Arizona Cardinals GM Steve Keim cited for DUI on July 4

[THESMEL]

A sincere congratulations on yours and your family's recovery, but AA isn't for everyone. I know I've tried it, and it didn't take, unfortunately.

Thank you and True about 3 out of 100 get a year in AA, but that chapter covers appropriate intervention guide
Ines for employers- i suggest it to friends and families that are in fear or danger. Also

 

[Solar7]

But you CAN leave the country. You DO possess that volition. You can find a country whose laws, or the enforcement thereof are so lenient so as to meet your desire. Or to take yourself so far off the grid that you really have no need for compliance because you’re not a member of society. And why is it laughable that you could pack up and leave? People do it all the time. Many with little to no means find ways to travel the globe or move to other nations. You don’t because either (a) you’re too lazy to do so . . . in other words you enjoy the conveniences of living in a society, in which case you have to accept the consensus agreed upon rules or maybe (b) you have loved ones that won’t leave, in which case again you desire to be a part of a society (those loved ones) and they decided to be a part of the larger society, and thus in order for you to get what you desire (being close to yiur loved ones) you have to agree to live within the societal rules. But no ones making you. That’s YOUR decision. I’m sure there are nations, or wildnerness where either there aren’t drinking laws, or no enforcement mechanism. You just choose not to go there.

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly with the devices installed in cars. I see no reason not to do so. People want to cry “your taking my freedom!” But the truth is, if you blow something dangerous the device is only limiting yiur freedom to danger others and break a law. So is it really limiting yiur freedom or is it just another mechanism for implementing societal agreed upon rules (like traffic lights)?

I can leave the country with extraordinary odds... I can become a neurosurgeon and move to a country in desperate need of that expertise, but your average Joe cannot head out to another country. I don't want to make this about drinking laws necessarily, I think I'm just smarting from a previous conversation with someone else about the "love it or leave it" thing. I can't easily uproot myself or my family to another region over laws I disagree with - but I'm assuming there's plenty of laws you disagree with too. That's the nature of our republic.

I was making a gun allegory and you basically slid into lockstep with me on the interlock thing. Again, I don't know your politics. I'd probably lean towards guns being taken, and interlocks being installed. (I also appreciate our conversation's civility.)

Replies to come, of course.

 

[Solar7]

we’ve had a good conversation up until now. But the idea that you “have to” drink is a total cop out. I used to be a pretty good social drinker. I still have an occasional drink in social situations. But I also regularly go out with friends to bars, sports bars for games, dinners and/or drinks with coworkers and have zero alcohol. It’s not necessary. It’s a choice. And I’m not “costing the bartender money” because If I didn’t go to that bar neither would my 2-15 friends. Worst argument you’ve made.

I'm not trying to make an argument here, just personal insight, in a different city. My friends would go to that bar without me and wouldn't think twice. I live in a place full of consistent drinkers, and when I lived in Phoenix, it honestly wasn't that much different. But, y'know, I went to ASU. I've been kicked off many a barstool for trying not to drink - asked to sit at a table to enjoy food instead, which is acceptable. But still alienating to my friends.

Anyone who calls themselves a “heavy drinker” should do this 100% of the time.

Which I do. I won't make my friends' errors in judgement anymore - I guess I was "lucky" enough to learn from their poor choices.

I’m sorry I want to clarify something before I respond - are you saying you should be allowed to drink and drive right up to the point before the bolded language above becomes evident?

Nope. "Evident" shouldn't be part of that - it's to whatever point someone is impaired. The issue we have is that we've set a level of acceptable impairment. We're already marginalizing the cutoff. I wouldn't personally argue for zero tolerance, but I would think the argument is sound, if that makes sense.

I think the ultimate goal of the legal limit is to make sure no one gets to the point where their motor skills are limited.

Very true. I had an ex for whom AA didn’t work. She just destroyed her life. It was incredibly horrific to witness.

Unfortunately the places that do seem to work (I believe there’s a place called promises in Malibu that has an incredible track record of long-term permanent success) are incredibly expensive and essentially out of reach for most.

I'm sharing maybe more than I should on a message board, but my honest difficulty with AA was not being able to relate to people who have destroyed their lives. I don't have a DUI, I never lost my job, I've never beaten a woman or lost my kids, I'm very fervently not religious, and when one approaches the system to try to stem the bleeding, your support system has already bled out. There's a ton of people forced in there by the court, people who are scam artists and bad people whether they're sober or not, and others who are in six different addiction programs to the point that they should be in an institution, not a free amateur meeting.

And you mention "horrific to witness" -- despite my challenges with alcohol, every time I tell someone in my life I have a problem, they say "oh no you don't" because I have a job, car, home, and I'm fun to be around. There simply aren't resources for people who haven't hit rock bottom.

Why in advance? Is that 20-90 minutes going to make a difference?

After that whole thing, sorry to finish with this non-starter, but I've been kicked off of so many barstools in my life for not drinking that I can't even keep track anymore. I know a guy who got 86'd for coming into the bar and only ordering fries and diet coke. It sucks, but people feel uncomfortable with people that aren't drinking around them during a drinking event, and bartenders want the money.

Viva Las Vegas. Thanks for letting me lay this all out there.

 

[CFLredzoned]

Who’s saying it’s going to be “swept under the rug?” You’re intimating that the only solution is for Keim to lose his job. He’s going to be punished by the league and by the court. Keim will also have to face the humiliation stemming from this incident, and based on some of the reactions from people here, that’s going to be harsh. In short, It’s not going away.

In fact, you’d actually be doing Keim a favor by firing him. He keeps the money from his brand new contract and can either get another job, or take a break from working. Where’s the justice in that?

I'm pretty sure there would be a morality clause in his contract that gives the Cardinals an out. If a video comes out reminiscent of Michael Floyd, I think the Cardinals could walk away from the contract. Pretty sure but not totally sure.

 

[MrYeahBut]

And you mention "horrific to witness" -- despite my challenges with alcohol, every time I tell someone in my life I have a problem, they say "oh no you don't" because I have a job, car, home, and I'm fun to be around. There simply aren't resources for people who haven't hit rock bottom.

I think you know you're correct when you say your friends can't tell you whether you have a drinking problem. Only you can do that. They don't want to lose you as a friend or face their own situation... It scares most people.

You are right when you say there are not a lot of avenues for those in your situation... Private counseling maybe??

To me it's not about how much you drink or with whom you drink, or when, or what or where... It's about what happens when you drink,,,, do you isolate yourself, do you spend money that would be better spent elsewhere, do your relationships suffer, are you sick, do you wake up in Wikieup going wtf??? etc.

If YOU want to deal with it, just start where you are. Willingness is what it takes, imo. If you're not willing, are you willing to be willing? Or are you willing to be willing to be willing etc. Get on that train wherever you can.

I hope you don't regret opening up on a message board, I certainly won't think differently of you about it.

Be honest with yourself, then do what is right for you.

 

[NJCardFan]

But by and large the limit is set with some evidence-based design. It’s not a random threshold. It’s when the impairment is typically enough to create a dangerous level. Body weight doesn’t change anything other than the ability to have more drinks until reaching the threshold. And “tolerance” is waaaay to subjective a measure to rely upon from a legal perspective. We live in a society. As such we create laws for the betterment of all people. You live in the society you agree to abide by the laws. You don’t and you pay the consequences.

And Keim isn’t below 21 so the zero tolerance policy has no relevance to this conversation.

End of the day, particularly with the scrutiny of football, Keim should really know better. This is inexcusable.

It actually is a random threshold. When I was first going through drivers ed, the DUI limit was .10 which at the time was equivalent to 1 12oz beer, 1.5oz of 80proof booze or 1 glass of wine. Now, I don't know about you but I can drink 2 beers and can hop on 1 leg and sing my abc's no problem at all. In fact, 2 beers and I'm not even buzzed. And after an hour(which was the amount of time that was the rule of thumb back then) all I'd have to do is take a piss. I could probably drive backwards better than a lot of sober people can drive straight. Of course I was 180lbs when I was 17. Now, chances are my then 115lb girlfriend would be flying after 2 beers.

Then, for some reason, they lowered the BAC to .08. Reason? So they can catch more people. More people, more money. They set these arbitrary numbers as a revenue scheme not for any safety reasons. To some, they can get a BAC level of .08 from a shot of Nyquil.

So, since there are several factors that play into whose drunk, you can't say that pulling .08 out of a hat isn't arbitrary.


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[gimpy]

NJ, I'm not sure where you got some of your information, but I think a lot of it is incorrect.

One drink (one 12 oz beer, 1 shot of whiskey, 1 glass of wine) is not equal to a .10 BAC reading. Depending on a lot of factors (age, weight, sex, etc.), that would probably equal to a .03 or .04 (estimating) reading.

I think the reason the legal limit for driving under the influence was reduced from .10 to a .08 probably had nothing to do with "more people, more money", but for scientific\medical reasons. The lower limit is because people's judgement and coordination, etc. are adversely affected.

 

[Solar7]

I think you know you're correct when you say your friends can't tell you whether you have a drinking problem. Only you can do that. They don't want to lose you as a friend or face their own situation... It scares most people.

You are right when you say there are not a lot of avenues for those in your situation... Private counseling maybe??

To me it's not about how much you drink or with whom you drink, or when, or what or where... It's about what happens when you drink,,,, do you isolate yourself, do you spend money that would be better spent elsewhere, do your relationships suffer, are you sick, do you wake up in Wikieup going wtf??? etc.

If YOU want to deal with it, just start where you are. Willingness is what it takes, imo. If you're not willing, are you willing to be willing? Or are you willing to be willing to be willing etc. Get on that train wherever you can.

I hope you don't regret opening up on a message board, I certainly won't think differently of you about it.

Be honest with yourself, then do what is right for you.

Thanks for the openness. Of course I spend too much money, but I don't wake up sick, I don't wake up lost, sometimes I find myself down and depressed a little bit. But, mostly having a good time. I know it'll catch up to me.

I'm seeing a counselor who thinks I'm not an alcoholic, even though I do. There's willingness for me to accept that I either have a problem, or am on a course to having a problem. My grandfather had a problem, and my dad would have had a problem if not for self control, and my mom. We're sliding off of the Keim situation here though.

 

[MrYeahBut]

@Solar7

As far as Steve Kiem goes, I'm just bummed by the whole situation. It's not that I think he's the greatest GM ever, it's just a total let down from the professionally run organization I thought the Cardinals had become...

I'm not going to throw stones at him whatever the case may be. I have no grounds on which to base a superior morality owing to what transpired in my own life. I know the pain and humiliation he is in right now and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I have no clue as to what's in his best interest, Hell, I don't know what my own best interests are most of the time.

sometimes I find myself down and depressed a little bit.

btw, "a little bit"... that's what's commonly known as minimizing the problem.

 

[Passepartout]

Hope he can get help if he does have a problem. And hope that he does not get arrested for anymore DUI's.

 

[Sandan]

Bullsh**** a DUI is a DUI POINT BLANK PERIOD!!

Where’s BIM telling the stories of friends getting killed because of drunk drivers? Usually first one to post. Now y’all are all quiet because he’s a GM? And a bad one at that. So much for DJ’s extension.

Floyd was a repeat offender and caught comatose at the wheel in the middle of an intersection.

Yes DUI is bad and there needs to be consequences but by any measure Floyd's case was way way worse

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

I'm not trying to make an argument here, just personal insight, in a different city. My friends would go to that bar without me and wouldn't think twice. I live in a place full of consistent drinkers, and when I lived in Phoenix, it honestly wasn't that much different. But, y'know, I went to ASU. I've been kicked off many a barstool for trying not to drink - asked to sit at a table to enjoy food instead, which is acceptable. But still alienating to my friends.

I can't imagine going to a bar and not drinking...Drunk people are usually twice as annoying when you don't have a decent buzz yourself

In the Uber-age... Driving drunk is just 100% stupid.

Not that it wasn't pre-Uber.

 

[NJCardFan]

NJ, I'm not sure where you got some of your information, but I think a lot of it is incorrect.

One drink (one 12 oz beer, 1 shot of whiskey, 1 glass of wine) is not equal to a .10 BAC reading. Depending on a lot of factors (age, weight, sex, etc.), that would probably equal to a .03 or .04 (estimating) reading.

I think the reason the legal limit for driving under the influence was reduced from .10 to a .08 probably had nothing to do with "more people, more money", but for scientific\medical reasons. The lower limit is because people's judgement and coordination, etc. are adversely affected.

That's what was being taught in drivers ed back in the day that one drink an hour of the examples given puts you at .10. And everything you said, I said. Even today I could drink a margarita, a real margarita and not the garbage TGI Fridays gives you, and I'll be fine. Even if I blew a .10 I would in no way be impaired but by law I'd be .02 over the legal limit and by the letter of the law I'd be drunk. That's why I said the numbers are arbitrary.


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[Ronin]

Florio: Steve Keim’s DUI punishment less predictable than for players
http://arizonasports.com/story/1590...punishment-less-predictable-than-for-players/

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Totally unacceptable.

Not about to debate, any justification for poor behavior based on what is worse, etc., etc.

This is a huge mistake by Steve Keim, and regardless of the punishment, this will hurt the organization and team on many social levels within the organization.

I will never understand why poor people can seem to figure out how to use Uber, and cabs, and the people that could get limos to take them places cannot seem to figure this all out.

No excuse.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I can't imagine going to a bar and not drinking.

I do it all the time.

The interaction of "You are not drinking! Why? [Blah, blah, blah, some condencending remark about their "manliness" in comparison to myself because they choose to drink beer and alcohol and I don't]". Usually needs to be had a few times, but they are drinking, and forget about it. Personally, I do not care about a drunk man's opinion, or a drunk woman's opinion for that matter, so no biggie.

To each his own, but again, to each his own.

 

[juza76]

Florio: Steve Keim’s DUI punishment less predictable than for players
http://arizonasports.com/story/1590...punishment-less-predictable-than-for-players/

I dont really care about Nfl punishment towards Steve Keim but im curious to know what bidwill will do

 

[MadCardDisease]

Just got back from a week long holiday break in the mountains.

Very disappointing. Keim should have known better.

Now he must pay the piper and hopefully he learns from this situation.

 

[Jersey Girl]

How far was he from his house? What if he was within walking distance?

If he was within walking distance, then he could have walked.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Agreed. I was just wondering where this happened. If he was so close, the decision to drive would have been mind-bogglingly stupid.

I think many people, when impaired, think, "It's just down the road. I'll be fine. What are the chances that something bad will happen?"

 

[Dback Jon]

I think many people, when impaired, think, "It's just down the road. I'll be fine. What are the chances that something bad will happen?"

indeed

 

[TJ]

I think many people, when impaired, think, "It's just down the road. I'll be fine. What are the chances that something bad will happen?"

100%. Or they say something like, "I only had two beers. I'm not THAT drunk."

When in doubt, call for a ride or sleep at your friend's house.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I can't imagine going to a bar and not drinking...Drunk people are usually twice as annoying when you don't have a decent buzz yourself

In the Uber-age... Driving drunk is just 100% stupid.

Not that it wasn't pre-Uber.

Uber must've gotten too expensive for Keim boozing with people he should not be boozing with at Steak 44 and City Hall 6 nights a week.

He's a clown who needs to be fired yesterday.

 

[gimpy]

Have you ever tried to convince someone who is intoxicated not to drive? .

 

[ARZCardinals]

Have you ever tried to convince someone who is intoxicated not to drive? .

Yea say $10.000 and 16 hours in jail

Seems to work