Amare to opt out if suns dont give MAX

[dreamcastrocks]

Okay let's say the Suns pay Amare the maximum. What happens to the rest of the roster. LB and/or JRich would likely have to go. Would JRich be considered a financial liability like KT. Both players had large expiring contracts, still had game, but were considered too much of a financial burden to carry. I'm not sure about how the LT would play out.

The roster would be affected anyway. 2 years from now, the roster would be completely bare. It's going to change anyway. We won't have the same roster 2 years from now and it won't be because of Amare's contract.

this is a REALLY bad example you just used to prove your point. You can't just compare their contracts without comparing what the team got back for those contracts.

seriously... if we were signing a guy who could be a dominant force on offense AND defense like both of the above could, then it would be a valid comparison on contracts. However, Amare is pretty mediocre on d (and that's being kind) and against big front lines, has trouble with his offense.

Ok, So let's say it is a bad example and go back to the Rashard Lewis comparison for simplicity sake.

 

[taz02]

It's certainly possible that Amare and a max contract may hamper the team, and most likely will at some point. On the other hand we as suns fans know better than anyone how not having a quality big man can hamper the team.

If there are is a viable option for a quality PF then let him walk. If not sarver better pony up. One thing is certain Amare is getting a max or near max contract from some one.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I understand your comparison just fine. I am just pointing out that you can NOT compare salaries alone without looking at what each player brings to the team.
Sure, you can pay for the Toyota what you should pay for a Lexus, but it doesn't make them equal. You can pay 5,000,000.00 for a two bedroom house in Nebraska if you want, but it would an extremely stupid thing to do.

Stoudemire/Lewis comparison is probably better. Amare is a bit better than Lewis, but Lewis is closer to Amare than Amare is to Jordan or Shaq in their primes.

Orlando has a payroll of $82M+ right now. They are fortunate that they have Dwight Howard, who is clearly the best Center in the NBA, and the best defensive player on any position.
They've already lost Hedo due to money issues (yes, I am aware that they got Carter, but Carter can be dumped after next year) and they will probably lose Reddick this summer. After they dump Carter, they will be well above the cap with only Lewis, Howard, Nelson, Bass, Pietrus, and Gortat under contract.

Suns can NOT afford to have Amare taking 35-40% of their payroll.

Let's take the player's out of the equation and just talk about any player taking up 30+% of the payroll and if it is crippling. That's the real discussion.

I don't think that it is.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

This is definitely a good discussion to help me get through the day.

 

[SirStefan32]

How come I have a feeling that Heat has already contact Amare? He knows that whatever Suns won't match, Heat will? I mean Wade was pretty clear that he wants help and Amare should fits their puzzle (somehow).

And if you already have a true superstar, adding Amare makes sense, assuming a team can afford it. I am still not quite sure that Wade/Amare combo beats Lebron Cavs, DHoward's Magic, or Garnett/Rondo/Pierce/Allen Celtics in the East. There is no chance in hell they beat the Lakers if they make it to the finals. It took Shaq in his prime (granted, the very last year of it) to defeat the crappy Mavs team in the finals. Hell, replace Amare with Lee, and I think that, assuming everything else remains the same, the Suns beat Wade/Amare lead Miami team.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

And if you already have a true superstar, adding Amare makes sense, assuming a team can afford it. I am still not quite sure that Wade/Amare combo beats Lebron Cavs, DHoward's Magic, or Garnett/Rondo/Pierce/Allen Celtics in the East. There is no chance in hell they beat the Lakers if they make it to the finals. It took Shaq in his prime (granted, the very last year of it) to defeat the crappy Mavs team in the finals. Hell, replace Amare with Lee, and I think that, assuming everything else remains the same, the Suns beat Wade/Amare lead Miami team.

How does it not make sense to keep Amare when they already have superstar Nash using this analogy?

 

[Chaplin]

This is definitely a good discussion to help me get through the day.

Maybe our issue here is that we're spending too much time talking about the financials and not paying attention to the product on the floor. Sure, I wouldn't want Amare to become a world-beater on the Heat or Knicks, nobody would if he walked.

But is he worth paying that much money just so that he WON'T go to those other teams? I want the Suns to pay him what he's worth to the Suns, not what he's worth to other teams. And that's just not max money--his play on the floor doesn't merit it. Like in any business transaction, the Suns still would be paying for something to get some sort of return. Amare would never live up to a contract in that range.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Maybe our issue here is that we're spending too much time talking about the financials and not paying attention to the product on the floor. Sure, I wouldn't want Amare to become a world-beater on the Heat or Knicks, nobody would if he walked.

But is he worth paying that much money just so that he WON'T go to those other teams? I want the Suns to pay him what he's worth to the Suns, not what he's worth to other teams. And that's just not max money--his play on the floor doesn't merit it. Like in any business transaction, the Suns still would be paying for something to get some sort of return. Amare would never live up to a contract in that range.

Maybe. The product on the floor tells us that he is a max player though.

 

[SirStefan32]

Let's take the player's out of the equation and just talk about any player taking up 30+% of the payroll and if it is crippling. That's the real discussion.

I don't think that it is.

You can not take the player out of the equation. I don't understand how you just keep trying to compare salaries without considering how much players you're paying those salaries gives back to you.

If Kobe or Lebron is taking 35% of your payroll, you are ok because those two guys are THAT DAMN GOOD. They are dominant on both ends of the floor and can put a team on their back and carry them. Amare is not able to do that.

For example, I LOVE Jason Richardson, but you can NOT pay him $17 or $20M per year and stay competitive.
I would LOVE to keep JRich if he signs for $50M over the next 5 years because he probably gives you enough to justify giving him 15% of your payroll. At $17M per year, he is overpaid as he doesn't give you enough to justify 20% or more of your payroll.

You don't hire a Help Desk technician and pay him as much as you pay a Network Engineer or Administrator.
You don't hire a paralegal and pay him as much as you pay an attorney.
You don't hire a nurse and pay him as much as you pay a doctor.

 

[SirStefan32]

How does it not make sense to keep Amare when they already have superstar Nash using this analogy?

Nash, at 36 is NOT a superstar. Kobe is a superstar. Lebron is a superstar. Wade is a superstar. Howard is a superstar.

Do you really not see any difference between Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and Howard on one side and Nash and Stoudemire on the other?

 

[SirStefan32]

Maybe. The product on the floor tells us that he is a max player though.

I beg to differ. The product on the floor tells me that Amare is the 3rd best player on this team in playoffs, and most definitely NOT a max player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ok, So let's say it is a bad example and go back to the Rashard Lewis comparison for simplicity sake.

ok... because the Magic were awful in previous years, they were able to draft the foundation of their team, getting them their big dog, number 1 player. When you have your big dog already on your team, you can go out and sign Lewis to be a number 2. If we sign Amare, we're making him our Howard and we'll likely never be in position to a) sign a player to a bigger contract b) win the lotto to get the true number 1 guy we need.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How does it not make sense to keep Amare when they already have superstar Nash using this analogy?

Nash isn't a superstar anymore.

 

[Mainstreet]

How does it not make sense to keep Amare when they already have superstar Nash using this analogy?

Actually Amare has been teamed up for years with a two type MVP PG in Steve Nash and he still couldn't carry the Suns frontline. Certainly Nash is no longer playing at that level. Amare needs another dominant player playing with him to divert attention to be most effective in the order of a Lebron or Wade. Actually I'm thinking it would take a player like Lebron to get Amare a Championship. Lebron has the strength to compensate for some of Amare's weaknesses.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I beg to differ. The product on the floor tells me that Amare is the 3rd best player on this team in playoffs, and most definitely NOT a max player.

I think that is a myopic view too. You could say that Gasol is the 3rd or 4th best player on his team this playoffs too, but he would easily command a max salary.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Nash, at 36 is NOT a superstar. Kobe is a superstar. Lebron is a superstar. Wade is a superstar. Howard is a superstar.

Do you really not see any difference between Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and Howard on one side and Nash and Stoudemire on the other?

Nash isn't a superstar anymore.

I still consider Nash a superstar in this league, or pretty damn close.

Actually Amare has been teamed up for years with a two type MVP PG in Steve Nash and he still couldn't carry the Suns frontline. Certainly Nash is no longer playing at that level. Amare needs another dominant player playing with him to divert attention to be most effective in the order of a Lebron or Wade. Actually I'm thinking it would take a player like Lebron to get Amare a Championship. Lebron has the strength to compensate for some of Amare's weaknesses.

That's a different issue, which doesn't necessarily dictate whether he is worth the max or not.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think that is a myopic view too. You could say that Gasol is the 3rd or 4th best player on his team this playoffs too, but he would easily command a max salary.

No, he is the 2nd best player on his team. Second to only the best basketball player in the league.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

No, he is the 2nd best player on his team. Second to only the best basketball player in the league.

Not this playoffs he hasn't been. Overall, of course he is. Amare's the 2nd best player on his team too.

 

[SirStefan32]

I still consider Nash a superstar in this league, or pretty damn close.

So you don't see the difference between Steve Nash and say Kobe Bryant and Lebron James?

 

[SirStefan32]

Not this playoffs he hasn't been. Overall, of course he is. Amare's the 2nd best player on his team too.

Are you serious?

Gasol is averaging 20.1 points on 56% shooting and 77% from the free throw line. He is also grabbing 10.8 rebounds per game and dishing out 3.4 assists and blocking 2.1 shots.

Artest, Fisher, Bynum, and Odom all average less than 10 points per game.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

$21m per year? Eff that. Go for S&T first, if that fails, let him walk. Seriously. Do NOT hamstring this organization with this loafer....

 

[joshstmarie]

21 million dollars is ridiculous. I want phoenix to be able to rebuild after Nash retires, that means having enough cap space to sign our own players dragic/lopez/clark/dudley as well as leaving us some flexibility to go and get some pieces if need be. We are in big trouble if this team is 30 y/o amare @ 20 million and a bunch of roleplayers in two years. If we couldnt get any good offers for him at the deadline this year, imagine what its going to take to get rid of that albatross 2 years from now.....no thanks.

 

[chickenhead]

I do not want to see this happen. A sign-and-trade is preferable to him walking, but like any trade it depends on the return. If it's expiring contracts, then I want to know how it help us more than him walking (ie will the players be stopgaps until an actual plan unfolds for 2011-2012?). Amare reminded us what he can do in the second half of the season, but I don't believe he can or will do it for six years. By the time the playoffs came, it seemed like he'd totally bought into the hype of the Suns having to sign him to the max. Either that, or he was just gameplanned against effectively, and if that's the case--is he the max centerpiece that gets us to the Finals?

Though we love to remind each other of Kobe quitting on his team in the playoffs against the Suns a few years ago, the reality is that for all his moodiness, and as much as I dislike him, he rarely takes games off. Duncan, for all his googly eyes after called fouls, is still a human stat line. Frankly, for two players at PF who have both played out of position at C, it's laughable that Amare is the one with the nickname Stat.

This is not to take anything away from the second half of this season or the number of jaw-dropping plays he's made in a Suns uniform. I just don't see a 6-year max deal as being worth it. The reality is that Sarver was never cheap, he was penny-wise and pound foolish. This would be pound foolish, IMO.

 

[jagu]

Would be a sad day if we give Amare the max deal.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Would be a sad day if we give Amare the max deal.

For me, it will be a sad day if we're forced to let Amare walk. Signing him to a max length/max dollars contract would be apocalyptic. I'd have to find something else to invest my free time in because Phoenix basketball would soon die an ugly death. Oh well, I always wanted to take up duplicate bridge.

Steve