An Offer To Rework Fitz's Deal - Darren Urban

lobo

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He made the pro bowl with 12 other Cowboys. While no one from the Jags made it until Taylor was let in through injury

He got int because their fans stuff the ballots.

The guy wanted a 50 million dollar contract. He is not worth 50 million. Not now, not ever.

I am glad we let him go.

Amen in spades...if JJ thought he was paying that kind of money for a guard there is no way he does it. This is going to indirectly backfire when he has to pay some big money to some other guys. I am not saying good guards are a dime a dozen, but good ones can be found for a whole lot less. He had an attitude problem that did us no good, and certainly the many penalties did not help. Last word on the subject from me.
 

DoTheDew

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Amen in spades...if JJ thought he was paying that kind of money for a guard there is no way he does it. This is going to indirectly backfire when he has to pay some big money to some other guys. I am not saying good guards are a dime a dozen, but good ones can be found for a whole lot less. He had an attitude problem that did us no good, and certainly the many penalties did not help. Last word on the subject from me.

At the rate the cap is inflating, you are going to see more and more guys getting these 50 million dollar contracts that seem like rip offs. Then you'll realize they aren't as over paid as they seem. Market value. The only way this is really going to catch up with JJ is if people lose interest in football or decide the price to see games is too high and the cap stops going up and maybe starts going down (entirely possible with our economic situation).
 

Darth Llama

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Has anyone stopped to think that maybe Graves would rather sign Dansby to a long term deal then have to use the franchise tag on him? The reason he hasn't been tagged yet is because we are trying to work something with him to lock him up long term, not because Graves is lazy. I'm not going to come on here and say Graves is the best GM in the league, because he's not, but all these people that just blame him for everything by default are just as ridiculous. Fitz has been offered an extension, he hasn't given an answer yet, things take time. In the end, I think 40YearFan is right, I'm wasting my breath. You guys will hate him no matter what, so enjoy.
 

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Has anyone stopped to think that maybe Graves would rather sign Dansby to a long term deal then have to use the franchise tag on him? The reason he hasn't been tagged yet is because we are trying to work something with him to lock him up long term, not because Graves is lazy. I'm not going to come on here and say Graves is the best GM in the league, because he's not, but all these people that just blame him for everything by default are just as ridiculous. Fitz has been offered an extension, he hasn't given an answer yet, things take time. In the end, I think 40YearFan is right, I'm wasting my breath. You guys will hate him no matter what, so enjoy.

No, I mostly agree with you. I don't think he's a good GM, but we can't bag on him (yet) for this offseason. I agree that he's waiting until the last minute to tag Dansby in hopes of signing him long-term. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen, but we have the tag for a purpose, and Dansby will still be in red. I'm also not panicking over the Fitz extension. It will get done, I'm sure of it.
 

Darth Llama

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No, I mostly agree with you. I don't think he's a good GM, but we can't bag on him (yet) for this offseason. I agree that he's waiting until the last minute to tag Dansby in hopes of signing him long-term. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen, but we have the tag for a purpose, and Dansby will still be in red. I'm also not panicking over the Fitz extension. It will get done, I'm sure of it.

I think a lot of what we do this off season depends on rather or not Fitz signs that extension. If he does, it gives us a lot more to work with, and a lot more we can do. I think for the most part, we are stuck till we hear from Fitz. Hopefully, he doesn't take too much longer to just say he accepts. After that point, we'll see how good of a job Graves can do. I'm not going to praise him for no reason, I'm just not going to bag on him for nothing either.

Right now, Fitz has the ball.
 

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Has anyone stopped to think that maybe Graves would rather sign Dansby to a long term deal then have to use the franchise tag on him? The reason he hasn't been tagged yet is because we are trying to work something with him to lock him up long term, not because Graves is lazy. I'm not going to come on here and say Graves is the best GM in the league, because he's not, but all these people that just blame him for everything by default are just as ridiculous. Fitz has been offered an extension, he hasn't given an answer yet, things take time. In the end, I think 40YearFan is right, I'm wasting my breath. You guys will hate him no matter what, so enjoy.
I don't hate Graves no matter what and noone is ripping him for this off season. I am commenting on why he is amking remarks as to why the Cards are going to be hamstrung in free agency. I have given Graves credit when i thought it was due. I liked the DG hiring(although i preferred Coughlin),and i like what i have seen out of Whiz so far. He's gotten some guys to re-sign and ,in my mind, made alot more bad personnel decisions than good. Plus, i think he mismanages the cap in a way that prevents the Cards from putting their best product on the field. That could be Bidwill keeping the purse strings tight but Graves is the one who is out there as the face of the front office and his tenure has,overall, not been very good at all.
 

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A lot of my opinion of him will depend on what he does this year. I'm certainly not ready to say he's great, or even good, but what he does this year will have a huge impact on my opinion of him. I guess time will tell.
 

DaisyCutter

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Has anyone stopped to think that maybe Graves would rather sign Dansby to a long term deal then have to use the franchise tag on him? The reason he hasn't been tagged yet is because we are trying to work something with him to lock him up long term, not because Graves is lazy.

I'd have an easier time believing this if Graves had had substantive discussions with Dansby's agent (which he hasn't), and Wolfley hadn't repeated multiple times that Dansby played in a contract year, and that it might be a good idea to see if he can maintain that intensity for a second season.

I think Graves hasn't placed the Franchise tag on Dansby because he hopes that Dansby will break (psychologically), and that he doesn't want to look like he's excited to use the thing. When you're a bad GM, you have to manipulate the media perception as much as possible, because you don't have a lot of goodwill built up with the press or the fans.
 

Darth Llama

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I think Graves hasn't placed the Franchise tag on Dansby because he hopes that Dansby will break (psychologically), and that he doesn't want to look like he's excited to use the thing. When you're a bad GM, you have to manipulate the media perception as much as possible, because you don't have a lot of goodwill built up with the press or the fans.

That sounds like a great strategy to me. You have the Franchise tag sitting there, you can use it anytime you want, why not try and sweat him out a bit and see if he breaks? Remember, Rod Graves job is to do what's best for the Cardinals, not for Dansby. Dansby's interest are the concern of his own agent.
 

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That sounds like a great strategy to me. You have the Franchise tag sitting there, you can use it anytime you want, why not try and sweat him out a bit and see if he breaks? Remember, Rod Graves job is to do what's best for the Cardinals, not for Dansby. Dansby's interest are the concern of his own agent.

You do that and you risk making your best defensive playmaker unhappy and looking forward to leaving in 2009. I don't think that is doing what is best for the Cardinals, weakening an already suspect defense.

Saving a few dollars at the expense of wins was what got the old Cardinals 30 years of losing seasons and a reputation as the armpit of the NFL. I don't think they're still operating that way. I would like to believe that they're trying to work out a deal that is good for both Dansby and the Cardinals without creating any hard feelings on either side.
 

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I think a lot of what we do this off season depends on rather or not Fitz signs that extension. If he does, it gives us a lot more to work with, and a lot more we can do. I think for the most part, we are stuck till we hear from Fitz. Hopefully, he doesn't take too much longer to just say he accepts. After that point, we'll see how good of a job Graves can do. I'm not going to praise him for no reason, I'm just not going to bag on him for nothing either.

Right now, Fitz has the ball.

Yeah, but see, you put it ALL on Fitz, and it definitely isn't. Yeah, the player's agent is certainly culpable in part, but a situation like this ultimately comes back to the GM. An extension makes absolute sense for both parties, and so the onus for getting the extension done really falls on the GM. If it were a tough signing, like the Dansby situation, I would certainly say that it's largely a two-way street in negotiations, and that it's a tough one to get done. With the Fitz extension, it makes great sense for Fitz to get a deal done, making it that much worse for Graves if it doens't happen. Bottom line: a competent GM gets the Fitz extension done.
 

Darth Llama

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You do that and you risk making your best defensive playmaker unhappy and looking forward to leaving in 2009. I don't think that is doing what is best for the Cardinals, weakening an already suspect defense.

Saving a few dollars at the expense of wins was what got the old Cardinals 30 years of losing seasons and a reputation as the armpit of the NFL. I don't think they're still operating that way. I would like to believe that they're trying to work out a deal that is good for both Dansby and the Cardinals without creating any hard feelings on either side.

Of course the focus is on making everyone happy. My point is, going into the negotiations it's on the GM to have the ability to look, not only at the deal in front of him, but the over all status of the team as well. Yes, you want to make Dansby happy, but ultimately, Graves job is to get Dansby on the field by whatever means necessary while still allowing adequate space under the cap to tend to other players and possible free agents. Graves isn't going to get exactly what he wants, neither is Dansby, the trick is finding a middle that makes everyone happy. It's not as easy as just throwing a truck load of cash at Dansby and getting him to sign fast. There are other things impacted by the financial aspects of the deal, and these are things that take time to work out. You want to make Dansby happy, but if the only thing that makes him happy is putting the team in a financial position that makes it hard for them to improve, that's a problem. Like it or not, Graves job is to save money. Not because the Bidwill family is cheap, but because there is only so much money to go around and we need a roster of 53 men, all of whom expect to be paid.

Yeah, but see, you put it ALL on Fitz, and it definitely isn't.

That's not what I did at all. I realize that the agent for Fitz is also involved, my only point was due to the flexibility we need from a new deal with Fitz, there is not much that can really go forward till his situation is resolved. It's the situation with Fitz and what does or doesn't get done, that will determine exactly how much money we have for FA.

An extension makes absolute sense for both parties, and so the onus for getting the extension done really falls on the GM. If it were a tough signing, like the Dansby situation, I would certainly say that it's largely a two-way street in negotiations, and that it's a tough one to get done. With the Fitz extension, it makes great sense for Fitz to get a deal done, making it that much worse for Graves if it doens't happen. Bottom line: a competent GM gets the Fitz extension done.

I'm sorry, but I think the above is an assumption on your part. There are advantages to Fitz not signing an extension as well. He'll get that huge pay day, and be a year closer to testing free agency for an even bigger deal. Fitz has said he wants to stay here, but we all know we have to take things said in the media with a grain of salt. Overall, this is Fitz job, and it's about his paycheck, just like any of us. I'm not saying Fitz doesn't want to be here, I think he does, but to just assume this is an "easy" deal or a no brainer is drawing a lot of unsubstantiated conclusion on your part. I don't see the Fitz deal as being easy at all. They need to try to offer him a deal that's so lucrative it will convince him to make less next year, but at the same time give the team financial freedom to work with other players. Doesn't sound simple to me.

I think a lot of people are simplifying the responsibility that Graves has, and using that inaccurate simplification as justification to say Graves is dragging his feet. The Cardinals are in a rather complex financial position this year, and I for one don't envy the job they have to do. The decisions of this off season are anything but easy. They have to make it all work financially while working with the pressure of knowing that one more losing or non playoff season is going to cause a serious hit in season ticket sales. The people of Arizona aren't going to accept anymore excuses.
 

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I don't know 40. I think that Michael and Graves took over early in 2003. That's when we started to see the changes in overall operations. I get that impression from reading az republic articles from 2002-2004. The results from a won-loss standpoint haven't been very good but you could see that team management was different.

You do have to give some real credit to whoever you decide was the "GM" at the time (2003) because we still had 5 guys on the team from the '03 draft last season. I can't remember the last time, prior to 2007, the Cards still had 5 guys contributing 5 seasons after they were drafted.

Yeah, I might have my time line a little screwed up and it could have been early 2003 instead of late 2003. I know it was 2003 and I could be wrong about him getting an updated contract in 2003. They had just redone it in 2002 and I'm not sure if he got a raise when they changed his duties, so he might have been working under the 2002 contract. I do know he had little if anything to do with getting rid of players in the 2001 and 2002 seasons.
 

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Of course the focus is on making everyone happy. My point is, going into the negotiations it's on the GM to have the ability to look, not only at the deal in front of him, but the over all status of the team as well. Yes, you want to make Dansby happy, but ultimately, Graves job is to get Dansby on the field by whatever means necessary while still allowing adequate space under the cap to tend to other players and possible free agents. Graves isn't going to get exactly what he wants, neither is Dansby, the trick is finding a middle that makes everyone happy.

That I can agree with. I don't agree with making a guy like Dansby sweat to see if he'll break so we can save the Cardinals some money. You can negotiate with most people without making them mad and still get a fair deal if you know what you're doing.
 

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Is that happening ?

Is Dansby mad at the Cardinals ?

The discussion is not about Dansby being mad at the Cardinals but that he could become that way if the team plays hardball with him to save a few bucks.

My contention is that they won't because the Cardinals don't operate that way anymore.

why not try and sweat him out a bit and see if he breaks?

You do that and you risk making your best defensive playmaker unhappy

Of course the focus is on making everyone happy. My point is, going into the negotiations it's on the GM to have the ability to look, not only at the deal in front of him, but the over all status of the team as well. Yes, you want to make Dansby happy

That I can agree with.....You can negotiate with most people without making them mad and still get a fair deal if you know what you're doing.
 

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I agree, it certainly seems they don't do that these days

Thankfully not! I'm glad we've changed that whole trend.

Darth, Fitz could get that payday...then get hurt and never get another penny for the rest of his career. Or, he could sign a huge extension that will give him plenty of guaranteed money, but still lower his cap hit quite a bit. Most players have historically jumped at the extension. Now, if he was going to be a FA next offseason, then it would be a whole other story--he could try to play out his deal and leave, or leverage us into a bigger deal. With two years remaining, though, it's really too much of an injury risk.
 

Darth Llama

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Darth, Fitz could get that payday...then get hurt and never get another penny for the rest of his career. Or, he could sign a huge extension that will give him plenty of guaranteed money, but still lower his cap hit quite a bit. Most players have historically jumped at the extension. Now, if he was going to be a FA next offseason, then it would be a whole other story--he could try to play out his deal and leave, or leverage us into a bigger deal. With two years remaining, though, it's really too much of an injury risk.

A reasonable argument. Hopefully, that type of thing will motivate Fitz to sign the new deal that the Cards have put out to him. According to reports, the deal they have offered would put Fitz among the highest paid players in the NFL. It definitely seems like a Win/Win for both sides.
 

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A reasonable argument. Hopefully, that type of thing will motivate Fitz to sign the new deal that the Cards have put out to him. According to reports, the deal they have offered would put Fitz among the highest paid players in the NFL. It definitely seems like a Win/Win for both sides.

:thumbup:
 

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“His cap number will have an affect with how we proceed in free agency,” Graves said, allowing that without a new deal, the Cards not only will be hamstrung with new players but also re-signing their own free agents.

You know what? Bull*@#(! Even if Fitz doesn't get an extension, we have enough for our own guys and still enough left over for a few quality FAs. If we do extend Fitz, we have all that, and enough left over for some top-tier FAs. Graves, don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining...do not give me this sorry song. I'm not as dumb as you seem to be! Ugh!

On the other hand, I'm thrilled we came strong with an offer to Fitz. I hope we can get that one done soon.

I read we have 30mil in cap money. From this comes the rookie pool, Fitz, Pace and whoever else on the team we need to sign. Sure does not sound like enough to also sign two FA of any consequence. Graves is quoted as saying do not expect us to sign many or any big FA. Sounds like we are nearing CAP hell for some strange reason. Fitz's big contract eats into a payroll fast. The 30 mil includes the increase in this years team CAP money.
 

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I read we have 30mil in cap money. From this comes the rookie pool, Fitz, Pace and whoever else on the team we need to sign. Sure does not sound like enough to also sign two FA of any consequence. Graves is quoted as saying do not expect us to sign many or any big FA. Sounds like we are nearing CAP hell for some strange reason. Fitz's big contract eats into a payroll fast. The 30 mil includes the increase in this years team CAP money.

The 30 mil was from before all incentives had kicked in from players. We have just under 15 mil now according to joeshmo's numbers

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=105821
 

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40, when do we get a full-size pic of your avatar?
 
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