BA: Palmer Not To Blame for Early Struggles

[Arizona's Finest]

Cmon Shane quit flipping out on this. This actually is exactly what my eyes told me when I was at the TB game. To me Floyd and Housler are not very smart players who both get by on physical skills rather then mental acuity.

The reality likely lies somewhere in the middle. The Wr's and Te's are'nt making Carsons job easier but hes also forcing the ball - especially when it comes to Fitz.

And yes we can blame Arians.Must be easier for guys to pick things up when Peyton is on the field holding guys accountable. But I actually think Arians hold of the "program" is quite good. Being even 3-3 makes me happy and anyone who watched that game saw we went toe to toe with SF, which hasnt been the case in 5 years. He has some growth to do in game no doubt (Safety being Exhibit A as well as 3rd and 1 call out of shotgun) but overall I am happy with his coaching.

I just dont think the players are getting it and making critical mistakes. NFL passing game is based on rhythem and timing and its obvious we dont have that yet in 6 games.

Question is, is it going to get better? Sure seemed that way 2nd half but well see.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I call this the "keep Carson's confidence up" project

its pretty much the exact opposite to the Whis approach

we will see how it works out

Also THIS!

 

[Mulli]

Cmon Shane quit flipping out on this. This actually is exactly what my eyes told me when I was at the TB game. To me Floyd and Housler are not very smart players who both get by on physical skills rather then mental acuity.

The reality likely lies somewhere in the middle. The Wr's and Te's are'nt making Carsons job easier but hes also forcing the ball - especially when it comes to Fitz.

And yes we can blame Arians.Must be easier for guys to pick things up when Peyton is on the field holding guys accountable. But I actually think Arians hold of the "program" is quite good. Being even 3-3 makes me happy and anyone who watched that game saw we went toe to toe with SF, which hasnt been the case in 5 years. He has some growth to do in game no doubt (Safety being Exhibit A as well as 3rd and 1 call out of shotgun) but overall I am happy with his coaching.

I just dont think the players are getting it and making critical mistakes. NFL passing game is based on rhythem and timing and its obvious we dont have that yet in 6 games.

Question is, is it going to get better? Sure seemed that way 2nd half but well see.

For discussion's sake:

Do you think Carson Palmer is a very smart football player? I don't see much difference between his football IQ and Michael Floyd's....

 

[Arizona's Finest]

For discussion's sake:

Do you think Carson Palmer is a very smart football player? I don't see much difference between his football IQ and Michael Floyd's....

Do I think Carson Palmer is a very smart football player? Depends on how you define smart. But yes I do. He has been around enough, seen enough, and played with enough offensive minds to be what I would consider a smart player. As I mentioned in the TB thread all the players were looking at him on the field for direction.

Is he a leader of men? I dont think so. Does he believe too much in his right arm at times and force throws? Yes. Is he calm under pressure and duress? Hell no.

The last one is the single biggest trait in average QBs and the stars.

 

[Mulli]

Do I think Carson Palmer is a very smart football player? Depends on how you define smart. But yes I do. He has been around enough, seen enough, and played with enough offensive minds to be what I would consider a smart player. As I mentioned in the TB thread all the players were looking at him on the field for direction.

Is he a leader of men? I dont think so. Does he believe too much in his right arm at times and force throws? Yes. Is he calm under pressure and duress? Hell no.

The last one is the single biggest trait in average QBs and the stars.

Hmm, I was just wondering if Palmer was "very smart" on the same scale that has Michael Floyd and Housler as not very smart.

I just don't see Palmer showing any signs of being very smart. Could be but I don't see it. Too many headscratching throws. Not enough examples of him doing smart football things.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Hmm, I was just wondering if Palmer was "very smart" on the same scale that has Michael Floyd and Housler as not very smart.

I just don't see Palmer showing any signs of being very smart. Could be but I don't see it. Too many headscratching throws. Not enough examples of him doing smart football things.

Well the whole point of this thread is "why are all these INTs happening" and the answer is not as simple as Palmer is dumb and makes bad throws. It may look dumb on the oustide, but as BA is saying there are alot of variables at play. I am in no way comparing Palmer and Peyton Manning but remember this game last year?

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=320917001

Peyton Manning is maybe the smartest player in the history of the NFL. Took time for him and the rest of the offense to become what they are now.

If we are still talking about this in 4 games (which is potentially likely) then it maybe a different conversation. But now? I need more information before I blame Palmer completely or the WR's and TE's completly.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I blame the dude, number 84's very presence confuses all the other receivers on the field by his total misunderstanding of every formation and routes, catching the football and still getting hyped as something special which makes his stupidity and high profile hard to ignore

 

[Russ Smith]

For discussion's sake:

Do you think Carson Palmer is a very smart football player? I don't see much difference between his football IQ and Michael Floyd's....

Oh he's much higher football IQ than Floyd, he has to remember MUCH more of the playbook for one thing.

I'm not saying I don't believe some of the picks are on WR's or TE's, but Palmer has thrown ELEVEN picks already and he's getting away with another 1-2 a game that get dropped or broken up. He's not being careful with the ball that's obvious.

Even Marvin Lewis chimed in somewhat after criticisms of Andy Dalton surfaced saying “I don’t know if his predecessor has won these kind of games week in and week out,” Lewis said. “That’s important all the time. The ultimate goal we all have is to win the football game.”

Palmer has the physical tools he always has, he's better than what we had, but he's looking more and more like Jeff George to me, great arm, but seems way too cavalier with the ball and too quick to blame other people.

Arians' system is a bit INT prone, I made that comment last year when people were comparing Luck to RG3, one guy played in a system with a bunch of rookies and was being asked to push the ball downfield and make all the reads, the other guy in a system tailored to hide his weaknesses and make fewer reads. I think it's obvious now who is really the better young QB of those 2(and they're both good).

But If the system is THIS hard to learn, the system is the problem.

it's must much easier for me to believe that Carson has some tendencies in this system that teams have picked up on and are now sitting on.

if the problem is guys running the wrong routes, why isn't Moore looking at pictures wtih the WR's and TE's, not with Palmer?

 

[BigRedRage]

At first this thread was a stretch but now I'm warming up to it.

nice.

 

[Mulli]

Well the whole point of this thread is "why are all these INTs happening" and the answer is not as simple as Palmer is dumb and makes bad throws. It may look dumb on the oustide, but as BA is saying there are alot of variables at play. I am in no way comparing Palmer and Peyton Manning but remember this game last year?

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=320917001

Peyton Manning is maybe the smartest player in the history of the NFL. Took time for him and the rest of the offense to become what they are now.

If we are still talking about this in 4 games (which is potentially likely) then it maybe a different conversation. But now? I need more information before I blame Palmer completely or the WR's and TE's completly.

Not sure where this came from. I just wanted to flesh out Floyd and Housler not being smart, but Palmer being very smart. Nevermind.

 

[Mulli]

Oh he's much higher football IQ than Floyd, he has to remember MUCH more of the playbook for one thing.

I'm not saying I don't believe some of the picks are on WR's or TE's, but Palmer has thrown ELEVEN picks already and he's getting away with another 1-2 a game that get dropped or broken up. He's not being careful with the ball that's obvious.

Even Marvin Lewis chimed in somewhat after criticisms of Andy Dalton surfaced saying “I don’t know if his predecessor has won these kind of games week in and week out,” Lewis said. “That’s important all the time. The ultimate goal we all have is to win the football game.”

Palmer has the physical tools he always has, he's better than what we had, but he's looking more and more like Jeff George to me, great arm, but seems way too cavalier with the ball and too quick to blame other people.

Arians' system is a bit INT prone, I made that comment last year when people were comparing Luck to RG3, one guy played in a system with a bunch of rookies and was being asked to push the ball downfield and make all the reads, the other guy in a system tailored to hide his weaknesses and make fewer reads. I think it's obvious now who is really the better young QB of those 2(and they're both good).

But If the system is THIS hard to learn, the system is the problem.

it's must much easier for me to believe that Carson has some tendencies in this system that teams have picked up on and are now sitting on.

if the problem is guys running the wrong routes, why isn't Moore looking at pictures wtih the WR's and TE's, not with Palmer?

Great points.

 

[CHAPTER 7]

I don't think BA and SK can't say anything more. I mean if you were them, even though you know Palmer is no longer your answer, you will tell the entire world that you made a mistake by trading for Palmer? That does no good for the team. You can't bash a player like that. You have to have heart to heart talk in the locker room and make changes (whatever that is) for the next game.

 

[Russ Smith]

One of the comments made repeatedly is it's a timing offense, Palmer throws to a spot, if the WR or TE isn't in that spot, and the DB is, it's a pick.

But I also think what's happening is the defense has figured out what spots Palmer likes to throw to based on what looks he sees on defense. So they show that look and then sit on that spot. That's why on the first drive he threw the ball short to Ellington, when Roberts was wide open for the first down, and it didn't work. As that BR thing said the Niners DB jumped that route he nearly picked it, because IMO they'd seen on tape that Palmer likes that route.

That one to Fitz that got picked and the one before that nearly got picked both of those to me just screamed we saw this on tape and we're sitting on it.

Now we countered that by going over the top, but I don't think that's really we have no speed WR so Palmer can't do that, he can, and we have taken some shots downfield in other games too. I think teams have just figured out where Carson likes to go and they're taking that away.

Then you compound it with guys like Floyd and housler who aren't always where they're supposed to be, and it looks even worse.

 

[JeffGollin]

Sorry to repeat what I said in another thread, but I think too often Carson's passes are arriving too late and give defenders extra time to break on the ball.

I think he gets his throws off quickly enough but they may lack velocity because, instead of drilling certain passes, Carson may have fallen into the habit of throwing floaters or attempting to "throw darts."

If he could throw more balls with more zip, I think he could add 5 - 10% to his completion percentage.

I don't think the problem is lack of arm strength but I guess that could be a possibility also.

Thoughts?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Not sure where this came from. I just wanted to flesh out Floyd and Housler not being smart, but Palmer being very smart. Nevermind.

Man I didnt mean it in an antagonistic way. I just think its more complex then Palmer is a dummy.

I tend to think he knows the playbook better then 90% of the offense. But the wrap on FLoyd and Housler has been running good routes, attention to detail, all that jazz. And thats what my eyes are telling me too. ALso being validated by BA and these comments, although that could be just to pump up CP. So maybe they are not dumb perse, but they need to sharpen the saw?

 

[Mulli]

Man I didnt mean it in an antagonistic way. I just think its more complex then Palmer is a dummy.

I tend to think he knows the playbook better then 90% of the offense. But the wrap on FLoyd and Housler has been running good routes, attention to detail, all that jazz. And thats what my eyes are telling me too. ALso being validated by BA and these comments, although that could be just to pump up CP. So maybe they are not dumb perse, but they need to sharpen the saw?

Sorry, if I sounded jerky. All good.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

One of the comments made repeatedly is it's a timing offense, Palmer throws to a spot, if the WR or TE isn't in that spot, and the DB is, it's a pick.

But I also think what's happening is the defense has figured out what spots Palmer likes to throw to based on what looks he sees on defense. So they show that look and then sit on that spot. That's why on the first drive he threw the ball short to Ellington, when Roberts was wide open for the first down, and it didn't work. As that BR thing said the Niners DB jumped that route he nearly picked it, because IMO they'd seen on tape that Palmer likes that route.

That one to Fitz that got picked and the one before that nearly got picked both of those to me just screamed we saw this on tape and we're sitting on it.

Now we countered that by going over the top, but I don't think that's really we have no speed WR so Palmer can't do that, he can, and we have taken some shots downfield in other games too. I think teams have just figured out where Carson likes to go and they're taking that away.

Then you compound it with guys like Floyd and housler who aren't always where they're supposed to be, and it looks even worse.

I agree with this. I also think Palmer feels internal and external pressure to just get Fitz the damn ball and is throwing it up for grabs. I can think of at least two picks where that seemed to be the case.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sorry to repeat what I said in another thread, but I think too often Carson's passes are arriving too late and give defenders extra time to break on the ball.

I think he gets his throws off quickly enough but they may lack velocity because, instead of drilling certain passes, Carson may have fallen into the habit of throwing floaters or attempting to "throw darts."

If he could throw more balls with more zip, I think he could add 5 - 10% to his completion percentage.

I don't think the problem is lack of arm strength but I guess that could be a possibility also.

Thoughts?

Too many backfoot throws. I joked Sunday backfoot must be his middle name.

that's what's weird, I have seen Palmer play alot over the years, at USC, at Cincy, and with the Raiders. He's always thrown picks and always the killer ones which is why he's never been a huge winner, but this throwing off the backfoot and not stepping up in the pocket that's very atypical of the Palmer I have watched.

I remember Hue Jackson praising that very thing about him in Oakland, he's made some big mistakes but he's not afraid to stand in against the rush and deliver the ball.

We're not seeing that this year IMO.

 

[Darkside]

BA and Keim every week: "Im really impressed by Carsons ability to overcome adversity"




ADVERSITY HE WROUGHT HIMSELF!

That makes me sick hearing them praise him every week, that he can dig out of a hole that he friggin put us in.

BA admitted on Sirius radio yesterday that he protects his QB's and treats them differently. His comment was in reference to the position they put Andrew Luck in by honoring Manning before this Sundays game in Indy. And if the absolute best thing BA can say is that he overcomes adversity, that's about the same as saying he stopped sucking ass.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4

 

[Cardiac]

A lot of quality thoughts and theories Russ.