Ayton sorta sucks

[Mainstreet]

I'm not sure what all he posted has to do with Ayton. Do we know Ayton isn't watching wins more than his stats? Considering the Suns have been winning and he's not matching his season stats, maybe he's sacrificing some for the team. He's definitely not stat padding. We're not in the huddle with Monty to know the plan.

The Suns have been rattling off win after win without a true power player also. Is the answer really to slow things down and force one into the lineup? I guess it makes us a more balanced team, if it were 1995.

Only with added experience will we find out what Ayton can do as a player.

I don't think he can be fairly graded by individual game performances. That's why I try not to get to high or low on him after a game. It's better to look at trends such as his improvement from season to season. I know fans what him to be farther along, so do I, but we will have to be patient.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The problem is, most people tend to believe the most negative reason. I don't know if it's human nature or what, but especially in 2020, that seems to be the way everyone is going. 7 games straight, I believe this is the longest win streak in Booker's CAREER and all anybody can do is fault Ayton. Just a weird thing to be concentrating on.

all anybody's doing is faulting Ayton? First, you realize you're in an Ayton thread, right? The focus of the thread is Ayton and in the bubble he's been pretty disappointing for a multitude of reasons. Second, you really can't help yourself just over-exaggerate and project BS on to others, can you? Again, it's possible to have multiple thoughts about one subject at a time, be elated with Book, Cam, Rubio, Saric, even Frank today... and be down on Ayton. If you don't want to focus on Ayton, no one's forcing you to come in the thread and do so.

 

[Chaplin]

all anybody's doing is faulting Ayton? First, you realize you're in an Ayton thread, right? The focus of the thread is Ayton and in the bubble he's been pretty disappointing for a multitude of reasons. Second, you really can't help yourself just over-exaggerate and project BS on to others, can you? Again, it's possible to have multiple thoughts about one subject at a time, be elated with Book, Cam, Rubio, Saric, even Frank today... and be down on Ayton. If you don't want to focus on Ayton, no one's forcing you to come in the thread and do so.

Just stop responding to me. All you want to do is attack, attack, attack! Be the thread police with someone else.

 

[BC867]

I look for upward trends in young players especially big men.

Apparently you want a finished product at age 22.

C'mon, Mainstreet. That's going from one extreme to the other.
Age has nothing to do with it.

I'm saying there is more to a team's or player's contribution
than stats. Especially when there is a drop in Ayton's stats
when his participation as our #1 pick means the most.

And the eye test. A Center who shies away from contact
and plays 20+ feet from the basket, with a non-power
Power Forward playing alongside him.

That is a lot more important than numbers on a sheet.

 

[Bufalay]

David Robinson? More like Al Jefferson.

 

[Cheesebeef]

David Robinson? More like Al Jefferson.

this is my fear. Stat stuffer who can’t be a reliable #2 superstar on a perennial title contender but will be paid like one, taking up too much of the cap, which will limit us from ever getting that guy Booker needs as his partner in crime.

 

[AZCrazy]

As long as you continue to add literal teenagers to your team of professionals, you're going to usually have to wait three to five years for a finished product. In the heyday of the NBA, Ayton would still be in college, not bizarrely going into his 3rd year in the NBA. Everyone's just chasing quick dollars, not real success. Ayton will be a big piece on the team, but won't ever be its leader.

 

[1Sun]

As long as you continue to add literal teenagers to your team of professionals, you're going to usually have to wait three to five years for a finished product. In the heyday of the NBA, Ayton would still be in college, not bizarrely going into his 3rd year in the NBA. Everyone's just chasing quick dollars, not real success. Ayton will be a big piece on the team, but won't ever be its leader.

I'd settle for him staying clean, sober and motivated.

 

[JCSunsfan]

this is my fear. Stat stuffer who can’t be a reliable #2 superstar on a perennial title contender but will be paid like one, taking up too much of the cap, which will limit us from ever getting that guy Booker needs as his partner in crime.

Ayton? He is more than that already. His defensive presence is significant right now.

Robert Parrish. I can see that kind of game in him. Good teams need that.

 

[Phrazbit]

this is my fear. Stat stuffer who can’t be a reliable #2 superstar on a perennial title contender but will be paid like one, taking up too much of the cap, which will limit us from ever getting that guy Booker needs as his partner in crime.

I don't see it.

It is hard to quantify Ayton. I was as revolted as anyone by yet another bone headed failing when he missed his testing window... but at the same time, we were down 15 before he got on the court, once he entered the game we totally obliterated OKC.

There is nothing empty about Ayton's stats. He makes a huge impact that baseline stats don't do enough to quantify. He absolutely has an all-nba impact on the outcome of games, our splits when he is on and off the court are nuts. What frustrates is that he is THAT good while seemingly giving somewhere between half and three quarters of a poo. If he gave an entire poo he would become an all-time great.

 

[Covert Rain]

Ayton still has some growing up to do. The test issue proves that. Also, there are times he just doesn't look aggressive. Overall though? He is a young player with some of the best overall stats at his position in the NBA. His presence in the middle (i.e. altering shots) doesn't show up on the stat sheet. We have not had that in the front court for some time now (especially at center).

It's OK to have some concerns about him. Especially, when it comes to his head. We can't expect him right now to be at the top of his game although we all want to see it. We all want him to be that dominant player right in and night out. It's like sometimes he doesn't know how dominant he can be. There is no chip on his shoulder to want to kill guys down low.

I think overall we should be excited about where he is but if he is the same player in 2 years? There is going to be much more disappointment.

 

[1Sun]

Ayton still has some growing up to do. The test issue proves that. Also, there are times he just doesn't look aggressive. Overall though? He is a young player with some of the best overall stats at his position in the NBA. His presence in the middle (i.e. altering shots) doesn't show up on the stat sheet. We have not had that in the front court for some time now (especially at center).

It's OK to have some concerns about him. Especially, when it comes to his head. We can't expect him right now to be at the top of his game although we all want to see it. We all want him to be that dominant player right in and night out. It's like sometimes he doesn't know how dominant he can be. There is no chip on his shoulder to want to kill guys down low.

I think overall we should be excited about where he is but if he is the same player in 2 years? There is going to be much more disappointment.

In my opinion, it comes down to this:

Ayton is supremely talented, but he is also supremely unprofessional.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I look for upward trends in young players especially big men.

Apparently you want a finished product at age 22.

Except the latest trend has been downward for Ayton. He’s sucked in the bubble.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

As long as you continue to add literal teenagers to your team of professionals, you're going to usually have to wait three to five years for a finished product. In the heyday of the NBA, Ayton would still be in college, not bizarrely going into his 3rd year in the NBA. Everyone's just chasing quick dollars, not real success. Ayton will be a big piece on the team, but won't ever be its leader.

When was this heyday of the nba when the best players were not entering the nba until after their junior year? That’s decades ago and completely irrelevant to today’s league.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't see it.

It is hard to quantify Ayton. I was as revolted as anyone by yet another bone headed failing when he missed his testing window... but at the same time, we were down 15 before he got on the court, once he entered the game we totally obliterated OKC.

There is nothing empty about Ayton's stats. He makes a huge impact that baseline stats don't do enough to quantify. He absolutely has an all-nba impact on the outcome of games, our splits when he is on and off the court are nuts. What frustrates is that he is THAT good while seemingly giving somewhere between half and three quarters of a ****. If he gave an entire **** he would become an all-time great.

Yeah. Watching Ayton play can be highly frustrating. But if you focus on the team itself while he's out there it's clear we're a much better team when he's playing. About the only time he doesn't help us a lot is when he's butter fingered and we keep trying to set him up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't see it.

It is hard to quantify Ayton. I was as revolted as anyone by yet another bone headed failing when he missed his testing window... but at the same time, we were down 15 before he got on the court, once he entered the game we totally obliterated OKC.

There is nothing empty about Ayton's stats. He makes a huge impact that baseline stats don't do enough to quantify. He absolutely has an all-nba impact on the outcome of games, our splits when he is on and off the court are nuts. What frustrates is that he is THAT good while seemingly giving somewhere between half and three quarters of a ****. If he gave an entire **** he would become an all-time great.

I agree with this. Watching him is generally unimpressive. I mean REALLY watching him. I can’t help to focus on him in games. He doesn’t run hard, he’s caught watching defensively a LOT, he gives up a LOT of layups by smaller players, he doesn’t get to the free throw line at all (9 FTs in 7 games in the bubble, and that’s with a game with a gargantuan 5 FTs - seriously?!?), he doesn’t punish small players in the post, and his stats have all dropped in the bubble. But the team stats when he’s on the floor verses off just don’t seem to reflect all that. It’s one of the most confounding picture of contradictions I’ve been seen in sports. And it really speaks to our frustration - because if he wasn’t all those negatives we’d not only likely be a playoff team, we’d likely already be nearing contender status as crazy as that seems.

as for his missed test - anyone thinking that was anything other than Ayton’s fault is nuts. Because if it was we would SURELY know it because the team would make sure it was made public to protect their young player from public criticism. To believe this was anything other than Ayton being an idiot - again - is just ignoring the evidence. What’s the saying about “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice . . . ?”

 

[Dr. Jones]

I don't see it.

It is hard to quantify Ayton. I was as revolted as anyone by yet another bone headed failing when he missed his testing window... but at the same time, we were down 15 before he got on the court, once he entered the game we totally obliterated OKC.

There is nothing empty about Ayton's stats. He makes a huge impact that baseline stats don't do enough to quantify. He absolutely has an all-nba impact on the outcome of games, our splits when he is on and off the court are nuts. What frustrates is that he is THAT good while seemingly giving somewhere between half and three quarters of a ****. If he gave an entire **** he would become an all-time great.

I agree with this. Watching him is generally unimpressive. I mean REALLY watching him. I can’t help to focus on him in games. He doesn’t run hard, he’s caught watching defensively a LOT, he gives up a LOT of layups by smaller players, he doesn’t get to the free throw line at all (9 FTs in 7 games in the bubble, and that’s with a game with a gargantuan 5 FTs - seriously?!?), he doesn’t punish small players in the post, and his stats have all dropped in the bubble. But the team stats when he’s on the floor verses off just don’t seem to reflect all that. It’s one of the most confounding picture of contradictions I’ve been seen in sports. And it really speaks to our frustration - because if he wasn’t all those negatives we’d not only likely be a playoff team, we’d likely already be nearing contender status as crazy as that seems.

as for his missed test - anyone thinking that was anything other than Ayton’s fault is nuts. Because if it was we would SURELY know it because the team would make sure it was made public to protect their young player from public criticism. To believe this was anything other than Ayton being an idiot - again - is just ignoring the evidence. What’s the saying about “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice . . . ?”

100% Agree with these comments.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Somebody needs to challenge Ayton to get 12 pts a game off dunks and freethrows only. Bake it into his contract with incentive. If he's externally motivated, so be it. Just need to find the right strings to pull. That number should be higher, but he's (if my math is correct) at 8.7 currently.

 

[Covert Rain]

Except the latest trend has been downward for Ayton. He’s sucked in the bubble.

Just at a quick glance he is down slightly in most categories in the bubble but I don't think that classifies as "sucked" unless you are comparing it strictly to his overall performance all season. Even then there are far worse centers in the NBA.

Someone on another forum said (I have not confirmed) that Ayton's plus/minus this season was hovering around an a season average of +1 before the freeze. In the bubble it's been +6 which is a huge difference. If true that sounds like he is gelling more with the team and even if not putting up the same numbers is making a difference on the floor. Again, have not confirmed those numbers.

Would definitely like to see more consistency because in the OKC game it was +22 with him on the floor. Earlier against WAS it was +12 which is sick. He then counters that though with a -6 against DAL and a -2 against LAC.

 

[1Sun]

Just at a quick glance he is down slightly in most categories in the bubble but I don't think that classifies as "sucked" unless you are comparing it strictly to his overall performance all season. Even then there are far worse centers in the NBA.

Someone on another forum said (I have not confirmed) that Ayton's plus/minus this season was hovering around an a season average of +1 before the freeze. In the bubble it's been +6 which is a huge difference. If true that sounds like he is gelling more with the team and even if not putting up the same numbers is making a difference on the floor. Again, have not confirmed those numbers.

Would definitely like to see more consistency because in the OKC game it was +22 with him on the floor. Earlier against WAS it was +12 which is sick. He then counters that though with a -6 against DAL and a -2 against LAC.

Maybe that plus-minus discrepancy in the bubble is as simple as Ayton dominating lesser competition and shrinking from the challenge against better opponents. That mental weakness showed much of the time in college as well.

 

[Covert Rain]

Maybe that plus-minus discrepancy in the bubble is as simple as Ayton dominating lesser competition and shrinking from the challenge against better opponents. That mental weakness showed much of the time in college as well.

Possibly. Six games is hardly a great sampling regardless if you are praising him or criticizing him.

 

[Phrazbit]

Maybe that plus-minus discrepancy in the bubble is as simple as Ayton dominating lesser competition and shrinking from the challenge against better opponents. That mental weakness showed much of the time in college as well.

Booker's plus minus over those two games also was a -8... does that mean he shrinks as well?

Or does it mean that they played the bulk of their minutes against the strongest lineups the those teams have... hmm.......?

 

[1Sun]

Booker's plus minus over those two games also was a -8... does that mean he shrinks as well?

Or does it mean that they played the bulk of their minutes against the strongest lineups the those teams have... hmm.......?

The disparity with Booker isn't as great, plus Booker doesn't have Ayton's history of mental weakness.

You seem hell-bent on picking a fight with me. Am I really that much inside your head?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Booker's plus minus over those two games also was a -8... does that mean he shrinks as well?

Or does it mean that they played the bulk of their minutes against the strongest lineups the those teams have... hmm.......?

I swing back and forth on +\- yesterday watching the game I checked stats and it had Payne as a +7 but he was playing AWFULLY at the time. I mean TERRIBLE. So the others are pulling his share during that run. It really hammered home to me the limited insight +/- provides.

 

[BC867]

I'd settle for him staying clean, sober and motivated.

No, you wouldn't! (Neither would I.)