Backtracking Cardinals

[LarryStalling]

AFter much thought, I dislike most everything that Whiz has done for Arizona. Making the Sb was not Whiz. It was the fact that a HoF qb finally realized that if he wanted to ensure his legend that he needed to finish his career with a flurry and go out on a high note. Mind you that Whiz was not the playcaller during that run, which he insisted on last year. His development of defensive talent is woeful and tyrannical rule of the team seems almost obsessive. He seemingly runs off talent that should be enticed to stay here and some of them even go elsewhere for less money. Skelton should stay close at hand because he will see plenty of action this season with the Oliine that this team will put in front of the qb.

 

[82CardsGrad]

We drafted DRC, we started DRC, DRC helped us get to the Superbowl.

Since then, DRC has been exposed and as far as we can tell, there are maturity issues.

DRC has value to land a potential starting QB, one we likely wouldn't get without DRC.

That is not a wasted first round pick, that is good business sense.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Leinarts failure was on Leinart not the coaches or anyone else. You cannot coach a duck to be a swan. The duck may have looked like a swan but he was not.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Excellent post Mitch, I agree with nearly all of everything you say.

Oh, except Leinart sucks, always has, always will.

 

[Mulli]

Excellent post Mitch, I agree with nearly all of everything you say.

Oh, except Leinart sucks, always has, always will.

Excuse me, Mannymoe, but Leinart will be the highest rated FA QB available next year.

 

[splitsecond]

I have to say the only real bust in there is Matty Clipboard. Levi starts, and Beanie still may start. I don't think we can TOTALLY judge him based on last year when our line was what it was and our passing game was non-existent. So all in all, that puts us at "a little better than mediocre" which will still win the West in theory.

 

[DoTheDew]

I agree with most of what you said Mitch, but I think you are wrong on DRC. He is a free-lancer who, while a physical specimen, comes across as a player who has a bad attitude. Sometimes players not developing is because of the player, not the organization. Just like Leinart didn't want to put in the work so too does DRC. It was clear last year that he was not willing to put forth full effort in a bad season. To me that shows a lack of desire. The great players will play with pride regardless of circumstances.

DRC is getting traded because he's more interested in DRC then he is in winning. Leinart was cut because he is too laid back and didn't "want it" bad enough. You of all people, were harping on Leinart's bad attitude last year when everyone else was supporting him and it is completely hypocritical and revisionist to turn around now and blame the coaching staff for his failure.

Levi was simply a reach. No one outside of Arizona would have drafted him top 10. Maybe he is out of position, but he was a tackle in college and was graded a tackle by every pre-draft publication so it's not a stretch to play him at tackle, whereas Big had lots of questions about his ability to play tackle at the NFL level.

So going back

Leinart- We *had* to draft him circumstantially, and we *had* to let Warner start after playing so great. Not our faults Leinart's personality couldn't handle it
Levi- Bad reach by a new coach. Should have taken All Day
DRC- Good player, has personal problems. He's going to be a headache for the Eagles down the road. He's not Revis or Asomuagha. He's replaceable.
Wells- Lots of injuries have really set him back and Hightower has outperformed his draft status. If Hightower was a typical 5th rounder Beanie would be starter. Things like that happen to every team.
Dan Williams- TBD. If we bring back Robinson and start him I will personally smack Whiz in the face.
PP7- We're basically anointing him without even seeing him in camp, just like we did with Levi. I like him, but I don't like that. I expect him to struggle a lot this year with a shorter learning period, playing a difficult position, and not being known as a fast learner. He'll wow us sometimes, and get torched a lot too this year.

 

[Mitch]

I agree with most of what you said Mitch, but I think you are wrong on DRC. He is a free-lancer who, while a physical specimen, comes across as a player who has a bad attitude. Sometimes players not developing is because of the player, not the organization. Just like Leinart didn't want to put in the work so too does DRC. It was clear last year that he was not willing to put forth full effort in a bad season. To me that shows a lack of desire. The great players will play with pride regardless of circumstances.

DRC is getting traded because he's more interested in DRC then he is in winning. Leinart was cut because he is too laid back and didn't "want it" bad enough. You of all people, were harping on Leinart's bad attitude last year when everyone else was supporting him and it is completely hypocritical and revisionist to turn around now and blame the coaching staff for his failure.

I am not putting all or even most of the blame on the coaches, Dew.

But---Whiz and Leinart were bad chemistry from the get-go.

ML was Denny's boy---and Denny knew how to stroke players' egos.

Whiz---on the other hand---that's not his style.

ML needed to be coddled---as Pete Carroll stated last year.

As for DRC---your points are well made and I agree with them, for the most part. What we may never know is how well DRC would have responded to Ray Horton and DeShea Townsend---so I hadn't given up hope that DRC could develop into an elite cover CB. I still think with the right coaching he can.

 

[DoTheDew]

I am not putting all or even most of the blame on the coaches, Dew.

But---Whiz and Leinart were bad chemistry from the get-go.

ML was Denny's boy---and Denny knew how to stroke players' egos.

Whiz---on the other hand---that's not his style.

ML needed to be coddled---as Pete Carroll stated last year.

As for DRC---your points are well made and I agree with them, for the most part. What we may never know is how well DRC would have responded to Ray Horton and DeShea Townsend---so I hadn't given up hope that DRC could develop into an elite cover CB. I still think with the right coaching he can.

Well, I agree with the bad chemistry between ML and Whiz, keeping Green wasn't an option. Whiz was the coach we wanted and you can't let a guy who's been on the team for 1 year change your mind on that. Stuff like that simply happens to teams. New coaches come in and old guys don't fit anymore. What we were supposed to do? Look into the future and know that Green would get fired and the guy we would hire wouldn't fit with ML, so not even draft him? Not everyone has a crystal ball like you do.

 

[Mulli]

I am not putting all or even most of the blame on the coaches, Dew.

But---Whiz and Leinart were bad chemistry from the get-go.

ML was Denny's boy---and Denny knew how to stroke players' egos.

Whiz---on the other hand---that's not his style.

ML needed to be coddled---as Pete Carroll stated last year.

As for DRC---your points are well made and I agree with them, for the most part. What we may never know is how well DRC would have responded to Ray Horton and DeShea Townsend---so I hadn't given up hope that DRC could develop into an elite cover CB. I still think with the right coaching he can.

I seem to recall a certain poster calling Dennis Green a moron for starting Warner instead of Leinart

 

[Mitch]

I seem to recall a certain poster calling Dennis Green a moron for starting Warner instead of Leinart

I called Green a moron for other things---Leinart was starting soon enough.

 

[Mulli]

I called Green a moron for other things---Leinart was starting soon enough.

You sure about that. All in fun, Mitch. Nothing else to post about right now.


http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1106229&postcount=1

 

[82CardsGrad]

You sure about that. All in fun, Mitch. Nothing else to post about right now.


http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1106229&postcount=1

Damn you're good...


Mitch - if that post supplied by the Mullinator doesn't cause you to take pause, nothing will...

 

[Mulli]

Damn you're good...


Mitch - if that post supplied by the Mullinator doesn't cause you to take pause, nothing will...

I just did a search. All in fun.

 

[Catfish]

Walter, Your assessment of the Card's backtracking constantly is as astute as anything I have ever read on this board. It is the defining feature of this organization in my opinion, and will more than likely remain its nemesis until the organization changes the people who make these decisions rather than constantly changing the players and coaches in stop-gap fashion to cure the ills. To this end, Rod Graves is much like the little dutch boy who plugged the hole in the dike with his hand,----- only in this case, he keeps moving from one hole to the next, and on again until he completes the circle and begins again at the original hole. He never actually fixes the leaks,----- just keeps moving the plug.

I am sure that part of that comes from the owner being penny-wise but pound foolish. But more than that, there seems to be a genuine reluctance there to join the 20th century, yet here we are more than a 10th of the way into the 21st. I truly believe that until the ownership decides to turn the football operations over to a football-knowlegable front office, and simply stay out his his way so that he can function with the rest of the league, we will continue to be part of the league's problem instead of part of its solution. How embarrassing is it that the more successful owners have had to install a floor to the wage spending, in order to force this franchise to quit hoarding money so that the elite teams have to, (then), turn around and share their profits with them. At least, the league has taken it upon themselves to force these reluctant owners to spend more in order to put out a better product. We can thank the recent negotiations for that, because we probably would never have done that on our own.

By the way, please do not give in to those who can't, (or won't), seem to take the time to read your wonderful prose. Many of us truly enjoy your contributions to this forum, and look forward to your contributions. Those who choose, can simply fast-forward on to the next thread. This board would suffer greatly if we lost your brilliantly conceived efforts.

 

[Mitch]

I just did a search. All in fun.

I stand by what I said---at the time under Green Warner was running a sluggish offense...and for a variety of reasons Green was coaching like a moron.

Regardless, I don't claim to be right 100% of the time, Mulli. And i do not have to be right---all I try to do, like everyone else is speak my mind and stay strong in what I believe.

 

[Mitch]

Walter, Your assessment of the Card's backtracking constantly is as astute as anything I have ever read on this board. It is the defining feature of this organization in my opinion, and will more than likely remain its nemesis until the organization changes the people who make these decisions rather than constantly changing the players and coaches in stop-gap fashion to cure the ills. To this end, Rod Graves is much like the little dutch boy who plugged the hole in the dike with his hand,----- only in this case, he keeps moving from one hole to the next, and on again until he completes the circle and begins again at the original hole. He never actually fixes the leaks,----- just keeps moving the plug.

I am sure that part of that comes from the owner being penny-wise but pound foolish. But more than that, there seems to be a genuine reluctance there to join the 20th century, yet here we are more than a 10th of the way into the 21st. I truly believe that until the ownership decides to turn the football operations over to a football-knowlegable front office, and simply stay out his his way so that he can function with the rest of the league, we will continue to be part of the league's problem instead of part of its solution. How embarrassing is it that the more successful owners have had to install a floor to the wage spending, in order to force this franchise to quit hoarding money so that the elite teams have to, (then), turn around and share their profits with them. At least, the league has taken it upon themselves to force these reluctant owners to spend more in order to put out a better product. We can thank the recent negotiations for that, because we probably would never have done that on our own.

By the way, please do not give in to those who can't, (or won't), seem to take the time to read your wonderful prose. Many of us truly enjoy your contributions to this forum, and look forward to your contributions. Those who choose, can simply fast-forward on to the next thread. This board would suffer greatly if we lost your brilliantly conceived efforts.

Hey Catfish!

I wasn't totally on board with the Kolb interest---especially at the price offered.

But---I have to say this---the Cardinals did their preparation---as Whiz said, they had a plan---and I have to give them a lot of credit for being bold and having such strong conviction in their plan.

I had lost a good deal of trust in DRC---but was anxious to see if Horton and Townsend could get him back on track. Still, DRC did not seem like a fit in Horton's defense, regardless. So what I am thrilled with is that we have Patrick Peterson...and two young RCBs in Greg Toler and A.J. Jefferson that I believe are beautifully suited for the system.

So---I feel good about the trade at this point---and feel happy that we didn't out of desperation reach for a QB at #5. We took the best player---and that too speaks well, imo, for the direction of the franchise.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Mulli]

I stand by what I said---at the time under Green Warner was running a sluggish offense...and for a variety of reasons Green was coaching like a moron.

Regardless, I don't claim to be right 100% of the time, Mulli. And i do not have to be right---all I try to do, like everyone else is speak my mind and stay strong in what I believe.

Of course. Of course. But Green wasn't exactly stroking Leinart's ego.

I am fairly certain I agreed with you at that time. So there you go.

 

[Catfish]

Hey Catfish!

I wasn't totally on board with the Kolb interest---especially at the price offered.

But---I have to say this---the Cardinals did their preparation---as Whiz said, they had a plan---and I have to give them a lot of credit for being bold and having such strong conviction in their plan.

I had lost a good deal of trust in DRC---but was anxious to see if Horton and Townsend could get him back on track. Still, DRC did not seem like a fit in Horton's defense, regardless. So what I am thrilled with is that we have Patrick Peterson...and two young RCBs in Greg Toler and A.J. Jefferson that I believe are beautifully suited for the system.

So---I feel good about the trade at this point---and feel happy that we didn't out of desperation reach for a QB at #5. We took the best player---and that too speaks well, imo, for the direction of the franchise.

What are your thoughts?

I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts. The entire organization seems to be on a mission to cure the ills this go-round. So far, their efforts have seemingly been attentive and well directed.

With the locking up of Kolb, and Darin Colledge, and with supposed diligent work being done to bring in Malcolm Floyd, and (from what Jureki says), Manny Lawson, and Stephan Tulloch or James Jones, the effort seems to be there, and so too hopefully will the results be there. I just think it is a shame that we have not done so previously, (and likely would not have done so now), without being forced to spend up to the Cap floor.

In any event, I alluded to the fact that there would be a narrow window of opportunity to get a lot of things done, and it seems that they are making great efforts to do exactly that. I applaud them for what they have already done, and hope that they are as successful in the completion of their other endeavors as well. It would be wonderful to see the LB and D-Line problems addressed as well as the QB situation has been.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I would have liked to see that also, but when your team has a losing season and you don't have a QB, a tough choice had to be made - and they made it. Think about it, when was the last time we actually traded something of value and got something back of value? Kolb may not work out, but it isn't for lack of trying and we aren't killing our core to bring him here ala 1998/1999 with Plummer's contract.

We are still the Cards, just not the same old Cards. We have found new ways of shooting our feet, I hope we hit a target this time instead.

I see the gist of your syllogism here, b8rt...but my point is that if we had drafted the franchise QB in the 1st round, we wouldn't have to resort to trading other 1st rounders and in this case a 2nd rounder as well.

Plus---I would have liked to know how improved DRC would have been under a much stronger defensive coordinator---who happens to be a DB specialist.

We won't have that chance now.

 

[Duckjake]

Good players while playing with the team: Simeon Rice, Jamir Miller, Eric Swann, DRC, Fitzgerald, David Boston, and Antrelle Rolle.

Busts: Ernest Dye, Tom Knight, Andre Wadsworth, Wendell Bryant, Bryant Johnson, Matt Leinart, Levi Brown.

Unrealized Potential with Cardinals (guys who either never showed it with the team or were solid, but unspectacular players): Garrison Hearst, LJ Shelton, Thomas Jones, Leonard Davis, and Calvin Pace.

Jury still out: Beanie Wells and Dan Williams.

You are way off on this. Good players, Rice, Miller,Fitz and Boston. Swann was the reason I only went back to '91 when he was drafted. Rice hated Arizona, Miller had contract squabbles, Boston-steroids, first round draft picks with issues. Rolle had been bashed endlessly on this board. DRC being called a failure is what started this discussion. None of them saw a second contract.

You have shown only 1 player who has lived up to his first round status in 20 years. Just like I said. If a franchise is having issues of various nature with every first round draft pick while going 5-11 almost every year its not the players. Its the scouts or the coaches or the culture.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You are way off on this.

I disagree, but I think your litimus is way off which I'll explain below.

Good players, Rice, Miller,Fitz and Boston. Swann was the reason I only went back to '91 when he was drafted. Rice hated Arizona, Miller had contract squabbles, Boston-steroids, first round draft picks with issues. Rolle had been bashed endlessly on this board. DRC being called a failure is what started this discussion. None of them saw a second contract.

It doesn't matter what the circumstances were, all were good players with us. Are you going to actually refute that? Swann, Boston, Fitz, and Rolle all went to Pro Bowl. All lived up to their first round status. What other measurement do you expect from a first round pick. Whether we resigned them is irrelevant on whether the player is considered a "good pick" or not

You have shown only 1 player who has lived up to his first round status in 20 years.

No, I've shown you multiple. The serviceable players are also ok to have from the first round; not every guy that you draft in round one is going to be a Pro Bowler.

Just like I said. If a franchise is having issues of various nature with every first round draft pick while going 5-11 almost every year its not the players. Its the scouts or the coaches or the culture.

We agree here, and this what I find puzzling. How can Rod Graves continue to be employed, year after year when we continue to have the same problems? Is he that much of a brown nosing, yes man?

 

[Duckjake]

I disagree, but I think your litimus is way off which I'll explain below.



It doesn't matter what the circumstances were, all were good players with us. Are you going to actually refute that? Swann, Boston, Fitz, and Rolle all went to Pro Bowl. All lived up to their first round status. What other measurement do you expect from a first round pick. Whether we resigned them is irrelevant on whether the player is considered a "good pick" or not



No, I've shown you multiple. The serviceable players are also ok to have from the first round; not every guy that you draft in round one is going to be a Pro Bowler.



We agree here, and this what I find puzzling. How can Rod Graves continue to be employed, year after year when we continue to have the same problems? Is he that much of a brown nosing, yes man?

This is where we totally disagree. I'm only talking about not keeping our first round picks or really getting first round value for them. I never said none of our first round picks since 1991 were ever any good. You made that assumption all on your own. To me first round value is having a guy play 7-10 years for you.

Another thing we disagree on is that you don't think every first round draft pick should be a pro Bowler but I do. My standards are a little higher than yours I guess but that's neither here nor there the real deal is that to only have one first round pro bowler still on your team is ridiculous. Even worse is to only have two former first round picks still on your roster who have started more than 2 games for you. And one of them is being called the worst player at his position in the NFL.