Ayton's Development at the Quarter Mark of 2018-2019 Season

[BC867]

See BC I think these comments are what gets you in trouble and results in arguments. Not a single poster has made 0blocks the primary evaluator of the rookie.” It’s this kind of hyperbole that stirs up the board, and not in a good way because youre essentially negating any other comment anyone has made if they offered some criticism of ayton’s rim protection. And frankly I don’t think that’s fair to anyone and I think it’s a disingenuous manner of argumentation.

Not a single poster? Ouchie, for a period of weeks early on, there were constantly posts criticizing Ayton for not being a shot blocking presence and I posted that I thought it was unfair to make the lack of two or three potential blocks per game the primary evaluation of his early development. You yourself referred to it in your post highlighted above. His scoring and rebounding averages were progressing well.

And I'm really curious about your phraseology, "...negating any other comments anyone has made..." Negating? I submit that it is posting differing opinions, without which this, and all other, boards would have no reason to exist.

In my sixteen years posting on ASFN boards, as well as the two boards which preceded it, I have never, not once, tried to make a point by insulting a poster. I have even quoted, "Attack problems, not people." By people, I mean fellow Suns fans. You know as well as I that there are posters whose MO is to first insult the poster, then discuss the issue.

Criticizing a meddling Managing General Partner or one novice General Manager or Head Coach after another . . . I consider that to be fair. As do most here. The fate of our team is in their hands, not ours. As well as the fate of our community should the millionaire investors suggest moving the team out of State as was in the headlines recently. Now that I take personally!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not a single poster? Ouchie, for a period of weeks early on, there were constantly posts criticizing Ayton for not being a shot blocking presence and I posted that I thought it was unfair to make the lack of two or three potential blocks per game the primary evaluation of his early development. You yourself referred to it in your post highlighted above. His scoring and rebounding averages were progressing well.

And I'm really curious about your phraseology, "...negating any other comments anyone has made..." Negating? I submit that it is posting differing opinions, without which this, and all other, boards would have no reason to exist.

In my sixteen years posting on ASFN boards, as well as the two boards which preceded it, I have never, not once, tried to make a point by insulting a poster. I have even quoted, "Attack problems, not people." By people, I mean fellow Suns fans. You know as well as I that there are posters whose MO is to first insult the poster, then discuss the issue.

Criticizing a meddling Managing General Partner or one novice General Manager or Head Coach after another . . . I consider that to be fair. As do most here. The fate of our team is in their hands, not ours. As well as the fate of our community should the millionaire investors suggest moving the team out of State as was in the headlines recently. Now that I take personally!

BC, you kinda do it again here when you say “primary evaluation” you’re doubling down on the premise that people made his lack of rim protection the “primary” element focused on. The inference is that everything else (scoring, rebounding, passing) is virtually ignored by these posters. And again I submit that this wasn’t the case. People, myself amongst them, discussed ayton’s poor rim protection in solely that context. I don’t recall anyone saying “Ayton sucks because he doesn’t block shots.” I think people did say “Ayton sucks at blocking shots.” But there’s a world of difference between those two comments. And I think when you make those comments you’re essentially turning the latter into the former and I think that’s basically mistating people’s comments and opinions. I don’t think you are doing it intentionally - and I think a lot of people are prone to this on message boards, but I do think it tends to derail good conversations because people see themselves being misrepresented. Just my observations.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Don't forget that this discussion was about Ayton backing off from trying for blocks early on, because contact is more difficult to avoid on attempts to block or steal.

In response to those posters who seemed to be making blocks the primary evaluator of the rookie. Hardly, when he is averaging double digits in scoring and rebounding.

this is complete and utter BS. The primary FRUSTRATION was lack of blocks. It was in NO WAY the primary EVALUATOR of Ayton. And to say so is what starts the arguments you bemoan the board for having. Stop projecting unfounded/hyperbolic/over-generalized arguments into other posters comments.

 

[Covert Rain]

I totally get where @BC867 is coming from. Seemed to me also people were overly focused on blocks as their primary means of evaluating him for a bit there. So much so that anybody calling out the other things that he was doing well were ignored or it turned into “but his blocks” type responses and how a big man should be protecting the rim.

I get it. It's legit criticism or frustration worthy of discussion as part of a larger picture including opponent player PER to evaluate his defense.

However, you guys are acting like BC had an unreasonable perception that it sure seemed like that's what people were doing. It’s not like another entire thread dedicated to just his blocks was started with a 147 replies....wait.

As usual it was a Suns forum freak out for a bit.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I totally get where @BC867 is coming from. Seemed to me also people were overly focused on blocks as their primary means of evaluating him for a bit there. So much so that anybody calling out the other things that he was doing well were ignored or it turned into “but his blocks” type responses and how a big man should be protecting the rim.

I get it. It's legit criticism or frustration worthy of discussion as part of a larger picture including opponent player PER to evaluate his defense.

However, you guys are acting like BC had an unreasonable perception that it sure seemed like that's what people were doing. It’s not like another entire thread dedicated to just his blocks was started with a 147 replies....wait.

As usual it was a Suns forum freak out for a bit.

Uh maybe it seemed like the focus was on blocks because the thread was started to discuss JUST THAT ASPECT of his game. You can do that while still recognizing and appreciating other aspects of his game. But no one made it the “primary” evaluator of his talent. Show me where.

 

[Covert Rain]

Uh maybe it seemed like the focus was on blocks because the thread was started to discuss JUST THAT ASPECT of his game. You can do that while still recognizing and appreciating other aspects of his game. But no one made it the “primary” evaluator of his talent. Show me where.

I think you missed the point. One thread dedicated to the topic and multiple posts accusing people of excuses or apologizing for his lack of blocks is a reasonable reason to assume that was a focus.

You are acting like it came out of left field.

How many posts would you like?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think you missed the point. One thread dedicated to the topic and multiple posts accusing people of excuses or apologizing for his lack of blocks is a reasonable reason to assume that was a focus.

You are acting like it came out of left field.

How many posts would you like?

Forget it. You very obviously either do not comprehend what I’m saying, or you don’t want to.

 

[Covert Rain]

Forget it. You very obviously either do not comprehend what I’m saying, or you don’t want to.

Sort of like BC’s perception.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sort of like BC’s perception.

Except BC is saying what he thinks others are saying. He’s entitled to his perception, but not to put words into other people’s mouths, which is what he’s doing. He’s not saying “I think you guys are saying . . .” He’s saying “you guys are saying”. And that’s neither fair nor accurate.

 

[BC867]

BC, you kinda do it again here when you say “primary evaluation” you’re doubling down on the premise that people made his lack of rim protection the “primary” element focused on. The inference is that everything else (scoring, rebounding, passing) is virtually ignored by these posters. And again I submit that this wasn’t the case. People, myself amongst them, discussed ayton’s poor rim protection in solely that context. I don’t recall anyone saying “Ayton sucks because he doesn’t block shots.” I think people did say “Ayton sucks at blocking shots.” But there’s a world of difference between those two comments. And I think when you make those comments you’re essentially turning the latter into the former and I think that’s basically mistating people’s comments and opinions. I don’t think you are doing it intentionally - and I think a lot of people are prone to this on message boards, but I do think it tends to derail good conversations because people see themselves being misrepresented. Just my observations.

I respect and accept your response, Ouchie. And I feel more comfortable with the situation, now that Ayton has started to add blocked shots to his repertoire with respect from the refs.

 

[TJ]

Said before the season that Ayton would struggle to figure out the NBA game until December and he’s certainly turned the corner.

 

[JCSunsfan]

26, 18, 3. Ho hum. Seems to be able to do it in his sleep. Wonder what he will be like when he actually figures it out?

 

[SirStefan32]

Thought this was a really good article:
http://arizonasports.com/story/1781...-outlook-shown-in-suns-recent-two-game-spurt/

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I respect and accept your response, Ouchie. And I feel more comfortable with the situation, now that Ayton has started to add blocked shots to his repertoire with respect from the refs.

We good

 

[Joe Mama]

They really just need to work on his effort level.I almost certainly had unfair expectations for his development, but I do feel somewhat justified because there was so much talk not only from the organization but also directly from him about how much harder he works everybody else.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Blocks is an overrated defensive stat. Some of the best big men defenders were not big time shot blockers. Kurt Thomas comes to mind. Many times a player that has lots of blocks is actually a worse defender because he ends up constantly out of place, especially to rebound. Jaren Jackson’s shot blocking lends to his poor rebounding.

 

[Phrazbit]

Admittedly not bothering to read the last few pages of banter before this post:

Ayton is a monster and he's going to be an absolute superstar. He's already one of the best rebounders in the league, his ability on the interior is unreal for someone his age. He seems to finally be realizing just how good he is in these respects and asserting himself. I would not be surprised if he averaged something like 22-12 the rest of the way.

Furthermore, his defense has improved along with the rest of the team defense. Yeah, Bryant on the Wizards went ham against us, but the Suns clearly decided before the game to either switch or double Beal on every pick... that is a strat they probably should have abandoned when Bryant kept getting free dunks vs a guard or totally unopposed. In one on one situations Ayton is good, on help D situations Ayton is improving dramatically, on our pick and roll switch D... that is where he is struggling, he needs to get faster about shuffling back to cut off the pass or contest when the big cuts to the hoop, but it doesn't seem like a lack of will, he's just slow to make the move.

There were a lot of games where he was not contesting at all on help defense, just getting out of the way of penetrating guards. He's not doing that anymore. He is recognizing and adjusting, which from a 20 year old who is already phenomenal in so many aspects, is great to see. I really think Holmes eating into Ayton's playing time via hustle and defense was a wake up call.

Moral of the story, IMO we've got a future top 3 offensive big who will provide C+ or better defense as time goes on. I also think Ayton will step up in more intense situations, he seems like a player who will have his worst games when we play terrible teams and play his best in big moments.

Side note: I'm totally off the John Wall wagon. Maybe a change of scenery would make him rise to stardom again, but they're better without him this year. That Wizard team has a lot of questionable characters.

 

[Ronin]

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[taz02]

WOW that is outstanding.

Not to jump ahead but the off season will tell us alot about Ayton. If he hits the gym, works on his stamina which is not good at the moment, and works on his game all summer we will be all set and he will be on his way to becoming one of the all time greats.

If he hangs out plays video games all summer we will have to just settle for 24 and 16

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

WOW that is outstanding.

Not to jump ahead but the off season will tell us alot about Ayton. If he hits the gym, works on his stamina which is not good at the moment, and works on his game all summer we will be all set and he will be on his way to becoming one of the all time greats.

If he hangs out plays video games all summer we will have to just settle for 24 and 16

Right? How crazy is that?!? That 24 and 16 doesn’t look difficult for him. If he realizes what he can be he’s going to be 30 and 15 for quite a few years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Blocks is an overrated defensive stat. Some of the best big men defenders were not big time shot blockers. Kurt Thomas comes to mind. Many times a player that has lots of blocks is actually a worse defender because he ends up constantly out of place, especially to rebound. Jaren Jackson’s shot blocking lends to his poor rebounding.

Blocks may be an overrated stat, but when a lack of blocks is combined with rim protection that is nowhere near on the Kurt Thomas level, criticism of defense down low is warranted. And that was the issue earlier in the season when people were concerned about Ayton.

But he's beasting right now and getting better and better. I just hope Igor realizes how much more of a weapon Ayton can be as not an ancillary part of the offense, but a literal centerpiece to create open shots for everyone. The offensive skill this kid naturally has is off the charts. Just gotta keep growing his confidence and giving him opportunity to build his game. That will only help everyone else.

 

[SirStefan32]

Blocks is an overrated defensive stat. Some of the best big men defenders were not big time shot blockers. Kurt Thomas comes to mind. Many times a player that has lots of blocks is actually a worse defender because he ends up constantly out of place, especially to rebound. Jaren Jackson’s shot blocking lends to his poor rebounding.

In general, I agree with you. I would also add steals to that as well. That said, the really great defenders do get steals and blocks, depending on their position. Kurt Thomas was a bit undersized and not extremely athletic, but he understood defensive rotations, he knew where he needed to be and when he needed to be there, he understood blocking out, and all that nice stuff. He made the most out of the physical tools he had. While I agree with your premise, I don't think that the lack of blocks is why some of us are not happy with Ayton defensively. I couldn't care less about the blocks, though if he starts playing the right way, the blocks will come. I care about him not understanding rotations, help defense, and giving up on plays once the opposing player is close to the hoop or past him. With how tall, long, quick, and athletic he is, he should be able to challenge those shots.

 

[SirStefan32]

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66.7 FG%. Let that sink in. Now, why is he not getting 20 shots per game? This is the part that's driving me crazy. Mind you, I am a huge Igor fan- I think he will be one of the best coaches in the NBA in the next couple of years, but this is driving me crazy. You have a guy shooting 67% from the field and you are not feeding him 20-25 shots every night... that's insane!

 

[Lefty]

66.7 FG%. Let that sink in. Now, why is he not getting 20 shots per game? This is the part that's driving me crazy. Mind you, I am a huge Igor fan- I think he will be one of the best coaches in the NBA in the next couple of years, but this is driving me crazy. You have a guy shooting 67% from the field and you are not feeding him 20-25 shots every night... that's insane!

That is why they need a point guard. I really hope they try and sign Kemba Walker.

 

[Chaplin]

66.7 FG%. Let that sink in. Now, why is he not getting 20 shots per game? This is the part that's driving me crazy. Mind you, I am a huge Igor fan- I think he will be one of the best coaches in the NBA in the next couple of years, but this is driving me crazy. You have a guy shooting 67% from the field and you are not feeding him 20-25 shots every night... that's insane!

This is the #1 adjustment Igor should be making, for months mind you, but he still isn’t doing it. He’s adjusting in other areas, why not this one??