had an average of 10 more possessions and KJ played about 5 more minutes per game to do it.

Kevin Johnson was good but Steve Nash is easily one of the 3 greatest PGs of all time.

 

[slinslin]

KJ had 3 straight 20-10 season and the 4th season he missed it by .3 PPG. That includes a 20-12 and 22-11 season. Just going off of numbers alone it is hard to argue that a healthy KJ in his prime isn't the best Suns PG of all time.

You are right it is hard to argue, it would take a massive amount of ignorance and stupidity to claim that anyone other than Nash is by far the best Suns PG of all time.

There can't even be a discussion about this.

Not only are all statistics saying Nash by far, so do accolades.

Also not having Amare on some of those rosters is criminal. He is easily #1 or even #2 at PF since Barkely was here basically just 2 years. And if not Amare should easily be the starting center over someone like Adams, no contest.

 

[slinslin]

Saying his stats were a product of the time is absurd. When Johnson was at his best the only guys beating his assist numbers were Magic and Stockton, the two greatest point guards (well... Magic was a center or something according to Slin) of all time.

And we didnt have the same predictable struggles in the clutch with Nash? How many times did we see Nash dribble into the lane and get mugged in the clutch for a TO with no call? Or dribble around endlessly as the clock near expiring as no one could get open?

You are hilarious.

And nobody with a little understanding of advanced stats would ever claim Stockton to be the 2nd greatest PG of all time.

Second best is between Steve Nash and Walt Frazier.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731
non-Suns fans seem to think the same

And of course the raw assist numbers of Magic, Stockton and Johnson are a product of time. If you still can't grasp the concept of pace you can't be helped, ignorant as always.

 

[Phrazbit]

You are hilarious.

And nobody with a little understanding of advanced stats would ever claim Stockton to be the 2nd greatest PG of all time.

Second best is between Steve Nash and Walt Frazier.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731
non-Suns fans seem to think the same

And of course the raw assist numbers of Magic, Stockton and Johnson are a product of time. If you still can't grasp the concept of pace you can't be helped, ignorant as always.

lol, yes, you're the master of advanced stats. I recall you tutoring me in Beasley's "good" true shooting numbers, which ranked somewhere in the 200s league wide.

Basically, in your world, anyone who played in the 80s or early 90s... stunk... because they played at a faster pace. I understand pace perfectly well, I also understand that EVERYONE was playing at that kind of pace on those two (Magic and Johnson) were an another level from the rest of the league.

Furthermore...

1995: John Stockton 12.3 assist per game. Utah Jazz 92.6 pace.
2005: Steve Nash 11.5 assist per game. Suns 95.9 pace.

I can point out another like 5 seasons of Stockton putting up more assists at a slower pace... but I think there is already a fat enough dump resting on your head as is.

It always slays me how badly you butcher your efforts to flaunt advanced stats and by gone eras which you dont even remotely comprehend.