Ayton paid $10,000/month in college

[TJ]

FBI wise yes, NCAA wise no. THe NCAA is not a court of law, they don't start at you're innocent we'll prove you guilty they start at you're guilty, prove your innocent. That's why everyone hates NCAA investigations it's damn near impossible to get off without penalty.

If any of what's on that tape from yesterday is true, Ayton was ineligible, he was being paid and his mom had a relationship with an agent. If you follow that tape, Book knew he was ineligible and believed Miller was the guy paying him which would mean Miller knew he was ineligible. Knowingly playing an ineligible player is an NCAA violation and it's lack of IC. The same thing is alleged in the Yahoo story about them trying to get Bowen by offering to steer Alkins and Markkanen to Dawkins. Dawkins is mad because pasternack offered to steer him Lauri, but Dawkins says Lauri already had an agent. That was before he played a single game at Arizona. That's 2 full years where there is a distinct possibility the star player was ineligible, Arizona coaches knew it, and still played them.

Also people keep saying Miller is not arrested, what is he going to be arrested for? Book was arrested for accepting a bribe, Dawkins has never once said he paid Miller he's arguing the exact opposite, I never paid him and he still broke rules. Miller may have committed fraud of some sort and there may be tax implications if he was really paying Ayton, no idea, but it's not clear to me that the FBI was going to arrest Miller for anything Dawkins alleges. Unless Miller was paying Ayton but told the FBI he wasn't, it's not clear to me he committed a crime. He possibly broke NCAA rules, but crime, I don't see it yet.

Tax evasion? Bribery? Lying to to the FBI? There are a number of things that the FBI could've nailed Miller for and didn't. A two-year investigation that included intense investigation into all compliance logs, financial records, and other stuff.

From the NCAA standpoint, Arizona is going to get nailed; but unlike players from USC, Kansas and others, none were deemed ineligible.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ironically he put together his best class after the investigation broke and Book was arrested.

Miller can recruit for sure. It would take a lot for Arizona to fire him now. However, I have no doubt Arizona would be able to recruit another top coach to replace him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Tax evasion? Bribery? Lying to to the FBI? There are a number of things that the FBI could've nailed Miller for and didn't. A two-year investigation that included intense investigation into all compliance logs, financial records, and other stuff.

From the NCAA standpoint, Arizona is going to get nailed; but unlike players from USC, Kansas and others, none were deemed ineligible.

What bribery? Miller didn't take any money and the kids he was allegedly paying were not being bribed. Tax evasion, if Miller was PAYING kids he's not supposed to pay taxes on it they are, or their parents or handlers etc. If he got money from Nike to pay them I don't know if that's a tax issue for him, would be for Nike. The lying to the FBI stuff is what I mentioned that's the only crime I see here that he could possibly be in jail for and I have no idea what he told the FBI. Hell for all we know they asked and he said yes I paid players and just assumed the FBI was never going to make that public. Him paying players was completely contrary to the FBI story that schools were being defrauded, if the head coach knew it wasn't fraud so if a head coach admitted to them he was involved, why would the FBI reveal that?

USC declared the kid ineligible not the NCAA, Kansas it came after a federal trial. My guess is there's just as much evidence DeSousa got paid as that Ayton did but Desousa was still in college so he got suspended. If that trial had been before Alkins' soph year my guess is he wouldn't have played, if Ayton had stayed in school my guess is he wouldn't have played. DeSousa was suspended because it came out in a federal trial.

 

[Mainstreet]

There are a lot of reasons to do it now. The longer you keep him employed the more scandals he's link to can surface and make UofA look worse since he's still on the payroll. This keeps getting uglier and uglier but Miller has been able to avoid any repercussions so far. It seems like UofA is waiting for the NCAA to make a move before they fire him.

What needs to happen or what needs to be revealed before they fire him is a better question, I think.

I think the NCAA will do something but if that's enough, I don't know. If the players were put under oath and testified, it might be different. Maybe they have. I haven't followed the matter closely.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Maybe in the court of public opinion but not in the legal sense. The tape is a discussion between Book and Dawkins talking about Miller. No proof of Miller actually giving Ayton or his people has been discovered so Miller is innocent until proven guilty. Now we know what Book was offering to get his plea deal, Miller. Wingo & Golic made a good point this morning in that unless someone goes to jail (a coach) this will not deter big programs from paying players. They pointed out that if it takes all this just to get Miller fired then big time coaches will conduct business as usual.

Also, if UA fires Miller now and he gets cleared somehow later, he could sue for wrongful termination unless the school justifies it due to performance. Even if Miller gets fired who would want the job and deal with the fallout?

Like @Russ Smith stated, it doesnt have to be legally. Miller looks guilty as hell, and that's all it takes. I'm wondering if the Arizona Board of Regents can/will step in if the U of A doesnt do anything.

 

[Dan H]

I feel like they should just let this stuff happen out in the open. Who does it hurt?

 

[overseascardfan]

Like @Russ Smith stated, it doesnt have to be legally. Miller looks guilty as hell, and that's all it takes. I'm wondering if the Arizona Board of Regents can/will step in if the U of A doesnt do anything.

What you don’t understand is that Miller a few months ago signed paperwork for ABORs that states if he is LEGALLY found guilty of any way he forfeits or pays back a huge chunk of his salary. So UA and ABORs won’t do anything until he is found guilty because then they will recoup most of his salary this year, instead of firing him and buying out his contract.

 

[Mainstreet]

What you don’t understand is that Miller a few months ago signed paperwork for ABORs that states if he is LEGALLY found guilty of any way he forfeits or pays back a huge chunk of his salary. So UA and ABORs won’t do anything until he is found guilty because then they will recoup most of his salary this year, instead of firing him and buying out his contract.

So if it's up to the courts there are a lot of coaches that won't be fired.

 

[Russ Smith]

I feel like they should just let this stuff happen out in the open. Who does it hurt?

I somewhat agree but until they do it's like speeding tickets. Everyone speeds, when you get caught pay the fine or do traffic school, don't complain you're being picked on, insist you're innocent, and stonewall. All the other schools involved suspended kids they had reason think were involved, ARizona didn't, if it turns out Miller did something, he's going to be held to a higher standard by the NCAA because they didn't suspend anybody.

 

[Russ Smith]

What you don’t understand is that Miller a few months ago signed paperwork for ABORs that states if he is LEGALLY found guilty of any way he forfeits or pays back a huge chunk of his salary. So UA and ABORs won’t do anything until he is found guilty because then they will recoup most of his salary this year, instead of firing him and buying out his contract.

Guilty of what? NCAA violations aren't laws. I don't know what he signed but if he signed something that says legally then yeah they will pay him if they fire him. If he signed something that said I didn't pay anyone or violate any NCAA rules, then he's going to lose his money if that was a lie. Again I don't know but all of a sudden Jason "nothing to see here" Scheer is reporting that Arizona didn't know about these tapes. So it's pretty clear Miller either knew and didn't tell them or Miller didn't know Book was on tape talking about all this stuff.

If Miller broke rules that alone violates his contract, one of the basic premises of teh FBI case is coaches violated their "honest services" clause in their contract beecause they were bribed to violate rules by Dawkins. So if he broke rules, he already violated his contract.

Forgot to add are we sure they can't just fire him and then go after him for the money later if it comes out in court somehow he broke the laws he signed he hadn't? I know Arizona is waiting on Phelps for his contract to expire rather than firing him but that's allegedly because they don't want legal expenses if he sues them for something. They are pretty sure he did what he's accused of, helping to arrange to have grades changed or a test taken for Shareef O'Neal so he could qualify at Arizona. That's why UCLA made Shareef wait months to be cleared he had to make up the class(es) that Phelps apparently arranged cheating with. But I suspect that's largely a privacy issue, Arizona knows they can't fire Phelps and then publicly state there was cheating involved because it would violate Shareefs' privacy.

 

[Southpaw]

They need to allow these kids to get paid already. Everyone is making a ton of money except the actual athletes. Some of them are getting paid but they aren't seeing the same amount of money as others because it's harder to sneak 6 or 7 figure sums to them.

I don't think there should be an issue with 3rd parties like shoe companies paying kids. Why can't they become spokesman for that brand while in college? I doubt a university would care if a student mathlete endorsed a calculator brand, of course they'd try to take a cut for themselves but the regulations on "student athletes" are ridiculous.

ummm.................

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

If true, for Ayton's sake, I hope he reported the income on his taxes or he is screwed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If true, for Ayton's sake, I hope he reported the income on his taxes or he is screwed.

Bah like every other millionaire he’ll pay back taxes and penalties and skate.

 

[Russ Smith]

If true, for Ayton's sake, I hope he reported the income on his taxes or he is screwed.

Mayo didn't and never got in federal trouble. I think the IRS just calls these guys up and says ok we read the newspaper, here's a figure, you pay it and we're cool and it never goes public.

I also think a 19 year old kid wasn't their primary concern so they probably don't care. his mom should do the same thing if this is true.

If this is true, Ayton lied to the FBI but again I don't think a 19 year old kid being scared and lying is a huge surprise and I would hope the FBI wouldn't make that big of a deal if it's true.

 

[overseascardfan]

Guilty of what? NCAA violations aren't laws. I don't know what he signed but if he signed something that says legally then yeah they will pay him if they fire him. If he signed something that said I didn't pay anyone or violate any NCAA rules, then he's going to lose his money if that was a lie. Again I don't know but all of a sudden Jason "nothing to see here" Scheer is reporting that Arizona didn't know about these tapes. So it's pretty clear Miller either knew and didn't tell them or Miller didn't know Book was on tape talking about all this stuff.

If Miller broke rules that alone violates his contract, one of the basic premises of teh FBI case is coaches violated their "honest services" clause in their contract beecause they were bribed to violate rules by Dawkins. So if he broke rules, he already violated his contract.

Forgot to add are we sure they can't just fire him and then go after him for the money later if it comes out in court somehow he broke the laws he signed he hadn't? I know Arizona is waiting on Phelps for his contract to expire rather than firing him but that's allegedly because they don't want legal expenses if he sues them for something. They are pretty sure he did what he's accused of, helping to arrange to have grades changed or a test taken for Shareef O'Neal so he could qualify at Arizona. That's why UCLA made Shareef wait months to be cleared he had to make up the class(es) that Phelps apparently arranged cheating with. But I suspect that's largely a privacy issue, Arizona knows they can't fire Phelps and then publicly state there was cheating involved because it would violate Shareefs' privacy.

Guilty of paying players or worse.

 

[overseascardfan]

So if it's up to the courts there are a lot of coaches that won't be fired.

Big time coaches won’t, they’re smart enough to not be involved directly. Hell, there’s no physical evidence to corroborate Book’s testimony against Miller. So unless UA gets tired of the speculation, Miller ain’t going anywhere. Again, I now think this is going to end with the guys taking their plea deals and doing their time. The NCAA is not going to open this can of worms according to Russ since they aren’t breaking any legal laws.

 

[TJ]

Like @Russ Smith stated, it doesnt have to be legally. Miller looks guilty as hell, and that's all it takes. I'm wondering if the Arizona Board of Regents can/will step in if the U of A doesnt do anything.

ABOR doesn’t have authority to do anything. They can recommend, but can’t terminate contracts.

I will say: the best part of the trial was hearing that an ASU assistant tried to get involved and cheat but was turned away because ASU wasn’t worthy enough.

 

[GatorAZ]

Guilty of what? NCAA violations aren't laws. I don't know what he signed but if he signed something that says legally then yeah they will pay him if they fire him. If he signed something that said I didn't pay anyone or violate any NCAA rules, then he's going to lose his money if that was a lie. Again I don't know but all of a sudden Jason "nothing to see here" Scheer is reporting that Arizona didn't know about these tapes. So it's pretty clear Miller either knew and didn't tell them or Miller didn't know Book was on tape talking about all this stuff.

If Miller broke rules that alone violates his contract, one of the basic premises of teh FBI case is coaches violated their "honest services" clause in their contract beecause they were bribed to violate rules by Dawkins. So if he broke rules, he already violated his contract.

Forgot to add are we sure they can't just fire him and then go after him for the money later if it comes out in court somehow he broke the laws he signed he hadn't? I know Arizona is waiting on Phelps for his contract to expire rather than firing him but that's allegedly because they don't want legal expenses if he sues them for something. They are pretty sure he did what he's accused of, helping to arrange to have grades changed or a test taken for Shareef O'Neal so he could qualify at Arizona. That's why UCLA made Shareef wait months to be cleared he had to make up the class(es) that Phelps apparently arranged cheating with. But I suspect that's largely a privacy issue, Arizona knows they can't fire Phelps and then publicly state there was cheating involved because it would violate Shareefs' privacy.

Miller isn’t paying kids out of his own pocket. If money was going to players from an Arizona source it would be from boosters like football programs do. Now Miller could know about it but he’s not going to the bank with a briefcase and withdrawing stacks to give to teenagers.

 

[Russ Smith]

Miller isn’t paying kids out of his own pocket. If money was going to players from an Arizona source it would be from boosters like football programs do. Now Miller could know about it but he’s not going to the bank with a briefcase and withdrawing stacks to give to teenagers.

100% agree but again that goes to my point what laws is he breaking? Is it against the law for Nike to give Sean Miller 100K to buy Ayton to Arizona and then create a phony invoice to explain the 100K, yes. Is it against the law for Miller to give said money to Ayton 10K a month for 10 months, I honestly don't know but I'm not sure why it would be. Maybe conspiracy because Nike is committing fraud and Miller is involved in the fraud?

I think some of the stuff with Book it was almost clear that he was getting money from Dawkins to pay back money he'd paid out himself. I suspect when Dawkins and Book say Miller is handling something himself, they mean making the arrangement. With Ayton he said fronting, I assume that meant something like we have a deal to pay Ayton 100K. We're not giving it to him all at once it's monthly and Miller fronted the first couple of payments, presumably from Nike, an agent etc.

They didn't play the Schlabach tape today, I still think it's the one from yesterday and the 100K is 10 a month for 10 months sort of thing. If there was a tape like that it wouldn't have necessarily been important in this trial, they weren't trying Miller they were trying Dawkins. Nobody ever said Dawkins paid Miller so there's no angle where the government would want to play that tape to help their case. In fact one of the funnier things with Scheer is he kept saying things like the government didn't allow such and such to be entered today because it's not real. In at least 2 cases he completely missed the point, the government in discovery and presented evidence THEY wanted to use in court. and then not only didn't use it, but filed motions to stop the defense from using it, why, not because it wasn't true as Scheer was saying it was THEIR evidence, it was because the way the case was going the government realized that evidence would actually HURT their case. So they were filing motions to block their own evidence.

It just gets harder and harder to believe there was no fire there. I mean Book and Dawkins on tape, not knowing anybody is listening, talking about how it was going to cost 200K to get Bol Bol. And Bol was going to Arizona until the FBI case broke, isn't the obvious conclusion that Arizona was willing to pay Bol too? This wasn't like the Dawkins and Augustine screwing over Gatto with the Little stuff, that was pretty clear they invented a bidding war to get Gatto to pay money for Little that they could pocket. And why did they use Arizona as the other team, because that was the most believable team they could think of when telling Gatto 150K for Little.

 

[Russ Smith]

Big time coaches won’t, they’re smart enough to not be involved directly. Hell, there’s no physical evidence to corroborate Book’s testimony against Miller. So unless UA gets tired of the speculation, Miller ain’t going anywhere. Again, I now think this is going to end with the guys taking their plea deals and doing their time. The NCAA is not going to open this can of worms according to Russ since they aren’t breaking any legal laws.

At a certain point it gets to how can the NCAA not do something though? Look at how much bad PR they got for not slamming UNC. I get the reason, UNC proved that non athletes took the phony classes too, it didn't matter that records showed that trend started much later and got much worse implying that at some point the guy Walden working for Roy figured out someone was going to catch on to the whole AFAM thing, so they started telling regular students to take the classes so they could say see not extra benefits. The NCAA let them off and everyone is still mad.

now you have all this smoke about Arizona, and LSU. At some point the NCAA is going to say look we have to do something. My guess is those 2, Kansas, are all going to get some sort of hit and as recently as a week ago I didn't think that to be true. But the stuff about Book on tape with no idea anybody is listening talking about Miller paying players, that's just too much for the NCAA to look the other way at I think.

 

[Krangodnzr]

ABOR doesn’t have authority to do anything. They can recommend, but can’t terminate contracts.

I will say: the best part of the trial was hearing that an ASU assistant tried to get involved and cheat but was turned away because ASU wasn’t worthy enough.

Not yet, no.

 

[GatorAZ]

100% agree but again that goes to my point what laws is he breaking? Is it against the law for Nike to give Sean Miller 100K to buy Ayton to Arizona and then create a phony invoice to explain the 100K, yes. Is it against the law for Miller to give said money to Ayton 10K a month for 10 months, I honestly don't know but I'm not sure why it would be. Maybe conspiracy because Nike is committing fraud and Miller is involved in the fraud?

I think some of the stuff with Book it was almost clear that he was getting money from Dawkins to pay back money he'd paid out himself. I suspect when Dawkins and Book say Miller is handling something himself, they mean making the arrangement. With Ayton he said fronting, I assume that meant something like we have a deal to pay Ayton 100K. We're not giving it to him all at once it's monthly and Miller fronted the first couple of payments, presumably from Nike, an agent etc.

They didn't play the Schlabach tape today, I still think it's the one from yesterday and the 100K is 10 a month for 10 months sort of thing. If there was a tape like that it wouldn't have necessarily been important in this trial, they weren't trying Miller they were trying Dawkins. Nobody ever said Dawkins paid Miller so there's no angle where the government would want to play that tape to help their case. In fact one of the funnier things with Scheer is he kept saying things like the government didn't allow such and such to be entered today because it's not real. In at least 2 cases he completely missed the point, the government in discovery and presented evidence THEY wanted to use in court. and then not only didn't use it, but filed motions to stop the defense from using it, why, not because it wasn't true as Scheer was saying it was THEIR evidence, it was because the way the case was going the government realized that evidence would actually HURT their case. So they were filing motions to block their own evidence.

It just gets harder and harder to believe there was no fire there. I mean Book and Dawkins on tape, not knowing anybody is listening, talking about how it was going to cost 200K to get Bol Bol. And Bol was going to Arizona until the FBI case broke, isn't the obvious conclusion that Arizona was willing to pay Bol too? This wasn't like the Dawkins and Augustine screwing over Gatto with the Little stuff, that was pretty clear they invented a bidding war to get Gatto to pay money for Little that they could pocket. And why did they use Arizona as the other team, because that was the most believable team they could think of when telling Gatto 150K for Little.

Sounds like Bol was going to get his regardless of which Nike school. Bol, Little (not so much Little other than hearsay) and Quinerly were all involved in the scandal and all were eligible. You wonder the difference in evidence the NCAA has now vs then and what it means for their investigation.

 

[Russ Smith]

So I know all the boards have lawyers including this one but on BRO we have 2 guys who used to work on federal cases. One chimed in last night on why he thinks Sean Miller hasn't been charged with anything if they have this evidence. And to my delight, he agrees with what I've been sayign.

The case is fraud, the schools are being defrauding because money guys(Dawkins etc) are bribing coaches to help steer players to certain schools and agents and as a result the kids are actually ineligible which harms the school, and the coaches are violating terms of their contracts which harms the school. So the money guys are bribing and commiting fraud, the coaches are accepting bribes and committing fraud, and the schools are the victims. that's their case.

If they go after Sean Miller, they have to admit in open court that this guy is paying players, steering them to agents, and yet NOT being paid by anybody to do it. Dawkins, Sood, Code, clearly Adidas since he's nike, none of them are paying Sean Miller. Nike might be but only hey we want this kid here's 10K give it to him every month. So if they indict Miller it's only for fraud since he's neither taking a bribe or paying one(paying players is not considering bribery). It's debatable if it's even fraud since the school presumably knows kids are getting paid. So by indicting Sean Miller, they would blow up their entire case against the other guys by admitting it's not really bribery or fraud, here's a guy of his own free will breaking rules, not being paid to do it, case closed.

His thinking is quite simple, the case against the other guys is much stronger and thus more valuable to them than trying to bust Sean Miller for paying teenagers.

 

[DWKB]

What is UofA MBB worried about by keeping Miller on and letting him continue to buy recruiting classes, vacating those second round NCAA loses?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

UofA officially under NCAA investigation