Amare to opt out if suns dont give MAX

[dreamcastrocks]

Hopefully they can work out some kind of a sign and trade so they get something in return, but I really hope they don't give him the max. $60M over 4 years is as much as I'd offer him.

Amare would laugh at that contract. Teams that want Amare pray that's what we offer.

 

[Sunshooter]

Sign and trade pls

 

[Mainstreet]

Salary is comparable. In no way can you say that Lewis and Amare have the same value to their team. That's silly.

The point I was making, is Amare really worth more than Rashard Lewis type money to the Suns even though it is considerably less that what Amare is apparently asking, $127 M over six years.

IMO, Amare becomes more of a jump shooter and a slasher against a tall athletic frontline like what the Lakers presented. His defense and rebounding do not redeem him. He is not a player that can carry the Suns on his back... similar to Rashard in Orlando. I think Orlando vastly overpaid for Rashard. Do the Suns overpay for Amare? IMO, unless the Suns can work out a less outrageous contract with Amare for money and years (not likely to happen) a sign and trade would be the best option. However, here is the grabber. If the Suns hope to be a contender the Suns cannot afford to lose Amare for nothing. No good answer here if he walks unless the Suns plan to trade players like LB and Jason Richardson. I do think in the Suns system, Amare can be replaced by a player earning much less money just like I think Orlando could replace Lewis for a player earning far less money.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The point I was making, is Amare really worth more than Rashard Lewis type money to the Suns even though it is considerably less that what Amare is apparently asking, $127 M over six years.

IMO, Amare becomes more of a jump shooter against a tall athletic frontline like what the Lakers presented. His defense and rebounding do not redeem him. He is not a player that can carry the Suns on his back... similar to Rashard in Orlando. I think Orlando vastly overpaid for Rashard. Do the Suns overpay for Amare? IMO, unless the Suns can work out a less outrageous contract with Amare for money and years (not likely to happen) a sign and trade would be the best option. However, here is the grabber. If the Suns hope to be a contender the Suns cannot afford to lose Amare for nothing. No good answer here if he walks unless the Suns plan to trade players like LB and Jason Richardson. I do think in the Suns system, Amare can be replaced by a player earning much less money just like I think Orlando could replace Lewis for a player earning far less money.

Again, even if you think that you are overpaying for Amare, you do it. You HAVE to overpay in this league for big men. How else can Foyle and Dampier together make over 100M? Those players combined couldn't hold Amare's jock. You (and many others) might think that this team would be crippled by offering Amare the max, but that is far from certain.

 

[SirStefan32]

Amare would laugh at that contract. Teams that want Amare pray that's what we offer.

Ok, let them sign him for $20M+ per year and cripple themselves financially for the duration of his contract.

 

[Mainstreet]

Again, even if you think that you are overpaying for Amare, you do it. You HAVE to overpay in this league for big men. How else can Foyle and Dampier together make over 100M? Those players combined couldn't hold Amare's jock. You (and may others) might think that this team would be crippled by offering Amare the max, but that is far from certain.

I agree the Suns have to overpay for a good big man but to what extent. I guess memories of Tom Gugliotta keep rolling around in my head. Foyle and Dampier are good examples of overpaying for average talent. At least Amare is not in that category.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Ok, let them sign him for $20M+ per year and cripple themselves financially for the duration of his contract.

We hear that same song and dance, but prove how the Suns will be crippled. We're the Bulls crippled when they signed Jordan to 20+ per year? Were the Heat crippled when the signed Shaq to the 4 year 100M deal? Nope, they won titles.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I agree the Suns have to overpay for a good big man but to what extent. I guess memories of Tom Gugliotta keep rolling around in my head. Foyle and Dampier are good examples of overpaying for average talent. At least Amare is not in that category.

Gugliotta would have been good for us barring that unfortunate injury. You don't go into a contract with the intention of not signing because of an injury that might happen.

 

[SirStefan32]

We hear that same song and dance, but prove how the Suns will be crippled. We're the Bulls crippled when they signed Jordan to 20+ per year? Were the Heat crippled when the signed Shaq to the 4 year 100M deal? Nope, they won titles.

Wow! Did you just compare Amare Stoudemire to Jordan and Shaq? Seriously?

 

[Chaplin]

We hear that same song and dance, but prove how the Suns will be crippled. We're the Bulls crippled when they signed Jordan to 20+ per year? Were the Heat crippled when the signed Shaq to the 4 year 100M deal? Nope, they won titles.

Assuming the salary cap keeps going DOWN and salaries keep going up, how does a max contract NOT cripple any team?

And when he goes down in 3 years with arthritic knees, will you come around and say, "well, at least we're not crippled"?

 

[SirStefan32]

Gugliotta would have been good for us barring that unfortunate injury. You don't go into a contract with the intention of not signing because of an injury that might happen.

But you have to consider somebody's history. If somebody has never been hurt, you can not predict their health for the length of the contract, but he is still lower risk than somebody with a history of injuries.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Wow! Did you just compare Amare Stoudemire to Jordan and Shaq? Seriously?

I compared their contracts, yes. I also compared it to Rashard Lewis. You do understand that comparisons can be made without things being completely equal right?

 

[Chaplin]

We hear that same song and dance, but prove how the Suns will be crippled. We're the Bulls crippled when they signed Jordan to 20+ per year? Were the Heat crippled when the signed Shaq to the 4 year 100M deal? Nope, they won titles.

The Heat also had Dwayne Wade, and the East was still the cupcake conference back then. And if they wouldn't have been able to get the Suns to take Shaq off their hands, who's to say it wouldn't have crippled them? Of course, you'll probably say "they won the title," but honestly, do you really think that Amare Stoudemire on a max contract will get us a title? I don't think it will.

Teams are different nowadays, certainly since Jordan was around. Why people don't understand that, I don't know.

Stoudemire is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He wants a max contract, but won't go to a team unless they are building for a championship. The very fact that he would have a max contract hampers a team from building--he just takes up too much space on the cap.

 

[SirStefan32]

You do realize that Amare alone would account for 35-40% of salary cap, right?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Assuming the salary cap keeps going DOWN and salaries keep going up, how does a max contract NOT cripple any team?

And when he goes down in 3 years with arthritic knees, will you come around and say, "well, at least we're not crippled"?

Maybe that's part of the problem. The cap was expected to go down, and yet it went up.

If he goes down 3 years from now, then maybe it wasn't a good idea. We could all play hindsight years later.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We hear that same song and dance, but prove how the Suns will be crippled. We're the Bulls crippled when they signed Jordan to 20+ per year? Were the Heat crippled when the signed Shaq to the 4 year 100M deal? Nope, they won titles.

this is a REALLY bad example you just used to prove your point. You can't just compare their contracts without comparing what the team got back for those contracts.

seriously... if we were signing a guy who could be a dominant force on offense AND defense like both of the above could, then it would be a valid comparison on contracts. However, Amare is pretty mediocre on d (and that's being kind) and against big front lines, has trouble with his offense.

 

[Mainstreet]

We hear that same song and dance, but prove how the Suns will be crippled. We're the Bulls crippled when they signed Jordan to 20+ per year? Were the Heat crippled when the signed Shaq to the 4 year 100M deal? Nope, they won titles.

Okay let's say the Suns pay Amare the maximum. What happens to the rest of the roster. LB and/or JRich would likely have to go. Would JRich be considered a financial liability like KT. Both players had large expiring contracts, still had game, but were considered too much of a financial burden to carry. I'm not sure about how the LT would play out.

 

[SirStefan32]

I compared their contracts, yes. I also compared it to Rashard Lewis. You do understand that comparisons can be made without things being completely equal right?

But comparing Amare to two guys who dominated the league for a decade each, give or take a year or two, is ludicrous. There was NOBODY like Jordan in the early to mid 90's, and there was nobody like Shaq since he entered the league and Hakeem declined.
Take Amare out of last years team and add Shaq from 4-5 years ago, this team would have swept every team they played in the playoffs.
Don't you remember how dominant and amazing Shaq was in his prime?

Guys like Shaq and Jordan are amazingly unique. Amare is not even just one tier bellow them.

 

[jibikao]

Stoudemire is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He wants a max contract, but won't go to a team unless they are building for a championship. The very fact that he would have a max contract hampers a team from building--he just takes up too much space on the cap.

Great point! With his max. contract, which team is not crippled?!!!

It is the 6-year that I have problem with. I seriously doubt Amare is even 60% of what he is today after 3 years. Amare is still relying mostly on his athleticism. He has no skillful low post moves so unless he is turning into Frye with long-range shooting, he is not 6-year deal max. contract!!!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The Heat also had Dwayne Wade, and the East was still the cupcake conference back then. And if they wouldn't have been able to get the Suns to take Shaq off their hands, who's to say it wouldn't have crippled them? Of course, you'll probably say "they won the title," but honestly, do you really think that Amare Stoudemire on a max contract will get us a title? I don't think it will.

Teams are different nowadays, certainly since Jordan was around. Why people don't understand that, I don't know.

Stoudemire is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He wants a max contract, but won't go to a team unless they are building for a championship. The very fact that he would have a max contract hampers a team from building--he just takes up too much space on the cap.

Of course he is. He would go to the team that offers him the most money. That's the Suns if they are willing to pay. If it is not the Suns, then any other team can offer him the same amount, so he does have options if it isn't the Suns. Would you expect anything different?

You do realize that Amare alone would account for 35-40% of salary cap, right?

Of course I do. If you hold onto your draft picks and use the NLE, LLE etc, you can build a competitive roster. Our own team is proof of that.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

But comparing Amare to two guys who dominated the league for a decade each, give or take a year or two, is ludicrous. There was NOBODY like Jordan in the early to mid 90's, and there was nobody like Shaq since he entered the league and Hakeem declined.
Take Amare out of last years team and add Shaq from 4-5 years ago, this team would have swept every team they played in the playoffs.
Don't you remember how dominant and amazing Shaq was in his prime?

Guys like Shaq and Jordan are amazingly unique. Amare is not even just one tier bellow them.

Ok, so to be clear, you have a hard time understand comparisons. Again, I'm talking about SALARY ONLY.

Would it help you to go back to the Rashard Lewis comparison?

 

[jibikao]

How come I have a feeling that Heat has already contact Amare? He knows that whatever Suns won't match, Heat will? I mean Wade was pretty clear that he wants help and Amare should fits their puzzle (somehow).

 

[SirStefan32]

Okay let's say the Suns pay Amare the maximum. What happens to the rest of the roster. LB and/or JRich would likely have to go. Would JRich be considered a financial liability like KT. Both players had large expiring contracts, still had game, but were considered too much of a financial burden to carry. I'm not sure about how the LT would play out.

Right, exactly! If Suns had Mark Cuban bankrolling them, I'd say sign Amare, by all means. Keep what you have and keep using MLE, and bi-annual exemption.
Unfortunately, Sarver, like just about every other owner doesn't have Cuban's money.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ok, so to be clear, you have a hard time understand comparisons. Again, I'm talking about SALARY ONLY.

but you can't separate how much you give a player gives from how much how much they give back.

Those guys could win with 20 million per because THEY were the big dog and they made EVERYONE better around them as well. There's ALWAYS a MAX guy and then a close to Max guy on each title winning team. Problem is, if we already have a MAX guy who really is one dimensional, then we'll never win because your MAX guy has to do EVERYTHING well if you want to win a title.

 

[SirStefan32]

Ok, so to be clear, you have a hard time understand comparisons. Again, I'm talking about SALARY ONLY.

Would it help you to go back to the Rashard Lewis comparison?

I understand your comparison just fine. I am just pointing out that you can NOT compare salaries alone without looking at what each player brings to the team.
Sure, you can pay for the Toyota what you should pay for a Lexus, but it doesn't make them equal. You can pay 5,000,000.00 for a two bedroom house in Nebraska if you want, but it would an extremely stupid thing to do.

Stoudemire/Lewis comparison is probably better. Amare is a bit better than Lewis, but Lewis is closer to Amare than Amare is to Jordan or Shaq in their primes.

Orlando has a payroll of $82M+ right now. They are fortunate that they have Dwight Howard, who is clearly the best Center in the NBA, and the best defensive player on any position.
They've already lost Hedo due to money issues (yes, I am aware that they got Carter, but Carter can be dumped after next year) and they will probably lose Reddick this summer. After they dump Carter, they will be well above the cap with only Lewis, Howard, Nelson, Bass, Pietrus, and Gortat under contract.

Suns can NOT afford to have Amare taking 35-40% of their payroll.