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Barkley really looked phenomenal!!! If Browns don't take him at #1, the Giants will run to the podium for him at #2.
Baker Mayfield making a push to be the #1 overall pick?
- Thread starter oaken1
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Barkley really looked phenomenal!!! If Browns don't take him at #1, the Giants will run to the podium for him at #2.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I don't understand that reference. Why is Doug Flutie akin to derogatory? I think his career shows that had he been given a chance and put in the right system, he'd have been productive in the NFL. The Bears were a QB wasteland and Ditka was no friend to the QB position so it's no surprise Flutie didn't succeed there. But, when he got his 2nd chance in Buffalo and then in SD, he showed he could play, produce and win games. If Mayfield's another version of that, I'd take it.
BW52
Registered
Short guy syndrome.I don`t think what worked at Oklahoma will work in the NFl.Sure BM flashed some skills but he won`t be running from defnseively challenged Big12 teams nearly every week.He might have a adequate arm but he is still a tad shorter but i see him as a spot starter and backup guy.IMHO lamar Jackson mght need more coaching to get ready but he has electrifying talent with a great arm and mobility.
Josh Allen is a big guy with big arm but can he fix his issues with accuracy also and decisions.Every QB in the draft has some positives and negatives.The question is can those things be fixed and how long to fix them? I do think Rosen and Darnold are the 2 guys closest to be NFL ready.With Mayfield i think he is as good as he will ever be.Jackson IMHO has a tremendous ceiling and the question is do you want instant gratication (Darnold,Rosen) or make a flashy statement (mayfield) and buy into his hype or maybe wait half a season (Allen) or maybe have your QBOF mop up duty while getting NFL Coaching(Jackson).That`s the way i see things right now.I am playing it conservative with Jackson because i think you have to look longer ahead than this season.Of course there is no magic formula or crystal ball for any of us to know how these guys turn out.Ehat i know is i watched Lamar Jackson 3 years and he improved every year while his offensive help got worse yearly.I know he has a great work ethic,is a humble kid with great character and willing to work hard to improve.What`s not to like?I guess it comes down to how each GM and Coach look at each QB and hwere and how said QBs fit .
OP
OP
except Lauletta is a third round pick. He is not a top QB...he is a top QB project. There is virtually zero chance Lauletta is drafted before 47. Luke Faulk may wont likely go before 47 and he is a better QB right now than Kyle Lauletta......maybe not three years from now, but right now... the difference is, Faulk is a QB prospect...Lauletta is a QB project...I like the kid, but lets not get enamored with "possibilities".... if you put Lauletta on an NFL field tomorrow the defense would short circuit his brain...due to level of competition, coaching...he isnt anywhere near the level of even a PAC 12 QB at this point...spending a first round pick on him?? aint gonna happen... Keim would have to really...REALLY love the kid to consider him at 47...he just aint a top 50 player in this draft
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I think we may be talking about two different things. You say Flutie like it's a bad thing while I think of Flutie as an exception to the rule. I agree in general that an undersized QB has a tougher row to hoe and I wouldn't generally feel too optimistic about his chances. I wouldn't necessarily rule one out but I wouldn't start with one if I had any choices.
I also agree that it's a total crapshoot with QB's. That special "it" factor is what it usually boils down to and there's no way to measure it or even identify it until they hit the NFL. It seems like you feel Jackson has that but athletic guys that are big projects scare me. Maybe he works out and plays well at the NFL level but I wouldn't take one of those guys in the first round. It seems far too rare for them to eventually turn into franchise guys. I've been wrong about guys like Newton, Wentz and Watson translating to the NFL in recent years so I don't think my opinion is iron clad or anything.
In today's game, athleticism plays a much bigger part than it used to so I have to keep adjusting my perception about these guys. Mayfield included. Normally, I wouldn't even really consider him but this isn't the same league that it used to be and guys who don't play in a pro style, can't make all the throws and don't have good mechanics aren't necessarily unfit for the NFL.
As far as Jackson, I don't like how he throws with just his arm. Don't like how he sets up in the pocket and seems flat if he doesn't plant and throw. Don't like his pass placement. Doesn't seem quite fast enough to be faster than NFL guys. Just too much I don't like about his game. Plus, I hated his NFLN combine interview. Did not come across as very articulate or well spoken. Which may not mean anything about his football IQ but it isn't a good sign to me when a guy doesn't communicate clearly.
OP
OP
Bakers strength, and his future in the NFL, is based on his football IQ. I agree that he is likely maxed out as far as physical development. But his ceiling is based on his brain...reading defenses, diagnosing plays... these are things he can still get better at... guys like Brees, Montana, and Manning made good careers out of being smart QB's without being great athletes.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I don't disagree but Mayfield is too far away from those guys to use them as any kind of comparison. Ryan Fitzpatrick would be a more realistic name to bring up IMO.
Zeno
Ancient
BW52 you are such a Jackson homer it really is hard to take your takes seriously. We all have our favorites, I was the same way with Jake Plummer when he was coming out of ASU. It just means it is difficult for you to look at him and other QBs objectively.
I like Jackson but I see his flaws, even then I would have no problem with him being drafted at 15, but if Mayfield and him are both there at 15 there is no way I'd select Jackson.
I like Jackson but I see his flaws, even then I would have no problem with him being drafted at 15, but if Mayfield and him are both there at 15 there is no way I'd select Jackson.
OP
OP
how so?? Physically?? Surely not mentally... he may not have the football IQ Manning had coming out of college but he is certainly on par with Brees or Montana as far as FB smarts go.
unless you think he just doesnt have the maturity to put it together... that would be a valid concern. but the kid is smart and he knows the game very well.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Speaking of height, have you guys met many NFL QB's? My buddy's met a few of them at events and for example, says that Montana and Young, both listed as 6'2" are nowhere near that height. Ryan Fitzpatrick is listed at 6'2" also. Mayfield is listed as 6'1" so it wouldn't seem like a significant difference(also considering Brees is listed at 6'0"). But I sure don't feel like these numbers are particularly accurate.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Because Montana and Brees are two of the greatest QB's to ever play the position and have accomplished all there is to accomplish as NFL QB's. Putting Mayfield alongside those guys in just about any way is far too generous. Fitzpatrick scored a 48 on the wunderlick and wasn't a physical specimen and is a much more realistic name to be putting out there.
Who knows what Mayfield will become but putting his name alongside Manning, Montana and Brees is ludicrous. A high football IQ isn't particularly rare and most QB's who make it to the NFL are pretty driven and pretty smart. Giving Mayfield credit for being just like the greatest ever is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think?
OP
OP
I threw those out there because those are guys who made their fame as smart QB's who were not physically gifted but took their game to another level with smart play. If Mayfield is going to be a success in the NFL he is going to have to do the same thing... they did it... he can do it... not hyperbole at all... guys like Montana and Brees are the only reason Mayfield is looking at being a first round pick... because they succeeded.
Had no smaller QB's ever performed at a very high level Mayfield would be a second round pick at best simply because he is short
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Montana and Brees weren't even first round picks though. You might be moving the goal posts a tad, too. Didn't you have Manning in your list of Mayfield "comps"? It's just too much to act like Mayfield's even remotely similar to 2/3 of the greatest of all time. Montana and Brees are the exceptions to the rule, not cause for an undersized, physically limited guy to be drafted in the first round.
There is a LONG list of cerebral guys who didn't have the physical skills to make it as an NFL starter, much less become the greatest of all time. Why not say Mayfield is like Sean Payton or Doug Pederson? Or Flutie or Fitzpatrick? Don't those seem a bit more reasonable before the guy's even taken a snap...heck, even been on an NFL team?
OP
OP
well... I compared him to Flutie months ago... but he is 3 inches taller than Flutie... Montna wasnt a first rounder because he wasnt very impressive at ND and he was small.... Brees was a bit more impressive at Purdue but was also small... but since Montana was good, teams were more comfortable drafting a guy like Brees in the second round... but then Brees was great, so teams are more comfortable drafting a guy like Mayfield in the first... its a progression... if no QB under 6'3" had ever been successful then Mayfield would not be getting drafted before the sixth if at all. But history has shown teams can take a chance on a smaller guy if he is a smart player.....some succeed, some fail, and here we are.... Baker Mayfield at 6 foot tall is going to be a top 10 pick in the draft.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I guess we'll just have to disagree. One great QB every couple of generations doesn't make me think the NFL is ignoring all of the guys who didn't pan out. I mean, we're still just talking about possibilities. Mayfield is being touted as cerebral but we have absolutely no way to know if what he has is going to translate at the NFL level.
Like I said, Ryan Fitzpatrick, if one wants to use the cerebral argument, is a much more reasonable comp though. You can't get more cerebral than that guy and he's an undersized QB who's made it as a starter. Do you think it's more likely that Mayfield has a chance to reproduce what Fitzpatrick has done or what Brees has done?
BW52
Registered
Zeno you call it being a homer.I call it because i watched Jackson for 3 years.I see the flaws and i see the good points also.Being more familiar with a Qb does tend to make one lean that direction i agree.I think there are two different ways of looking at and deciding on a QB. Number 1-is this guy the best he can be right now.With limited improvement because that QB is as good as he will ever be.
NUMBER 2- Said QB has some flaws and needs Pro Coaching but has a possible ceiling above the other said QB (or QBs).
That is what the GM and Coach have to decide on during the draft.Immediate results now (good or Bad) or possible better results a year down the road.Nobody has a crystal ball and knows for sure.Zeno calling me a homer because i like Jackson is your perogative but i think its silly to discount my opinion as just being a "Homer".As for both being there at #15 i would take Jackson because IMO he has a higher ceiling than Mayfield is more athletic than Mayfield,has a stronger arm than Mayfield,has no character issues.Trying my best to be objective but in all honesty i go with the Qb i am most comfortable with.
ARZCardinals
ASFN Lifer
Peyton lived, breathed and died football all day. He lived it...he was in the film room till 10pm every night and helping open the doors in the morning....and not because he had to. He loved it! BA said Peyton often stayed in the building longer than he did.
That's one thing I don't know about Baker....is does he put in the study time...Johnny M never studied and I think the studying issue is real with every incoming qb. Reading books on successful qb's (reading Bruce Arians book now - almost done) he says they need to have played multiple sports when they were younger and they must LOVE studying....if they don't.....they won't make it. I agree with him.
That's one thing I don't know about Baker....is does he put in the study time...Johnny M never studied and I think the studying issue is real with every incoming qb. Reading books on successful qb's (reading Bruce Arians book now - almost done) he says they need to have played multiple sports when they were younger and they must LOVE studying....if they don't.....they won't make it. I agree with him.
Zeno
Ancient
I wasn't trying to insult you or anything, just sometimes we need to take a step back and recognize our judgment can be a little clouded especially when we have someone we really like.
BW52
Registered
No problem Zeno.You know what will probably happen........Darnold,Rosen,Mayfield,Jackson,Allen all are gone before Cards pick because SK and Wilks didn`t want to trade up because of costs in picks.Then what happens?
Solar7
Go Suns
It's why we should be pursuing Cousins or have a really firm plan in line to bring in multiple QBs to compete with what will likely be a 2nd round pick or something.
I have a feeling something like this is going to happen (although I do think we will have a shot at at least one of Mayfield or Jackson), but we're in a rough spot.
OP
OP
to count on...or speculate that an incoming QB in the NFL is going to fail is low hanging fruit. Its like saying "The Cardinals wont make the playoffs"... yeah, most of the time you are correct.
I kinda like Mayfields potential so I look at great QB's with similar circumstances to see what he could be. You apparently dont like him so you look to similar QB's to see all the reasons he could fail.
Honestly I think the kid is boom or bust.... he will either be a great QB or he wont make it past his rookie deal, ... thats what I think...and I am sure whichever team he goes to will play a large role in that failure or success.
I would take Mayfield at 15... but if I had the #1 I would take Sam Darnold every day of the week and twice on sundays.
I actually hope cleveland buys in and takes Mayfield in a way. It would be interesting to see if he can get them to the playoffs a few years in a row..... the kid could be a legend in Ohio if he pulled that off...
my dream scenario has the Browns grabbing Barkley at 1, then the Giants grab Rosen at 2...and we trade up to three and snatch Darnold...and cleveland gets Mayfield at four
but draft dreams never come true for fans, lol
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I don't know, I look at it as being a little more realistic. In this particular case, saying that Mayfield is like a Flutie or Fitzpatrick actually makes me root for the guy. Saying he's the next Brees or Montana makes me call BS. But, it could just be a pet peeve of mine.
I don't like when ANY QB gets lumped in with the all-time greats. Just because a guy has a strong arm doesn't mean he should be compared with Dan Marino. Because when the comparison is made to one of the greats, it's because someone is trying to sell something instead of doing a realistic evaluation. If a guy's got a strong arm, all it means is he's got a strong arm and one could say he resembles Vinny Testaverde in that regard and it wouldn't conjure false impressions.
Robert KlemkoVerified account@RobertKlemko 3m3 minutes ago
Baker Mayfield's combine:
-- 3:30am drug test
-- Dorsey's 1st question: "So you like food trucks?"
-- CLE, NYG and now Jets will fly him in. CLE, NYJ, MIA, N.O. plan private Norman workouts
-- Combine interviews: MIA JAX BUF DEN CLE NYJ NYG NO LAC ARI WAS
Baker Mayfield's combine:
-- 3:30am drug test
-- Dorsey's 1st question: "So you like food trucks?"
-- CLE, NYG and now Jets will fly him in. CLE, NYJ, MIA, N.O. plan private Norman workouts
-- Combine interviews: MIA JAX BUF DEN CLE NYJ NYG NO LAC ARI WAS
Solar7
Go Suns
It would be buffoonery for us to not at least give a combine interview to all of the rookie QBs with potential to go in the first round. But we're not flying him in... surprising.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
I can see how Mayfield's personality may not fit with Steve Keim
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