Amaré expects to be ''100%''

[pokerface]

You said the Suns lied. How can they have lied if his microfractured knee was fine? They never said that overcompensation wouldn't be a problem. In fact, they never mentioned it at all.

Yeah they dont ever mention any potential complications. They just throw "pie in the sky" estimates out there and run with it. People in the know are aware of such complications....that was just one of them. It was said by a therapist on this board that many times when a person has microfractue done on one knee they end up needing the procedure done on the other knee as well....that was said by the poster long before his other knee flared up so its seems right on to me.

Also you're just assuming Amares microfracture knee was "just fine". I bet many a doctor out there would have preferred Amare take more time off than just 5 months. Name other NBA players that came back from microfracture in 5 months and were just fine. You can't.

I'd like to see your link to where the Suns said he would be 100% in 4-5 months. I know they said they will try to see where he is in 4-5 months and it will be up to him whether to go or not, assuming there were no problems with the microfractured knee. And there wasn't.

Why must I produce links when its common knowledge that the Suns said Amare would return around allstar break. Its also common knowledge that they said they wouldn't bring Amare back until he's 100%. Chaplin you can add 2+2 cant you? They made these statements seperate from each other but both were made. It amounts to them saying "We're going to bring Amare back in 5 months and he'll be 100%".

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah they dont ever mention any potential complications. They just throw "pie in the sky" estimates out there and run with it. People in the know are aware of such complications....that was just one of them. It was said by a therapist on this board that many times when a person has microfractue done on one knee they end up needing the procedure done on the other knee as well....that was said by the poster long before his other knee flared up so its seems right on to me.

Also you're just assuming Amares microfracture knee was "just fine". I bet many a doctor out there would have preferred Amare take more time off than just 5 months. Name other NBA players that came back from microfracture in 5 months and were just fine. You can't.



Why must I produce links when its common knowledge that the Suns said Amare would return around allstar break. Its also common knowledge that they said they wouldn't bring Amare back until he's 100%. Chaplin you can add 2+2 cant you? They made these statements seperate from each other but both were made. It amounts to them saying "We're going to bring Amare back in 5 months and he'll be 100%".

Provide a link to prove your "common knowledge". Calling me stupid isn't going to prove to me that you are correct. PROVE IT. Your theories mean nothing. But that is hardly a surprise when you can't even provide any kind of support to back them up.

Please tell me where the Suns said he would be "back by the All-Star break". I remember saying they would evaluate where he was at the break, but they never once said that he would be back. Stop making stuff up. Again, PROVE it.

You're right, they said they wouldn't bring Amare back unless he was 100%. At the time he came back for 3 games, the Suns and their doctors said that THE MICROFRACTURED KNEE WAS IN GOOD SHAPE. And it was, because there have been NO reports of any complications IN THAT KNEE. It was his right knee that had problems from that point on. That is common knowledge. Are you so blind that you don't see that??

The point is, the Suns organization did not lie to you or anybody else. That is what is common knowledge. Your "why must I provide links" proves to me that you don't have any.

 

[pokerface]

You mean the microfractured comspiracy theories?

Somehow the negative reactions to statements has become weird.

1. Amare thinks he'll be 100% by the start of the season. Since Penny said similar stuff, this means Amare is going to be like Penny.

2. D'Antoni makes very cautious statements and points out that the Suns can be successful even if Amare is not ready. This is taken to be proof that he knows Amare is damaged goods.

The definition of a true "conspiracy theory" is that all evidence is used to confirme the theory and any evidence that doesn't fit just proves a wider conspiracy.

George,

Penny said he was rushed back in to service before he was ready. That seems consistant with the Amare situation in that the predicted 4-5 month return schedule seemed like a rush job as well. I dare say too that they knew Amare wasn't 100% ready when they put him back in service. I dont believe it was such a shock. They watch these guys in practice all the time.

 

[George O'Brien]

George,

Penny said he was rushed back in to service before he was ready. That seems consistant with the Amare situation in that the predicted 4-5 month return schedule seemed like a rush job as well. I dare say too that they knew Amare wasn't 100% ready when they put him back in service. I dont believe it was such a shock. They watch these guys in practice all the time.

If Amare he reinjured his left knee, then the attempt to bring him back would have been impossibly stupid. But that's not what happened. Perhaps it was inevitable that his right knee would get hurt too, but that is not all that clear.

If all that mattered was the left knee, then working with Amare to get him into shape was a sound move. Even when barely able to walk, Amare scored 20 points in just 19 minutes in his first game back. It was not the Amare we know, but he was still pretty impressive. Unfortunately, his right knee couldn't take the stain.

 

[pokerface]

Provide a link to prove your "common knowledge". Calling me stupid isn't going to prove to me that you are correct. PROVE IT. Your theories mean nothing. But that is hardly a surprise when you can't even provide any kind of support to back them up.

Please tell me where the Suns said he would be "back by the All-Star break". I remember saying they would evaluate where he was at the break, but they never once said that he would be back. Stop making stuff up. Again, PROVE it.

You're right, they said they wouldn't bring Amare back unless he was 100%. At the time he came back for 3 games, the Suns and their doctors said that THE MICROFRACTURED KNEE WAS IN GOOD SHAPE. And it was, because there have been NO reports of any complications IN THAT KNEE. It was his right knee that had problems from that point on. That is common knowledge. Are you so blind that you don't see that??

The point is, the Suns organization did not lie to you or anybody else. That is what is common knowledge. Your "why must I provide links" proves to me that you don't have any.

What are you talking about Chaplin? You already admitted yourself they were throwing around 4-5 month return dates. You also said that they said Amare wouldnt return until he's 100%. You're asking me to produce links to something that you and everyone else knows already as fact. To be honest with you I just did a google search and it shows too much results. They mention time and time again that Amare was due back in february then they changed it to March as time got closer.

Here is a link to a few dates and headlines

http://fantasybasketball.usatoday.com/content/player_news.asp?sport=NBA&id=856&line=59901

 

[pokerface]

Jan. 22, 2006 - 9:35 a.m. ET

Amare Stoudemire is taking 15 to 18 foot jumpers now, but is still about two weeks from returning to practice.

After microfracture knee surgery in October, Stoudemire is looking to return in mid-March. "Things have been going great, but we're winning and there is no reason not to take our time," Stoudemire said. "There's no set date, there's nothing set in stone. But I'm more convinced than ever that I'm going to play ... sometime in March."

Source: Contra Costa Times

Jan. 13, 2006 - 10:35 p.m. ET

ESPN is reporting that the Suns are now saying that Amare Stoudemire is likely to come back in March.

We had been hearing February, but that is not going to happen. We are still not sold on the fact that we're going to see the real Amare this year, but it does sound like he's going to play this year.



Dec. 28, 2005 - 9:50 a.m. ET

Amaré Stoudemire (knee) was the last player to leave the MCI Center practice court Tuesday and remains on schedule in his recovery process.

The Suns will remain cautious bringing him back, regardless how good he feels. "I'm feeling a little better. I can tell the progress I'm making, but I'm not pressuring myself to get back out there. That allows me to be 100 percent."

Source: Arizona Republic

Dec. 25, 2005 - 9:07 a.m. ET

Amaré Stoudemire (knee) continues to progress well and will join the team for its upcoming five-game, eight-day trip.

He could progress to the basketball court at the start of February with a fourth positive MRI. "He could be ahead of schedule, but we're not bringing him back ahead of schedule," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said.

Source: Arizona Republic

Nov. 30, 2005 - 11:29 a.m. ET

Amare Stoudemire is rehabbing from his knee surgery and it's going well.

The bad news is that he's not due back until mid-February.

Source: Arizona Republic

Nov. 13, 2005 - 9:15 a.m. ET

Amaré Stoudemire (knee) is expected to begin walking without crutches in two weeks, team physician Thomas Carter said.

Stoudemire continues to target a return around the All-Star break. His thigh muscle mass has not decreased despite using crutches for a month - that's very rare.

Source: Arizona Republic

 

[pokerface]

Gee wiz Chaplin...Seems to me they're doing a lot of talk about schedules, target dates, and due dates. Sounds like they had a plan going...a plan to return Amare to service in 5 months when not one other player you can name EVER returned in 5 months from microfracture....and if by some miracle you can dig up a name of some athlete that returned I bet he wasnt any good in that amount of recovery time.


The Suns laid out that 4-5 month spiel because they wanted fans to buy season tickets thinking Amare would return. They knew Amare wouldnt be a factor for that season but they hyped it up anyhoo. I remember way back when they hyped Penny just the same in the offseason....we've been down this road before. The road of predictions, missed return dates, and failed comebacks....more hype...more lies...yadda yadda yadda

 

[pokerface]

Did another google search....they said this about Kidd

"The New Jersey Nets' Jason Kidd, who had his operation in summer 2003, looks as if he's just about back to normal. But it took him the better part of a year and a half to return to form."


Took Kidd 18 months....Now Amare was supposed to be close or near 100% in five months?? The Suns really believed that? Nahhh...

Do a search on Randolph, Martin, Kidd, Webber...see how long they took. Its always a year plus timeframe. Kidd said you need patience coming back from microfracture. Doesnt sound like the Suns had patience spouting off a REDICULOUS four month timeframe at first. I think I remember Don Nelon coming out and saying how unreasonable that timeframe was. The Suns DID say Amare would return in four months...thats why the press was all over the web using it.

 

[Amare32]

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[Joe Mama]

Pokerface, can you read? Every one of those quotes you posted as a target date, but then it's followed by stuff like talk about how they aren't going to rush him back until he's ready and don't expect him to be the old Amare Stoudemire at first. You just didn't bold those comments.

I also can't understand how you keep trying to compare Amare Stoudemire's microfracture surgery with everyone else's. All of these other players had major knee problems. Most of them are older players. The situation was different.

BTW, I just want him to say something like, "I'm working hard, and I feel good about war at that right now. I can't give you a percentage. I'm feeling more explosive than I did a couple months ago. With hard work I hope that I can get back to where I was before the injury."

I mean does ANYONE actually believe that Amare Stoudemire will be 100% at the beginning of the season? Hell, I don't think he'll ever be as explosive as he was before his injury. I just hope he can be somewhere close.

Joe

 

[Mainstreet]

Did another google search....they said this about Kidd

"The New Jersey Nets' Jason Kidd, who had his operation in summer 2003, looks as if he's just about back to normal. But it took him the better part of a year and a half to return to form."


Took Kidd 18 months....Now Amare was supposed to be close or near 100% in five months?? The Suns really believed that? Nahhh...

Do a search on Randolph, Martin, Kidd, Webber...see how long they took. Its always a year plus timeframe. Kidd said you need patience coming back from microfracture. Doesnt sound like the Suns had patience spouting off a REDICULOUS four month timeframe at first. I think I remember Don Nelon coming out and saying how unreasonable that timeframe was. The Suns DID say Amare would return in four months...thats why the press was all over the web using it.

Pokerface, I think you enjoy this discussion.

The only real flaw I see in your argument regarding Amare's microfracture needing more time to heal is that the knee with the microfracture (late last season and now per Amare) is feeling good. It has been the other knee, the right knee... the one that was scoped, drained and cleaned out... that has been the problem.

As I said before, I am going to believe Amare is healthy unless there is some hidden problem with the right knee. Now I can understand your concerns about that knee... but it has repeatedly been examined so let's hope the doctors are right. Now I don't think multiple doctors and a trainer are involved in this conspiracy theory.

Enjoy the Suns.

 

[George O'Brien]

Pokerface, can you read? Every one of those quotes you posted as a target date, but then it's followed by stuff like talk about how they aren't going to rush him back until he's ready and don't expect him to be the old Amare Stoudemire at first. You just didn't bold those comments.

I also can't understand how you keep trying to compare Amare Stoudemire's microfracture surgery with everyone else's. All of these other players had major knee problems. Most of them are older players. The situation was different.

BTW, I just want him to say something like, "I'm working hard, and I feel good about war at that right now. I can't give you a percentage. I'm feeling more explosive than I did a couple months ago. With hard work I hope that I can get back to where I was before the injury."

I mean does ANYONE actually believe that Amare Stoudemire will be 100% at the beginning of the season? Hell, I don't think he'll ever be as explosive as he was before his injury. I just hope he can be somewhere close.

Joe

As long as Amare doesn't take up motorcycles, he should be fine.

I don't know how many times we have to go through the core differences between Amare's operation and that of most micorfracture surgeries. Pokerface and others who repeat his arguments keep insisting that Penny is relevant.

1. Most microfracture surgeries follow a long series of operations

2. Most microfracture surgeries are on older players

3. Most microfracture surgeries are on weight baring parts of knees which have no cartilage where the bones meet

4. Most microfracture surgeries are used in areas with very large gaps in the cartilage

How is Amare's surgery different than Hardaway? In almost every aspect. Look at Hardaway BEFORE he came to the Suns:

1996-97 59 games
1997-98 19 games
1998-99 50 games (strike season), but he shot only 42% and 28.6% for three, suggesting he was far from fully healthy

Some guys come back from multiple surgeries and do well. Camby and McDyess have been quite productive. Still, there is little doubt that BC overpaid for damaged goods when he signed Penny. By the time he had microfracture, it was a last resort.

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin, "He has talked nonstop about working on different aspects of his game. I hope you don't ignore that."

I will be delighted to not ignore it if you'll post some quotes from Amare during the past six months to back up your claim.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Maybe saying he talked nonstop about it was overdoing it quite a bit, but I do know there were a few articles where Amare was talking about working on different aspects of his game.

I am not trying to sound narcissistic when I say this but why can't we all take a middle ground with this like I did and hope for a karl malone like Amare Stoudamire? He is not going to have to be the go to guy this season like he was 04-05 AT ALL because of all the talent we have.

Young Karl Malone ver 2.0 That would be more then enough to give us a trophy, we have a hell of a lot more scoring options, different types of players and playstyles, and after having almost the whole team play together a whole season it will make them that much stronger in the next.

Don't be surprised to see Amare scoring 13-16 ppg and that being well more then enough to put us over the top becuase that is all he needs to. He sure as hell won't have to put in 37 even if we go against the spurs again, boris and leandro proved they can hold their own.

 

[Mainstreet]

Maybe saying he talked nonstop about it was overdoing it quite a bit, but I do know there were a few articles where Amare was talking about working on different aspects of his game.

I am not trying to sound narcissistic when I say this but why can't we all take a middle ground with this like I did and hope for a karl malone like Amare Stoudamire? He is not going to have to be the go to guy this season like he was 04-05 AT ALL because of all the talent we have.

Young Karl Malone ver 2.0 That would be more then enough to give us a trophy, we have a hell of a lot more scoring options, different types of players and playstyles, and after having almost the whole team play together a whole season it will make them that much stronger in the next.

Don't be surprised to see Amare scoring 13-16 ppg and that being well more then enough to put us over the top becuase that is all he needs to. He sure as hell won't have to put in 37 even if we go against the spurs again, boris and leandro proved they can hold their own.

I know a lot of people dislike Karl Malone because of his elbows and such, but IMO, he was one of the best PF's to ever play the game. Amare could do a lot worse than play like a Karl Malone or an Elton Brand. I'm still upset the Suns didn't draft Malone when they had a chance... way back when.

Of course, I would prefer to have the old Amare back.

 

[George O'Brien]

Malone's career stats were amazing and he was never close to being as explosive as Amare.

In any case, the problem is not what Amare is saying but what the reporters are asking. For example, I was very interested when I heard he was working on going left. Just look at how effective Nash is by going left and compound it by 100.

Most defenders emphasize overplaying the opponent's tendency (right handed guys go right and lefty's go left) to the point of all but daring the guy to go the other direction. If Amare can go left, it will force a much more straight up defense, which is much easier to beat.

 

[Errntknght]

CaptainInsano, "Maybe saying he talked nonstop about it was overdoing it quite a bit, but I do know there were a few articles where Amare was talking about working on different aspects of his game."

I remember an article or two like that before his knee problems but none since then... maybe you could help Chaplin point some out to me.


I am not trying to sound narcissistic when I say this but why can't we all take a middle ground with this like I did and hope for a karl malone like Amare Stoudamire? He is not going to have to be the go to guy this season like he was 04-05 AT ALL because of all the talent we have.

For one thing, I have no idea what you mean when you say a Karl Malone like Amare. Karl was much heavier and stronger than Amare and about as fast up and down the floor as pre-MFS Amare plus he had a tough, nasty streak yet you talk as though Amare minus his explosiveness and probably some speed makes him the equal of young Karl. I don't think we'd mind much if it turned out that way but it seems to be far from the foregone conclusion you make it out to be.

Secondly, a good number of us perceive ourselves to be taking a middle of the road approach and you give that just as little support as your peculiar position receives. (Probable all of us perceive ourselves as taking the middle of the road position - with the other guys being the extremists.)

 

[George O'Brien]

Malone late in his career was not very fast, but still put up some awsome numbers. Yes Malone was proably stronger than Amare was, but I'll bet Amare is stronger than he was before his injury. Upper body is something he could work on even when his knee was not very good.

Perhaps you are taking a "middle of the road position", but your "glass half empty" style doesn't make it sound that way.

 

[Errntknght]

One of the most remarkable things about Karl Malone is how injury free he was for the bulk of his career. I don't recall the precise numbers but it was along the lines of missing about ten games in his first 12 years. I should have mentioned that as another way that CaptainInsano's notion - about Amare loss of capability only reducing him to Malone's level - was far off the mark.

 

[CaptainInsano]

One of the most remarkable things about Karl Malone is how injury free he was for the bulk of his career. I don't recall the precise numbers but it was along the lines of missing about ten games in his first 12 years. I should have mentioned that as another way that CaptainInsano's notion - about Amare loss of capability only reducing him to Malone's level - was far off the mark.

If I would have known you were such a huge Karl Malone fan, I would have kept it to myself not to upset you so much!

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

http://www.azcentral.com/blogs/index.php?blog=193&blogtype=Sports

From Coro's blog (just to add a little more spice to this thread:

Stat sidelined

10/02/2006 04:00:34

You must be registered for see images attach

Amare Stoudemire pulled himself out of today's Suns practice, just the team's third day of training camp in Treviso. He cited a stiff right knee, not the one repaired by microfracture a year ago but the one that had surgery to remove a cyst and debris in April.
He expects to play today, when Phoenix has a morning practice and evening scrimmage.
Stoudemire probably spent three-quarters of the practice doing exercise on the sideline but Steve Nash did as well. The latter is by design, though. Nash, who dribbled through conditioning runs, worked out on the sideline with core exercises and a jump rope.
He put a scare into Leandro Barbosa when Barbosa was pumped up about a steal in a defensive drill and came over to slap Nash on the shoulder. Nash feigned injury for a moment, prompting a Barbosa hug.
It's also fun to watch the Suns' defensive drills, especially when the offensive team is made up of a largely stationary, but quick ball-moving team of assistants Dan D'Antoni, Alvin Gentry, Marc Iavaroni, Todd Quinter and Phil Weber.
Another item that jumps out in practices are that Sean Marks and Eric Piatkowski might not just be the roster fillers so many people perceive them to be with Phoenix.
Both can be contributors, maybe not on an every-game basis but there is a good chance an important, occasional one. "Pike" can really shoot it and is in fantastic, lean shape. He learned really fast to be ready for Steve Nash's passes even when he didn't think Nash had a chance of seeing him. "Kiwi" (that's the New Zealander center) runs and shoots well for a center while always playing aggressively. He has quickly won over his teammates.

 

[The Commish]

I'm glad that his microfracture knee is doing well, but the fact that his other knee continues to bother him worries me. If there is nothing structurally wrong with it then why do problems persist? Is he still favoring it? I mean if his microfracture knee is good to go like everyone says, then in theory he shouldn't be putting more weight on his other knee. I have a feeling this is going to be a long up-and-down season for Amare.

 

[Errntknght]

CaptainInsano, "If I would have known you were such a huge Karl Malone fan, I would have kept it to myself not to upset you so much!"

I'm not a Karl Malone fan at all but I have eyes and I have followed NBA basketball for more decades than I really want to admit to - Karl was hard to miss. Your posts didn't upset me in the least nor will any of your future ones so don't let that concern keep from posting whatever you like - thats what message boards are for. And for disputing things other people write in their posts. (I must admit that now and then I do get a bit excited when someone starts in with personal remarks - anticipating the fun of a verbal tiff. Your jumping to the conclusion that I was a Karl Malone fan and upset are well below that threshold, however.)

I was most disappointed that you didn't post a few of the recent quotes from Amare where he talks about expanding his game. If, like you and Chap say, they abound what is the problem with posting a few?

 

[CaptainInsano]

I'm not a Karl Malone fan at all but I have eyes and I have followed NBA basketball for more decades than I really want to admit to - Karl was hard to miss. Your posts didn't upset me in the least nor will any of your future ones so don't let that concern keep from posting whatever you like - thats what message boards are for. And for disputing things other people write in their posts. (I must admit that now and then I do get a bit excited when someone starts in with personal remarks - anticipating the fun of a verbal tiff. Your jumping to the conclusion that I was a Karl Malone fan and upset are well below that threshold, however.)

I was most disappointed that you didn't post a few of the recent quotes from Amare where he talks about expanding his game. If, like you and Chap say, they abound what is the problem with posting a few?

Good good I honestly thought that I got you upset in someway and I can easily see how you would find it insulting if it seemed I was saying an injured Amare playing at lets say 80% was in my idea a carbon copy of Karl Malone and that is not what I meant actually.

I was trying to hint that Amare's game would resemble more of the Stockton and Malone type pick and pop with Nash and Amare. Amare more favoring the 10-15 ft unstopable jumpshot that Malone was known for as well as the occasional dunk (unlike the 04-05 Amare dunking over everyones head).

With 2 knees that have had surgery I just do not find it probable that Amare will be willing to take the constant harsh physical contact inside.

The last part about the quotes I wouldn't say very recent but they were after his surgery maybe a month or two before he came back. If you don't believe me or think im trying to refute your point I am not, just pulling from memory what I am positive I read a few articles of. Of course this is all worthless because I am just talking about what I read "from memory" but I genuinely swear I remember reading a few articles where he hinted at improving different parts of his game.

 

[Joe Mama]

You don't really need Amare Stoudemire's quotes about how much he worked on other aspects of the game. Grahamcrackr actually saw him play a couple times in Las Vegas and said his passing and dribbling skills are much, much better than preinjury. Same goes for his shooting.

I honestly don't worry about his offense so much as his defense and rebounding. This is why I don't think it's right at this point to hope for Karl Malone.

I hope I'm wrong, but I fully anticipate being disappointed when I see Amare Stoudemire play in 30 days. I'm trying to keep expectations low, but I'll still be disappointed if/when I watch him struggle.

Joe