Article: Lutui Has No Contract Leverage

[joeshmo]

2. This past year, Deuce did not play up to predraft expectations.

Coaches think other wise. Word is they thought he was the most consistent guy on the OL last year. Wells being the most inconsistent.

 

[Duckjake]

Coaches think other wise. Word is they thought he was the most consistent guy on the OL last year. Wells being the most inconsistent.

One of the most effective offenses in Cardinal history, over 100 yards rushing in 8 of the last 11 games and the first rushing average over 4 since 2002 and only the second time in over 15 years, Warner was sacked only 24 times in 513 pass attempts and people are saying our offensive linemen didn't play well?

The only time (2008-2009) in the last 25 years we had consistency with our offensive line and we won 23 games and scored 934 points!

Gandy,Wells,Sendlein,Latui and Brown and even Bridges did well and they deserve props for the ride we've taken the last two years.

 

[joeshmo]

Here is where I see the problem. His agent inst exactly a big name in the business. Lutui just might be his biggest client ever. He is a Hawaiian guy and pretty much has nothing but Samoans on his roster. Just to show how small time this guy is his second best client might be Aaron Fransisco.

Anyways this agent might be giving Lutui some bad advice because the agent has a chance to finally make a name for himself with a large contract. The agent has nothing to loss, if it works great, if it doesn't, he has the same lower end clientele that he had before.

That is my speculation anyways.

 

[vinnymac]

Here is where I see the problem. His agent inst exactly a big name in the business. Lutui just might be his biggest client ever. He is a Hawaiian guy and pretty much has nothing but Samoans on his roster. Just to show how small time this guy is his second best client might be Aaron Fransisco.

Anyways this agent might be giving Lutui some bad advice because the agent has a chance to finally make a name for himself with a large contract. The agent has nothing to loss, if it works great, if it doesn't, he has the same lower end clientele that he had before.

That is my speculation anyways.

That is a bad move on the agen half. When your client is a restricted free agent that hasn't hasn't really done anything, then you sign the tender offer & wait until the next season to get paid. Duece's agent has to know he has no leverage. Everybody knows if you have no leverage you can't deal. My advice to Lutui is to sign the offer & quit having big eyes for the fat contract like you seen that your departed team mates have gotten. Show the NFL what you are made of & then seek that contract next season.

 

[Duckjake]

That is a bad move on the agent's behalf. When your client is a restricted free agent that hasn't hasn't really done anything, then you sign the tender offer & wait until the next season to get paid. Duece's agent has to know he has no leverage. Everybody knows if you have no leverage you can't deal. My advice to Lutui is to sign the offer & quit having big eyes for the fat contract like you seen that your departed team mates have gotten. Show the NFL what you are made of & then seek that contract next season.

People here keep saying our guys "haven't done anything" or "think they're worth a lot more than they really are" and then the guy goes and signs a huge contract.

Antonio Smith $15 million for 2009
Leonard Davis $23 million for '07 & '08
Calvin Pace $22 million for '08 & '09
Rolle 20+ million guaranteed
Dansby same thing
Boldin gets what $25 million from the Ravens?

Not bad for guys who had "never done anything" or greatly over estimated their value.

However, I do agree that holding out on a RFA tender is dumb. What can he possibly accomplish?

 

[Bobcat]

It is time for Matt to stand-up and tell Duce and get his Butt in camp and sign his tendered contract. Matt show us some leadership...!!!


BOBCAT

 

[ReddBird]

I like Deuce. I think he just wanted to avoid as much of camp as possible and this was his excuse.

 

[TigToad]

... and going back in time, I would not have given any of those guys the money they received. I might have gone there for Q, but he's an injury risk and he burnt the bridge in Arizona by going all-out contract wise 3 years out. Davis, Smith and Pace are all horribly overpaid. Good teams don't overpay consistantly, especially expecting us to be back in a cap-era shortly.

People here keep saying our guys "haven't done anything" or "think they're worth a lot more than they really are" and then the guy goes and signs a huge contract.

Antonio Smith $15 million for 2009
Leonard Davis $23 million for '07 & '08
Calvin Pace $22 million for '08 & '09
Rolle 20+ million guaranteed
Dansby same thing
Boldin gets what $25 million from the Ravens?

Not bad for guys who had "never done anything" or greatly over estimated their value.

However, I do agree that holding out on a RFA tender is dumb. What can he possibly accomplish?

 

[Duckjake]

... and going back in time, I would not have given any of those guys the money they received. I might have gone there for Q, but he's an injury risk and he burnt the bridge in Arizona by going all-out contract wise 3 years out. Davis, Smith and Pace are all horribly overpaid. Good teams don't overpay consistantly, especially expecting us to be back in a cap-era shortly.

Good teams don't overpay? Weren't the Jets in the NFC Championship game last year? Didn't the Giants win a Super Bowl a couple of years ago. The Cowboys made the playoffs last year as well, the Texans had their best record in franchise history last season and the Cards went to the Super Bowl with 3 of the guys you claim were overpaid. Look at how much money the key players for the Colts make. Check out the signing bonuses the Patriots doled out in 2008.

Last year the 4 teams with the lowest payrolls went 1-15, 4-12, 3-13, 5-11.

Every year players with new contracts make more money than players did the year before. DRC made twice as much money in 2009 as Adrian Wilson did in 2008 for example. So how do we really know when a guy is overpaid?

 

[Buckybird]

... and going back in time, I would not have given any of those guys the money they received. I might have gone there for Q, but he's an injury risk and he burnt the bridge in Arizona by going all-out contract wise 3 years out. Davis, Smith and Pace are all horribly overpaid. Good teams don't overpay consistantly, especially expecting us to be back in a cap-era shortly.

Good teams find a way to keep most of the best of their own. I guess you want to see Breaston, Keith, R Wells, Deuce, Seindlein, Doucet & THT all leave after this season with Leinart, Levi, DD & Fitz staring possible free agency in the face also. The way the FO has operated on getting numerous deals done with players to me is a big concern to me considering how many 1 year deals & how few players we have locked up past the 2012 season.

BTW, not having a replacement for Dansby in the lineup & possible lingering back issues with Hayes is going to bite this team in the ass in 2010!!!

 

[Shane]

Good teams find a way to keep most of the best of their own. I guess you want to see Breaston, Keith, R Wells, Deuce, Seindlein, Doucet & THT all leave after this season with Leinart, Levi, DD & Fitz staring possible free agency in the face also. The way the FO has operated on getting numerous deals done with players to me is a big concern to me considering how many 1 year deals & how few players we have locked up past the 2012 season.

BTW, not having a replacement for Dansby in the lineup & possible lingering back issues with Hayes is going to bite this team in the ass in 2010!!!

We do have a replacement for Dansby. Nobody here has no clue if Hayes will be hurt again or not everyone is just panicking for the sake of doing so.

 

[Buckybird]

We do have a replacement for Dansby. Nobody here has no clue if Hayes will be hurt again or not everyone is just panicking for the sake of doing so.

Yeah a spare in Lenon & a rook, a drastic dropoff of the defensive captain & signal caller in my book Shane.

 

[Shane]

Yeah a spare in Lenon & a rook, a drastic dropoff of the defensive captain & signal caller in my book Shane.

Lenon yes. The rook we have no idea. It is the one position on the field where rookies VERY often come in and are good at it from the get go and perform at a high level. So no reason to panic as of yet. In fact I'm betting that the overall ranking of this D is no worse than last years.

 

[Duckjake]

Lenon yes. The rook we have no idea. It is the one position on the field where rookies VERY often come in and are good at it from the get go and perform at a high level. So no reason to panic as f yet. In fact I'm betting that the overall ranking of this D is no worse than last years.

I'm betting that if Porter plays well you'll be right. If he doesn't you'll be wrong.

I do still think that Dansby is horribly underrated by most on this board and that Lenon and Washington have some huge shoes to fill.

 

[Chopper0080]

Good teams don't overpay? Weren't the Jets in the NFC Championship game last year? Didn't the Giants win a Super Bowl a couple of years ago. The Cowboys made the playoffs last year as well, the Texans had their best record in franchise history last season and the Cards went to the Super Bowl with 3 of the guys you claim were overpaid. Look at how much money the key players for the Colts make. Check out the signing bonuses the Patriots doled out in 2008.

Last year the 4 teams with the lowest payrolls went 1-15, 4-12, 3-13, 5-11.

Every year players with new contracts make more money than players did the year before. DRC made twice as much money in 2009 as Adrian Wilson did in 2008 for example. So how do we really know when a guy is overpaid?

I believe that this is a key concept that the Cardinals front office fails to recognize. People make a stink about Dansby's contract demands, but fail to understand that we had a chance to sign him to a deal similar to what Calvin Pace got two years ago. Pace got a big deal that was understandably not matched. Karlos Dansby, a much better player, states that he wants a deal on par with what Pace got, and Graves twiddles his thumbs. At the time it seemed like a big deal, but now that contract would have been a steal. The Cardinals fail to recognize that contracts get bigger, and your superstars will only cost your more down the line. I know Dockett was paying attention to Haynesworth's deal last year, and Pepper's deal this year. Here is a heads up to Graves, DD isn't getting any cheaper, and if he smells free agency next year, he is gone.

 

[joeshmo]

Good teams don't overpay? Weren't the Jets in the NFC Championship game last year? Didn't the Giants win a Super Bowl a couple of years ago. The Cowboys made the playoffs last year as well, the Texans had their best record in franchise history last season and the Cards went to the Super Bowl with 3 of the guys you claim were overpaid. Look at how much money the key players for the Colts make. Check out the signing bonuses the Patriots doled out in 2008.

Last year the 4 teams with the lowest payrolls went 1-15, 4-12, 3-13, 5-11.

Just so you the opposite is also true in 2008 the bottom 4 salary teams had records of 12-4, 11-5, 11-5, 2-14. Cowboys last year were in the bottom 5 salaries and as you stated they made the playoffs. The year the Giants won the super bowl they spent the least amount of salary in the NFL. The Giants go and spend like crazy last year spending more then any other team and the play 500 ball and don't make the playoffs. Raiders spent the most in 2008 where were they at.

Trust I have done it many times, there is no correlation to how much a team spends in a given year and their success. The only correlation I have ever been able to find is consistent spending over a period of time. Teams have never won by overspending in one season. Again, it is about spending consistently over a period of time. Case in point, come of the best teams in the NFL are in the top 10 salaries spent over the last three years - Cards, Pitt, Jets, Saints, Cowboys, Chargers, Dolphins. The only anomalies are the Redskins, Bears, and Bills. But then again that correlation only goes so far considering the Colts, Ravens, and Pats are all in the bottom 10 in spending the last three years. So the case can be made in those cases that as long as you spend money on a select few all stars, have good coaching, and good drafts to surround the all stars you can also win without overpaying. Two different formulas and two great arguments and examples for each.

 

[joeshmo]

I believe that this is a key concept that the Cardinals front office fails to recognize. People make a stink about Dansby's contract demands, but fail to understand that we had a chance to sign him to a deal similar to what Calvin Pace got two years ago. Pace got a big deal that was understandably not matched. Karlos Dansby, a much better player, states that he wants a deal on par with what Pace got, and Graves twiddles his thumbs.

Actually no he did not. Graves did offer a deal very close the what Pace got in terms of both guaranteed and total value, but if you remember Dansby fired his agent at that very same time. Dansby was never going to sign at that point in time, he knew he was going to make over 15 mill guaranteed playing on the franchise tag then cash in during the uncapped year where he was apart of the very small 1% of free agents available that was actually worth spending money on. No matter what we did Dansby was going to be a free agent, dude played the business side of the game masterfully.

The Cardinals fail to recognize that contracts get bigger, and your superstars will only cost your more down the line.

People already forget Dockett and Boldin being re-signed to below market deals, deals that were so low they complain about them a year later?

I know Dockett was paying attention to Haynesworth's deal last year, and Pepper's deal this year. Here is a heads up to Graves, DD isn't getting any cheaper, and if he smells free agency next year, he is gone.

Actually although Dockett mentioned Haynesworth he mentioned it in a joking manner. He even stated as much in later interviews, he knows he isn't getting that kind of bank. Actions speak louder then words, and Dockett's agent Drew's actions also speak to this because their last two offers didn't even come close to what Haynesworth is making and it didn't rise after Peppers got his deal. So bringing up the Haynesworth and Peppers card just doesn't hold water. Although I do think this year is the year to extent Dockett considering the massive amounts of money we are saving this year. And knowing the last two offers that Drew has offered I can safely say we should have started negotiating right away because they were very fair starting points to start negotiations in this case. I don't know anything past the two offers but I am highly suspicious that this might be happening as we speak, just my own speculation though, based on the last offer and Docketts attitude as of late.

 

[Duckjake]

Just so you the opposite is also true in 2008 the bottom 4 salary teams had records of 12-4, 11-5, 11-5, 2-14. Cowboys last year were in the bottom 5 salaries and as you stated they made the playoffs. The year the Giants won the super bowl they spent the least amount of salary in the NFL. The Giants go and spend like crazy last year spending more then any other team and the play 500 ball and don't make the playoffs. Raiders spent the most in 2008 where were they at.

Trust I have done it many times, there is no correlation to how much a team spends in a given year and their success. The only correlation I have ever been able to find is consistent spending over a period of time. Teams have never won by overspending in one season. Again, it is about spending consistently over a period of time. Case in point, come of the best teams in the NFL are in the top 10 salaries spent over the last three years - Cards, Pitt, Jets, Saints, Cowboys, Chargers, Dolphins. The only anomalies are the Redskins, Bears, and Bills. But then again that correlation only goes so far considering the Colts, Ravens, and Pats are all in the bottom 10 in spending the last three years. So the case can be made in those cases that as long as you spend money on a select few all stars, have good coaching, and good drafts to surround the all stars you can also win without overpaying. Two different formulas and two great arguments and examples for each.

I knew that but it didn't fit into my take so like any good fan I lied with statistics.

You can't really use total payroll to prove anything anyway. At least not the source I use which is the USA today website. For example in 2008 the Colts "paid" Freeney $15 million but his "payroll" was only $752,000. Reggie Wayne was "paid" $12.5 million but his "payroll" was only $4.6 million. Sanders is shown getting around $15 million but his "payroll" is only $7 million. Add in all the bonuses and the Colts are top 10 in "pay" for 2008.

I think the Patriots also had about $30 million in bonuses that doesn't show as salary. Didn't see that much discrepancy in the Raiders payroll.

Just how are these "salaries" figured?

 

[Duckjake]

as long as you spend money on a select few all stars

Just noticed that 7 of the 10 "so called" highest paid players for Arizona last season won't be on the team this fall.

Did the Cards really pay Elton Brown over $4.5 million last year?

 

[joeshmo]

I knew that but it didn't fit into my take so like any good fan I lied with statistics.

You can't really use total payroll to prove anything anyway. At least not the source I use which is the USA today website. For example in 2008 the Colts "paid" Freeney $15 million but his "payroll" was only $752,000. Reggie Wayne was "paid" $12.5 million but his "payroll" was only $4.6 million. Sanders is shown getting around $15 million but his "payroll" is only $7 million. Add in all the bonuses and the Colts are top 10 in "pay" for 2008.

I think the Patriots also had about $30 million in bonuses that doesn't show as salary. Didn't see that much discrepancy in the Raiders payroll.

Just how are these "salaries" figured?

It all depends on how the team paid out the bonus. It might say 15 mill in signing bonus which is paid out all in one year normally and spread out over the life of the contract for cap purposes. But teams have been doing payment plans or deferred payments on signing bonuses these days. Weird accounting going on in the NFL since the last new CBA.

 

[JeffGollin]

Coaches think other wise. Word is they thought he was the most consistent guy on the OL last year. Wells being the most inconsistent.

Names and specific comments, please.

Joe - Your comments are usually pretty credible, but I heard equally valid (though not-very-specific) allusions by the media (I can't remember who - most likely either Urban, Somers or Wolfley) that gave the impression that the Cardinal coaches were less-than-thrilled by Deuce's performance last season.

So, for now, I'm left with your nonspecific comments/unnamed sources vs. my nonspecific comments/unnamed sources.

 

[JeffGollin]

I do still think that Dansby is horribly underrated by most on this board and that Lenon and Washington have some huge shoes to fill.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I wanted use the above comment to point out something I noticed last night watching NFL Net:

Jamie Dukes and Warren Sapp singled out Boldin as the offensive pickup in the NFL having the biggest impact on his new team and Dansby as the defensive pickup having the biggest impact on his new team.

When both were Cardinals, I don't recall either Q or Karlos receiving that kind of love from the national media.

 

[joeshmo]

Names and specific comments, please.

Joe - Your comments are usually pretty credible, but I heard equally valid (though not-very-specific) allusions by the media (I can't remember who - most likely either Urban, Somers or Wolfley) that gave the impression that the Cardinal coaches were less-than-thrilled by Deuce's performance last season.

So, for now, I'm left with your nonspecific comments/unnamed sources vs. my nonspecific comments/unnamed sources.

"Cut down penalties and became more consistent"

"The Cardinals tendered right guard Deuce Lutui to a second-round choice. Lutui remains unsigned, but he played well last season and projects as a likely starter in 2010."

Both from Sando's blog, was also on his all NFC West Team at RG.

I am also not the only one on this board to have read or heard on the radio how the Cards coaches thought the right side of the OL played consistent and well last year.

It was either Wiz or Grimm interview that was asked about the OL and they specifically stated that they though the most consistent OL started at Levi and moved towards Lyle, right to left.

 

[Duckjake]

It all depends on how the team paid out the bonus. It might say 15 mill in signing bonus which is paid out all in one year normally and spread out over the life of the contract for cap purposes. But teams have been doing payment plans or deferred payments on signing bonuses these days. Weird accounting going on in the NFL since the last new CBA.

Just how does USA today calculate "payroll"?

For example in 2008 they show the following:

Freeney: Base Salary $750k Signing Bonus $15 million, other bonus 2400 Total Salary $752,400

Dallas Clark: $605k base $11 million Signing Bonus, $45k other bonus Total Salary $11,650,000.

It doesn't make sense to me.