Ayton sorta sucks

[TJ]

Hindsight is 20/20. No one on this board (even the one's like me that were pro Doncic) thought he would be as good as he already is. Also while he was the best player in the Euroleague he was still only putting up like 17/5/5 per game. We are also suffering from not being able to see our guy play right now and I think impatience is making people jump the gun on the whole "we made a mistake" angle. Sure it's looking pretty likely that we took the wrong guy, but it is still too early to know that for sure. We will actually have to see Ayton play some extended games to be sure and likely need to see how he plays through the remainder of his rookie contract.

100% accurate. If Ayton finishes averaging 22/11/4/2, I think (hope) people will peel back on the hawt takes

 

[BC867]

100% accurate. If Ayton finishes averaging 22/11/4/2, I think (hope) people will peel back on the hawt takes

Individual stats don't automatically lead even a cellar dwelling team to the next level.

I'll post it again. On any given night, do he (Ayton or Booker) lead his team to victory?

So far, except for a good 2-week start (thanks to Baynes, who did), neither has this season.

Ayton because of his monumental stupidity -- even if he came back today, he would be
nowhere near game condition.

And Booker because he is not James Harden on offense. Not by size and not by team results.

 

[Bufalay]

100% accurate. If Ayton finishes averaging 22/11/4/2, I think (hope) people will peel back on the hawt takes

15/10/1/.7

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

15/10/1/.7

So worse than his rookie stats? Possible, but seems unlikely. In the 2 games that he has played in he is putting up 18/12 in just 29 minutes.

 

[TJ]

Individual stats don't automatically lead even a cellar dwelling team to the next level.

I'll post it again. On any given night, do he (Ayton or Booker) lead his team to victory?

So far, except for a good 2-week start (thanks to Baynes, who did), neither has this season.

Ayton because of his monumental stupidity -- even if he came back today, he would be
nowhere near game condition.

And Booker because he is not James Harden on offense. Not by size and not by team results.

Aside from Lebron James and Kevin Durant, there isn't an individual player in the NBA who can lead their team to victory without significant help. Booker is the main man on the team, but like 98% of the NBA, needs a supporting cast to be successful. That includes competent coaching, other good players, like Ayton, and depth. Baynes did well, but he was not the singular reason for our initial success, as you imply.

While we're talking about Harden v. Book, at 23, Harden averaged roughly the same amount of points and assists as Booker, and Booker has a much better FG%. Let's not compare 23 and 21-year-olds to 30-year-old veterans.

 

[TJ]

BTW - shout out to the collective Suns fanbase who're now crapping on Devin Booker while doing so on Ayton. Next, you all are going to shred Al McCoy and the Gorilla into pieces

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Aside from Lebron James and Kevin Durant, there isn't an individual player in the NBA who can lead their team to victory without significant help. Booker is the main man on the team, but like 98% of the NBA, needs a supporting cast to be successful. That includes competent coaching, other good players, like Ayton, and depth. Baynes did well, but he was not the singular reason for our initial success, as you imply.

While we're talking about Harden v. Book, at 23, Harden averaged roughly the same amount of points and assists as Booker, and Booker has a much better FG%. Let's not compare 23 and 21-year-olds to 30-year-old veterans.

Not even sure you can put KD into that conversation either. He has always played on teams with pretty strong support. LeBron might very well be the only guy in the league over the past decade or two that can single handedly carry a bad roster to wins.

 

[Cheesebeef]

100% accurate. If Ayton finishes averaging 22/11/4/2, I think (hope) people will peel back on the hawt takes

dude, if he averages 22/11/4/2 by the end of the year he will have made MAJOR strides. I mean, you're talking about doubling his assists, blocks and adding 6 ppg to last year. He starts putting those numbers up, the team has to improve and then he will get deserved kudos.

that said, if he maintains 16-18/11 rebounds... like he has since his first game ever stepping on the court and the team is still bad, will you actually admit cause for concern or will you come with excuses for him due to his own stupid suspension/injury?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Aside from Lebron James and Kevin Durant, there isn't an individual player in the NBA who can lead their team to victory without significant help. Booker is the main man on the team, but like 98% of the NBA, needs a supporting cast to be successful. That includes competent coaching, other good players, like Ayton, and depth. Baynes did well, but he was not the singular reason for our initial success, as you imply.

While we're talking about Harden v. Book, at 23, Harden averaged roughly the same amount of points and assists as Booker, and Booker has a much better FG%. Let's not compare 23 and 21-year-olds to 30-year-old veterans.

do me a favor... let me know how many games the Rockets won when Harden was 23 and who was the superior talent on that Rockets team.

Oh nevermind... I actually had this discussion last year. Harden playing on a real poopy Houston team led them to 45-37 record. Now, you're probably going to argue Harden had much better talent and coaching!

Well, his second best player on that team was... Chandler Parsons clocking in at 15.5 ppg. 3rd best... Jeremy Freaking Lin.

His coach was... Kevin McHale.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2013.html

Harden actually led that atrocious team to the playoffs and won 45 games. Booker's leading us right back into the lottery. Both at the age of 23. Sometimes, stats don't tell the whole story.

 

[TJ]

dude, if he averages 22/11/4/2 by the end of the year he will have made MAJOR strides. I mean, you're talking about doubling his assists, blocks and adding 6 ppg to last year. He starts putting those numbers up, the team has to improve and then he will get deserved kudos.

that said, if he maintains 16-18/11 rebounds... like he has since his first game ever stepping on the court and the team is still bad, will you actually admit cause for concern or will you come with excuses for him due to his own stupid suspension/injury?

One way or the other, I'm not going to anoint him the savior or a bust. Even if he gets to that hypothetical statline, he has to improve even more from there. I refuse to ride the Ayton emotional rollercoaster.

 

[TJ]

do me a favor... let me know how many games the Rockets won when Harden was 23 and who was the superior talent on that Rockets team.

Oh nevermind... I actually had this discussion last year. Harden playing on a real ****** Houston team led them to 45-37 record. Now, you're probably going to argue Harden had much better talent and coaching!

Well, his second best player on that team was... Chandler Parsons clocking in at 15.5 ppg. 3rd best... Jeremy Freaking Lin.

His coach was... Kevin McHale.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2013.html

Harden actually led that atrocious team to the playoffs and won 45 games. Booker's leading us right back into the lottery. Both at the age of 23. Sometimes, stats don't tell the whole story.

Would you be willing to go on record and say Goran Dragic led an atrocious Suns team to 48 wins? Because that happened. Would you take Dragic over Harden or Booker? Hell no.

Kevin McHale has a career W/L % of 56%, which is better than Jeff Hornacek, Earl Watson, Igor, and Monty. And at their ages, Harden and Booker's skillsets are the same: both talented scorers who can pass when needed, but are subaverage defenders.

 

[Sunburn]

100% accurate. If Ayton finishes averaging 22/11/4/2, I think (hope) people will peel back on the hawt takes

More than those numbers, he could easily win me back by showing defensive intensity. Even his first game back, he gives me a full game of gritty defensive effort, the dream is alive again. I'd bet my car he doesn't.

 

[GatorAZ]

BTW - shout out to the collective Suns fanbase who're now crapping on Devin Booker while doing so on Ayton. Next, you all are going to shred Al McCoy and the Gorilla into pieces

Al McCoy is probably on PED’s because he sounds the exact same as he did 30 years ago.

 

[AZ Native]

Al McCoy is probably on PED’s because he sounds the exact same as he did 30 years ago.

Lame, very disrespectful. SMH

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

dude, if he averages 22/11/4/2 by the end of the year he will have made MAJOR strides. I mean, you're talking about doubling his assists, blocks and adding 6 ppg to last year. He starts putting those numbers up, the team has to improve and then he will get deserved kudos.

that said, if he maintains 16-18/11 rebounds... like he has since his first game ever stepping on the court and the team is still bad, will you actually admit cause for concern or will you come with excuses for him due to his own stupid suspension/injury?

Honestly the difference between Ayton and Luka is less than the one between Bridges and SGA. Funny that's never brought up.

Obviously Luka should have been the pick (I was a Bagley guy, who's worse than both) and Ayton is a convenient punching bag for some reason but if we had drafted more guys like him and less like Bridges, Josh Jackson, Bender and Chriss we would not be here right now.

 

[BC867]

Ayton is a convenient punching bag.

Really? You don't hold him responsible for what his absence has done to the Suns?

Two starts and, tonight, finally back (again) and coming off the bench?

Versus coming out of pre-season training, building into game shape and
being on a roll long before now.

'Sorry, but I hold him responsible for letting our team down.

At this point, he is a Kardashian. A celebrity for being a celebrity.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Really? You don't hold him responsible for what his absence has done to the Suns?

Two starts and, tonight, finally back (again) and coming off the bench?

Versus coming out of pre-season training, building into game shape and
being on a roll long before now.

'Sorry, but I hold him responsible for letting our team down.

At this point, he is a Kardashian. A celebrity for being a celebrity.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this team would still be pretty bad even if Ayton had started thirty games.

I hold the guys who are picking the players responsible.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

100% accurate. If Ayton finishes averaging 22/11/4/2, I think (hope) people will peel back on the hawt takes

It depends. If does so in a meaningful manner, impacting games, getting to the line, playing good defense, yup I’ll be in hollering for him. But man so far he started hot as a rookie and plateaued. Then got suspended for 25 freaking games, then got hurt, and frankly looks charmin soft.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

BTW - shout out to the collective Suns fanbase who're now crapping on Devin Booker while doing so on Ayton. Next, you all are going to shred Al McCoy and the Gorilla into pieces

Naw those guys rocked!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton with three personal fouls in 13 minutes and he’s shot - ZERO - free throws. SHOCKING!!!

 

[BC867]

Ayton with three personal fouls in 13 minutes and he’s shot - ZERO - free throws. SHOCKING!!!

It is clear that Deandre avoids contact. Realistically, we can't expect that to change this season.

The question is . . . can that change at all?

 

[CRC83]

It depends. If does so in a meaningful manner, impacting games, getting to the line, playing good defense, yup I’ll be in hollering for him. But man so far he started hot as a rookie and plateaued. Then got suspended for 25 freaking games, then got hurt, and frankly looks charmin soft.

Exactly. It’s not just about the stats... I expect he’ll be around 22/11 the rest of the way. But are the suns playing significantly better with him compared to the start of the season? Is he being more aggressive? Getting to the free throw line more? Protecting the rim and showing improvement on defense?

Ultimately, I want to see the suns win, and if Ayton can start impacting that stat, I’ll be happy.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Ayton with three personal fouls in 13 minutes and he’s shot - ZERO - free throws. SHOCKING!!!

Who could have seen such maddening inconsistency, poor defense, and passitivity coming?

The box scores said he was great

 

[CRC83]

Just keep doing what he did in that 4th quarter!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It is clear that Deandre avoids contact. Realistically, we can't expect that to change this season.

The question is . . . can that change at all?

It's almost like he sorta sucks