BA = Toxic

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Note: For those of you who will accuse me of being a bandwagoner---I was one of the few on the board last year who voiced strong concerns about BA's handling of certain situations in the media. For example, I am still very disturbed about BA making his nickname for D.J. Humphries ("Knee Deep") public. It was wrong. But, some will say, "look at Humphries this year---he got the message!" To that I say, he could be playing even better this year. The reality is the Cardinals lost a whole year of on-the-field production from a talented 1st round draft pick in a rare year where they were contending for a championship. They could have drafted Tyler Lockett instead who might have been the STs threat to get the Cardinals the number one seed and their second berth in the Super Bowl.

When BA called out the Rams publicly with his now infamous 8-8 remark---I immediately expressed my concern for that completely unnecessary indiscretion. But, some will say, "Well, he was right, wasn't he?" To that I say, sure---but how does it feel to have lost 2 of the 3 games the Cardinals have played versus Jeff Fisher's Rams since? Last year's loss to the Rams helped prevent the Cardinals from getting the #1 seed.

BA sure has a way of getting under people's skins. Doesn't he?

How about the refs? Do you think BA's treatment of them has had somewhat of an effect on the games this year?

When you give no respect---you get no respect.

How about with some of his players---you know, the ones he doesn't favor?

Has calling out players in the media helped BA's and team's cause this year?

Well, how many players are having an impressive year production-wise?

1. David Johnson; 2. Larry Fitzgerald; 3. Calais Campbell; 4. Tony Jefferson; 5. Patrick Peterson (in coverage, but not in tackling or punt returns); 6. Markus Golden.

That's it---6 players.

So, what happened from last year to this?

Look at how many players have regressed for one reason or another:

1. Carson Palmer; 2. Andre Ellington; 3. Mike Iupati; 4. Darren Fells; 5. Earl Watford; 6. John Brown; 7. Michael Floyd; 8. Frostee Rucker; 9. Rodney Gunter; 10. Kevin Minter; 11. Deone Bucannon; 12. Chandler Jones; 13. Alex Okafor; 14. Tyrann Mathieu; 15. Drew Butler; 16. Chandler Catanzaro; 17. Justin Bethel;

Sure, you can say, "but what about the injuries?" And in the cases of John Brown and Tyrann Mathieu that's an especially valid point. However, why so many drops in player production and performance?

The answer for that, in my opinion, is that BA and his staff have lost the locker room. And it all goes back to their embarrassing pre-season.

The easiest way to tell this by 1st and 3rd quarter scoring numbers, which often indicate how well the players are responding to the coaches during pre-game and during half-time.

1st Quarter Points: Cardinals 41 Opponents 62
3rd Quarter Points: Cardinals 60 Opponents 81

BA will tell you that it's all on the players---that they control the locker room.

In an ideal world, sure. But it all begins and ends with the culture that the head coach creates.

BA talks about accountability all the time---yet absolves himself and his coaches of any accountability, even when, for example, it has been 4 years of subpar STs play and yet BA insists that his STs coach is doing an "excellent job."

BA talks about the players not spending the extra hours it takes to prepare to excel on Sundays---yet he has made it publicly knows that he never thinks coaches should have put in extra nights at the office.

BA belittles players on the practice field---and says he will hug them later. How well is that now working? BA's rookies are nervous wrecks whom he has said he doesn't plan to play anyway. Again this year, a 1st round draft pick sits on the inactive list week after week.

It is one thing to lose and to fall miserably short of high expectations---but it is another thing to compound the losing by handling it with pure ugliness.

Arians' repeated belittling of the Cardinals players has reached a new level of ugly.

On Monday at his press conference he decided to make Justin Bethel his most recent scapegoat and whipping boy when he described Bethel as "a failure in progress."

Justin Bethel is arguably the most dynamic special teams player in the history of the Arizona Cardinals. Bethel is a 3 time Pro-Bowler (2013, 2014, 2015) and 2 time First Team All-Pro (2013, 2015).

Last December, Steve Keim, who identified Bethel as one of the Cardinals' core players, signed Bethel to a 4 year $15.7M contract with $9M guaranteed.

At that time, the expectation was that Bethel would become the starting CB opposite Patrick Peterson in 2016. Also at that time, Bruce Arians was adamant that Bethel has as much physical talent for the position as Peterson. Bethel struggled down the stretch last year filling in for an injured Jerraud Powers---but it was Arians who even exculpated Bethel for allowing Jeff Janis to blow right past him on the Packers' highly improbably Hail Mary. Arians claimed that Janis was not Bethel's responsibility.

This off-season, Powers was not re-signed and the plan all along was to start Bethel at RCB and to use a 3rd round draft pick on CB Brandon Williams to groom behind Bethel on the depth chart.

However, Bethel missed all of the OTAs in the off-season because he had surgery to repair a fracture in his foot. While preparing for training camp, Bethel re-aggravated the injury and missed most of camp. By the start of the regular season it was clear that Bethel would have to play in pain for the entire season.

Frustrated by Bethel's situation, and seeing the Bethel was not his usual self on STs during the opening game loss to the Patriots, an exasperated Arians told the media, “Justin has to decide if he’s going to play with that foot. He was just an average spectator in special teams, missed two tackles. If he’s going to play, he needs to play better or he shouldn’t play.”

Now---despite his foot issues and having lost the entire off-season and pre-season---he's being branded as a "failure in progress."

Well, then, BA, by his own "All or Nothing" standards, thus far is a "failure in progress" himself. He has said repeatedly, the only success is winning the Super Bowl. But---it's the players who are the failures. He continues to make that clear.

Justin Bethel has been the captain of STs. He has shown tremendous skill and courage in becoming the best gunner in the NFL. To treat him in the way BA did is despicable.

Well, in light of how toxic BA has become---don't be totally surprised if Larry Fitzgerald decides to retire this year. It is no secret that Fitz has not been enamored with his role in BA's offense. And who can blame him? Everyone in the world now knows that when Fitz motions toward the tackle, it is running play with him assigned to block the DE or the ILB---something that a TE or H-Back is supposed to do. Better yet, if you have a fullback, then WRs can block downfield, not in the inner scrum.

To Fitz's credit---he has done everything that has been asked of him and more. But---it has come at a cost. It's tough enough to endure the punishment of being a WR---but add in the weekly pounding his body is taking hitting 240-270 pounders in the box and at his age Fitz may very well be on the verge of walking away. Plus there is always the fear of getting his ankles rolled up on from behind...every blocker's fear.

One can imagine that this is not the way Fitz envisioned his last years in the NFL to look like---otherwise, Fitz might be amped to try to catch Jerry Rice.

BA has ridden Fitz for the last three years like a Triple Crown hopeful. Again, some will say, "but it's worked!" To that I ask, at what cost? Why not use a fullback instead---that's how other coaches protect their QBs, RBs and WRs.
 
Last edited:

BigRedRage

Reckless
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Posts
48,274
Reaction score
12,525
Location
SE valley
Toxic? Meh. The sky is falling I guess. Personally, I still love the coach and think he will do well moving forward. One bad year doesnt make a career. The players sure seem to love the guy.

I also dont see the widespread regression you are citing outside of guys being hurt all year like Iupati. He also ages every year, dont think BA can stop that.
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
36,260
Reaction score
8,285
Location
Scottsdale
39-21-1 as a NFL Head Coach... He went 10 wins, then 11 and then 13 as the leader of the Cards. So this is his first experience with an underwhelming, under-performing team. What were you saying about Belicheck during his Cleveland tenure or his first season with the Pats when he won 5 games? Or his 3rd season with the Pats when he only won 9 games?
C'mon Mitch. I think BA is due at least one mulligan, no? Let's see how he and this team bounce back next season. If it's more of the same from this season, then I will likely be on your wagon...
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,423
Reaction score
4,184
Location
Monroe NC
You may not agree with everything Mitch is saying however I think everything Mitch has stated in his post is true especially about Arians and his treatment of players and officials. All of these things Arians said is fact. Those things you can't deny because they are documented.
 

BigRedRage

Reckless
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Posts
48,274
Reaction score
12,525
Location
SE valley
You may not agree with everything Mitch is saying however I think everything Mitch has stated in his post is true especially about Arians and his treatment of players and officials. All of these things Arians said is fact. Those things you can't deny because they are documented.

its the opinion of the detriments of his behavior I dispute.
 

TJ

Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
35,153
Reaction score
21,452
Location
South Bay
You may not agree with everything Mitch is saying however I think everything Mitch has stated in his post is true especially about Arians and his treatment of players and officials. All of these things Arians said is fact. Those things you can't deny because they are documented.

It's his interpretation of the facts that make this an overreaction.

I get fans are frustrated by this season, but you don't kill a spider by lighting your house on fire.
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
36,260
Reaction score
8,285
Location
Scottsdale
You may not agree with everything Mitch is saying however I think everything Mitch has stated in his post is true especially about Arians and his treatment of players and officials. All of these things Arians said is fact. Those things you can't deny because they are documented.

Not sure if you are directing this at me?? I am not denying anything Mitch said. Yes, BA has indeed said those things or acted in the manner Mitch illustrates for us. My issue is...So what?? Is there a perfect Head Coach out there? If so, who might that be and what exactly makes him perfect?
My issue is that Mitch seems to be making efforts to twist facts into a story that fits his own perceptions and views of BA. That he's "toxic..." How so? By what measure(s)?? Because as far as I can tell, I have yet to hear of a player (past or present) speak negatively of BA. As far as I can tell, up until this season, he was doing things no other Cardinal Head Coach had ever done. So, based upon one sub-par season, BA is now "toxic??" Seriously??
 

speedy

the medic
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Posts
2,279
Reaction score
2,426
Location
Glendale
I like the write up Mitch, but I think you're reaching a little bit. I do agree he shouldn't blast players in the media, but it doesn't seem to resonate in the locker room the way you are suggesting it does. Only time will tell, but I think its a bit premature to be jumping to these conclusions. 39-21-1 says a lot. Outside of this year he was 34-14. Thats really impressive to Me.

His ego probably needs a little checking. "My husband is incapable of playing politics" and the straight shooting laced with swear words is getting a little ahead of him. I like who he is and I like his confidence, but it can get the better of any of us if we don't punch it up a bit now and then (speaking from personal experience). I think he (and the rest of the organization) should fight through the rest of this season and try to win out; just work through the down times. He is a wise old man; I am sure he will reflect and get a better grip.

But Amos has gotta go.
 

DeAnna

Just A Face in The Crowd
Joined
Jun 13, 2002
Posts
7,284
Reaction score
769
Location
Goodyear, AZ
Justin Bethel has been the captain of STs. He has shown tremendous skill and courage in becoming the best gunner in the NFL. To treat him in the way BA did is despicable.

All the others I could live with - this one really got my goat. Not good to call out one of the captains so harshly.
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
36,260
Reaction score
8,285
Location
Scottsdale
Mike Jurecki ‏@mikejurecki 4m4 minutes ago
Larry Fitzgerald on Michael Floyd release: “I can’t give you my true feelings because people might get upset. Mike is like my brother."

Fitz went on to add that several GMs have called him about Michael Floyd and Fitz said he highly recommends him.

Mitch - SO WHAT?? I posted a picture earlier this season of Fitz and Floyd playing golf together - right in front of me. They, and plenty of other players, are like family. And family gets pissed when one member of the family is treated harshly. Are you seriously surprised by this??? Damn...
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Not sure if you are directing this at me?? I am not denying anything Mitch said. Yes, BA has indeed said those things or acted in the manner Mitch illustrates for us. My issue is...So what?? Is there a perfect Head Coach out there? If so, who might that be and what exactly makes him perfect?
My issue is that Mitch seems to be making efforts to twist facts into a story that fits his own perceptions and views of BA. That he's "toxic..." How so? By what measure(s)?? Because as far as I can tell, I have yet to hear of a player (past or present) speak negatively of BA. As far as I can, up until this season, he was going things no other Cardinal Head Coach had ever done. So, based upon one sub-par season, BA is now "toxic??" Seriously??

I can't recall any NFL head coach using the media the way BA does to disparage the refs, the league and, worse of all, his own players.

That's how you lose respect and how you lose locker rooms.
 

ajcardfan

I see you.
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
38,910
Reaction score
26,291
Mitch, are you a millennial?

I know nothing about you personally, but based on your statements in your posts I am going to believe this is true of your life:

Unlike other generations, the Millennials are overly connected to their parents. As they move through their twenties, they still speak to their parents frequently and turn to their parents for personal and career advice. Some are still even living at home, not uncomfortable with the arrangement. Organizations must remember the parent involvement factor when dealing with this group. These parents are still micro-managing their children’s careers and personal lives.
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
36,260
Reaction score
8,285
Location
Scottsdale
I can't recall any NFL head coach using the media the way BA does to disparage the refs, the league and, worse of all, his own players.

I just don't have the time, but I am certain other coaches has absolutely used the media for a wide variety of purposes, including going after refs and the league... That said, I am on record as saying I am not a fan of BA's tactics with regard to calling out specific players. And I am also on record as saying I specifically don't like his comment about how "coaches don't fix locker rooms."

That's how you lose respect and how you lose locker rooms.

We will see. Are there warning signs? Absolutely. The mark of a good head coach is the ability to bounce back and put a crappy season in the rear view mirror. Next season will be telling for sure. But not now.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,824
Reaction score
14,840
Location
Chandler, Az
Mike Jurecki ‏@mikejurecki 4m4 minutes ago
Larry Fitzgerald on Michael Floyd release: “I can’t give you my true feelings because people might get upset. Mike is like my brother."

Fitz went on to add that several GMs have called him about Michael Floyd and Fitz said he highly recommends him.

Being compared to Marcus Fitzgerald isn't a good thing...

I kid, I kid...
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Ah yes. Where are the good old days of "One Heart Beat"? Where 7 wins was a great season.

Ha! Good one!

I know this may sound odd, but if it takes my head coach publicly ripping the refs, the league and his own players and never being humble enough to share in the blame when things go wrong---in order to win---then I don't want to win like that. Not like that.
 

Cbus cardsfan

Back to Back ASFN FFL Champion
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
21,513
Reaction score
7,784
I know several highs school bball coaches that have been to practices and Mike Kzysewski(sp. butchered) is as foul mouthed in practice as any coach around. A quote one coach told me is , "he makes Bobby Knight look like a saint." And he ******* to the refs to no end. So I don't buy those arguments at all. The Oregon coach that just got fired banned the use of foul language and being hard on players. Look how that worked out for him.

BA coaches and leads the way he sees best and has been very successful at it. Just because some don't agree with it doesn't make them right. It's the NFL, if players are too thinned skin to take any criticism, they are in the wrong business.
 

SO91

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Posts
3,046
Reaction score
371
All the others I could live with - this one really got my goat. Not good to call out one of the captains so harshly.

He's been an utter failure trying to cover as a corner, which is what BA was asked about. Great ST player, atrocious CB. He wasn't lying or sugar coating it.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Fitzgerald: GMs, coaches called me about Floyd
Posted by Darren Urban on December 15, 2016 – 2:04 pm

Cardinals wide receiver Larry Fitzgerald said he got “a couple calls” Wednesday from around the league from “GMs and coaches” asking about Michael Floyd now that Floyd had been released.

“I told them my honest opinion of him, that I think he’ll be a great pickup for whoever,” Fitzgerald said. “You’ve got a young guy who is hungry, who is eager to make plays in a contract year, has a chip on his shoulder now — not that he didn’t already have one — and I hope he makes a big playoff run.”

As for Floyd being released in the first place, Fitzgerald said he sees Floyd as a family member.

“I can’t give you my true feeling because people might get upset with what I really feel,” Fitzgerald said. “But Mike is like my brother. I’ve known him since he was 13 years old, we come from the same place. I love him dearly. Like any other family member, I never turn my back on him no matter what. I”m going to support him.”

Fitzgerald said he saw Floyd Wednesday and would be seeing him again today.

“It’s important during these times to support people when they are going through some stuff,” Fitzgerald said.

He also took issue with some descriptions of Floyd. “Contrary to reports, Mike was never an immature guy,” Fitzgerald said. “He had his incident in college, but we all make mistakes … Mike is a good young man. He’s someone I highly respect and care about deeply. I just hope he finds himself in a situation he is happy with and he has a long and prosperous career.”
 

TJ

Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
35,153
Reaction score
21,452
Location
South Bay
I know several highs school bball coaches that have been to practices and Mike Kzysewski(sp. butchered) is as foul mouthed in practice as any coach around. A quote one coach told me is , "he makes Bobby Knight look like a saint." And he ******* to the refs to no end. So I don't buy those arguments at all. The Oregon coach that just got fired banned the use of foul language and being hard on players. Look how that worked out for him.

BA coaches and leads the way he sees best and has been very successful at it. Just because some don't agree with it doesn't make them right. It's the NFL, if players are too thinned skin to take any criticism, they are in the wrong business.

Ding ding ding!!!!

Sounds like Mitch needs more education on the culture of coaching.
 

TJ

Frank Kaminsky is my Hero.
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
35,153
Reaction score
21,452
Location
South Bay
Fitzgerald: GMs, coaches called me about Floyd
Posted by Darren Urban on December 15, 2016 – 2:04 pm

Cardinals wide receiver Larry Fitzgerald said he got “a couple calls” Wednesday from around the league from “GMs and coaches” asking about Michael Floyd now that Floyd had been released.

“I told them my honest opinion of him, that I think he’ll be a great pickup for whoever,” Fitzgerald said. “You’ve got a young guy who is hungry, who is eager to make plays in a contract year, has a chip on his shoulder now — not that he didn’t already have one — and I hope he makes a big playoff run.”

As for Floyd being released in the first place, Fitzgerald said he sees Floyd as a family member.

“I can’t give you my true feeling because people might get upset with what I really feel,” Fitzgerald said. “But Mike is like my brother. I’ve known him since he was 13 years old, we come from the same place. I love him dearly. Like any other family member, I never turn my back on him no matter what. I”m going to support him.”

Fitzgerald said he saw Floyd Wednesday and would be seeing him again today.

“It’s important during these times to support people when they are going through some stuff,” Fitzgerald said.

He also took issue with some descriptions of Floyd. “Contrary to reports, Mike was never an immature guy,” Fitzgerald said. “He had his incident in college, but we all make mistakes … Mike is a good young man. He’s someone I highly respect and care about deeply. I just hope he finds himself in a situation he is happy with and he has a long and prosperous career.”

So the antecedent to this tirade is the team cutting Floyd? Dude, do you have any clue as to why Floyd was cut?

You need to take a step back from the computer for a while, man.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
I know several highs school bball coaches that have been to practices and Mike Kzysewski(sp. butchered) is as foul mouthed in practice as any coach around. A quote one coach told me is , "he makes Bobby Knight look like a saint." And he ******* to the refs to no end. So I don't buy those arguments at all. The Oregon coach that just got fired banned the use of foul language and being hard on players. Look how that worked out for him.

BA coaches and leads the way he sees best and has been very successful at it. Just because some don't agree with it doesn't make them right. It's the NFL, if players are too thinned skin to take any criticism, they are in the wrong business.

Coack K is coaching hand-picked McDonald All-Americans every year. That said, I have never heard him disparage a player publicly. In practice is where it belongs and where it should stay. This is not a fitting analogy.

I am sick of the "this is the NFL" argument, like all modes of human decency are thrown out the window. At the end of the day, it is about respect. Respect for people and respect for the game.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
556,091
Posts
5,432,998
Members
6,329
Latest member
cardinals2025
Top