Barnes to start ahead of Hill

[Superbone]

An *Inconsistent* 3pt shooter, yeah he is

I'll take an "inconsistent" 0.409 career 3 point shooter any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[AceP]

The 40% REGULAR SEASON 3p shooting is the most valuable asset Barbosa has. The only reason he hasn't got traded.

No matter what shortcoming he has, we do need this 40%. That will help us to get a couple of more wins, a better seeding, and most importantly, a lot of minutes off the old legs of Nash, Bell and Hill. I would say his 6M per contract is pretty acceptable for that contribution.

In playoff, Barbosa's 3p% dropped dramatically due to much tougher defence of opponents, and his own poor defence is full explored. So we can't count on him by then. That's why we might want to add or trade Barbosa for another 3p shooter who can shoot and defend in playoff. Right now, we hope Barnes can repeat what he did for GSW.

 

[leclerc]

I've been positive to starting Barnes at small forward and letting Hill run the second unit since we signed Barnes.

I might over estimate how good Barnes is, but my thinking is we have enough starters who need the ball as it is with Amare, Nash and Shaq, so Barnes is better used as a 3 point shooter, rebounder and slasher with that group.

Hill can dominate the ball and let Diaw and Barbosa play off it with the second unit. That means more rest and more effective minutes when he's on the floor. Coach has to manage his minutes so he stays warm like Nash and his sore back.

 

[Superbone]

I've been positive to starting Barnes at small forward and letting Hill run the second unit since we signed Barnes.

I might over estimate how good Barnes is, but my thinking is we have enough starters who need the ball as it is with Amare, Nash and Shaq, so Barnes is better used as a 3 point shooter, rebounder and slasher with that group.

Hill can dominate the ball and let Diaw and Barbosa play off it with the second unit. That means more rest and more effective minutes when he's on the floor. Coach has to manage his minutes so he stays warm like Nash and his sore back.

Sounds about right to me. Makes us deeper than we've been in years.

 

[Irish]

Barbosa's three is a big part of his attraction, but hardly the only one. It is very hard for opponents to guard him when he's rested because he has a very quick first step and is one of the fastest players in the league WHEN DRIBBLEING THE BALL. (Lots of guys can run up and down the court, but slow down when they have to dribble the ball.

IMHO, he has a slowish release and a flat trajectory. This means guys can play off of him somewhat, but it is hard to deal with him if he's "on".

He's actually pretty good as a cutter but was not used that way as much as I'd like

When it comes to offense, what I'd like to see is:

1. Better recognition of weakside defense: He needs to know when he can't get to the basket so he kick the ball out before getting into trouble.

2. Better mid range shot: Everyone knows he's going to try to take it to the basket. Mid range shots are always wide open and much easier than trying to throw the ball over seven foooters.

3. Make "up fakes" before taking off to the basket.

4. Pass the ball to open teammates: Leandro is far to guilty of "tunnel vision" to ever be a point guard, but he should learn to at least be somewhat more aware of the court.

My "dream" is that Porter can get somewhat better defensive technique from Leandro. Perhaps getting away from "trying" to be a point guard will help simplify what he's working on. We can only hope.

 

[nowagimp]

Barbosa's three is a big part of his attraction, but hardly the only one. It is very hard for opponents to guard him when he's rested because he has a very quick first step and is one of the fastest players in the league WHEN DRIBBLEING THE BALL. (Lots of guys can run up and down the court, but slow down when they have to dribble the ball.

IMHO, he has a slowish release and a flat trajectory. This means guys can play off of him somewhat, but it is hard to deal with him if he's "on".

He's actually pretty good as a cutter but was not used that way as much as I'd like

When it comes to offense, what I'd like to see is:

1. Better recognition of weakside defense: He needs to know when he can't get to the basket so he kick the ball out before getting into trouble.

2. Better mid range shot: Everyone knows he's going to try to take it to the basket. Mid range shots are always wide open and much easier than trying to throw the ball over seven foooters.

3. Make "up fakes" before taking off to the basket.

4. Pass the ball to open teammates: Leandro is far to guilty of "tunnel vision" to ever be a point guard, but he should learn to at least be somewhat more aware of the court.

My "dream" is that Porter can get somewhat better defensive technique from Leandro. Perhaps getting away from "trying" to be a point guard will help simplify what he's working on. We can only hope.

LB's slow release and low release point on his shot create problems for points 2,3. After all who cares if he "upfakes" if he cant get his shot off quickly, and what mid range pull up shot works with a slow release and low release point?

LB upfaking a jumper is like Boris Diaw faking a shot. Most defenders are taught to play LB to drive and bother the shot while playing off of him. With Diaw, they play the pass, as he has not proven he is a threat shooting and likes to pass even when driving to the hoop. The only to overcome these defensive strategies is for LB to get a quick release and Diaw to take and make shots.

 

[Irish]

LB's slow release and low release point on his shot create problems for points 2,3. After all who cares if he "upfakes" if he cant get his shot off quickly, and what mid range pull up shot works with a slow release and low release point?

LB upfaking a jumper is like Boris Diaw faking a shot. Most defenders are taught to play LB to drive and bother the shot while playing off of him. With Diaw, they play the pass, as he has not proven he is a threat shooting and likes to pass even when driving to the hoop. The only to overcome these defensive strategies is for LB to get a quick release and Diaw to take and make shots.

Good points. I think an upfake can help freeze defnders from coming up too quickly on his shots if they jump on the fakes too often. But it probably won't help on his drives like it would for most players.

Clearly the mid range shot has to developed from scratch. Using the same style would be a disaster. Ideally a "floater" could be very effective, but it does not appear he has that shot.

 

[Irish]

This seems like old news, but this is Jerry Brown's comments:

http://rimshots.freedomblogging.com/2008/09/22/starting-barnes-makes-a-lot-of-sense/

Starting Barnes makes a lot of sense

September 22nd, 2008, 12:46 pm · 1 Comment · posted by jerrybrown

Whether the decision has been made already — and the beans were spilled by team president Rick Welts at a recent function — or is yet to be determined until training camp, starting Matt Barnes over Grant Hill at small forward makes sense on many levels.

In fact, the only reasons to keep Hill in the starting five are (1) seniority/respect and (2) the fear that you can only heat up Hill so many times a night and it doesn’t make sense to create another scenario each night. But if Hill is going to play far less minutes this season (as is the plan), not starting him goes along with that mindset.

Why start Barnes? Let us count the ways:

*It gives the Suns two (count ‘em, two) starters in their 20s, and a more athletic team out of the gate.

*The Suns need one more 3-point shooter, and Barnes is the closest thing to that among the new players. It makes sense to have him on the floor with Nash, so the Suns can spread the floor with Bell and Barnes on the wings and give Shaquille O’Neal and, specifically, Amare Stoudemire plenty of room to work in the paint. Hill proved last season that his 3-pointer is uncomfortable and inconsistent.

*Barnes is a better rebounder and runs the floor well, the closest thing on the roster (albeit a far cry) to providing the attributes lost with Shawn Marion’s departure.

*Hill coming off the bench gives the Suns another good ballhandler to help Goran Dragic during his minutes on the floor. With Dragic, Hill and/or Boris Diaw on the floor the adjustment curve is easier for Dragic. And he will be playing more against bench players, giving him an advantage in the basketball IQ category.

*Barnes is a solid defender, especially guarding small forwards, and would get a chance to keep good shooters from getting an early rhythm. His defense might earn him some time late in games, but Hill’s smarts (ability to draw fouls and keep away from committing them) and free throw shooting will get him the nod more often than not.

*And if Hill does miss time due to injury, replacing a bench player doesn’t affect as many people, rotation-wise.

All in all, as long as Hill is on board with the program, starting Barnes seems a good fit.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't want to trade Barbosa. He IS a 3 pt shooter. Our big problem with him is that he is not a pg. But now we have shored up that area. Barbosa can come in, run the break, shoot the 3 and provide instant offense if we get bogged down. He will be even more effective as a change of pace in the new offensive scheme AND I expect his D will improve under Porter.

There is no one we could trade him for that would be more valuable to us than he is.

 

[AceP]

I think we overestimated the problem on Barbosa. His weakness is well known, if u put him up against the starting 1-2 guards of the elite teams, what can u expect? Even D'Antoni wouldn't do that, but he run out of option when Hill injuried.

As a reserve, Barbosa is good, or may we say great. Agasint the second unit of any team, he does his job very well. He deserved his 6th man of the year reward, and he can still do that.

The biggest problem on Barbosa is how to use him in playoff. We will probably tighten the rotation and reduce his minutes. Use him strictly only when matchup favor us.

 

[Irish]

I've been looking at stats to see if perhaps fatigue was a factor in Barbos'as decline in shooting percentage. I couldn't find anything to point to it either way. What did stand out was that in the 12 games Barbosa came off the bench, he averaged 44.7% from the field ant 37.0% but when starting he averaged 52.9% and 46.9% for three.

I'm the first to admit that 12 games is a limited sample but it's pretty suggestive. I'm not sure I can get similar stats for previous years, but perhaps the Suns staff can. If he shoots like that as a starter, then maybe this discussion is a lot more serious than we might have ever considered.

 

[AceP]

LB averaged less than 30m, he is way too young to be worn out by that amount of playing time. No it is not about fatigue. It is all about playoff.

That 40% is an average against all NBA teams in 82 regular season games. In playoff u only meet elite teams, some of them, such as the Spurs, will move one gear or 2 up in defence compare to their regular season form. Because of those well known shortcoming of LB, lack of a mid-range game, slow release and low release point, especially, lack of physical size, his % is doomed to fall under playoff defence pressure. There is no quick solution, he is just too short to play SG, he can't guard a 6-6 SG no matter how much he improves his D.

Just my opinion, we won't need to worry too much. We count on Nash and Hill to be completely healthy and well preserved for a playoff run. Barbosa's main job is to help us win more regular season games and reduce those 2's minutes. In playoff, Nash and Hill's minutes will increase while Barbosa's decrease.

 

[leclerc]

I remember when LB checked into the game in past playoffs that sometimes it changed the momentum and speed of the game in our favor. He is very valuable in that regard. I only hope his confidence is better so we can pull him rather quick if he's not on, but it takes a certain type of player to be like that (microwave, heats up in a hurry).

 

[BC867]

I remember when LB checked into the game in past playoffs that sometimes it changed the momentum and speed of the game in our favor. He is very valuable in that regard. I only hope his confidence is better so we can pull him rather quick if he's not on, but it takes a certain type of player to be like that (microwave, heats up in a hurry).

Yup, instant offense. But not a starter and not a closer. That's his best contribution to the Suns. That's his only strong contribution.

 

[nowagimp]

I've been looking at stats to see if perhaps fatigue was a factor in Barbos'as decline in shooting percentage. I couldn't find anything to point to it either way. What did stand out was that in the 12 games Barbosa came off the bench, he averaged 44.7% from the field ant 37.0% but when starting he averaged 52.9% and 46.9% for three.

Yeah with nash running the offense everybody gets better, more open shots. Just ask JJ who shot 47% next to nash, he'll never sniff that again.

the kicker with LB is that when heavily defended he can nbe stopped from 3 funneled to the hoop and the defensive big man. If he had a good pull up, he'd be insane, but he doesnt have that. If only the suns had a coach that could help him get it, but I dont know who that would be.

 

[Irish]

More than developing a floater (nice as that would be), his real need is to gain court awareness. When he's beaten someone and help is coming over, someone is open. If he rarely passess once he has taken off, then he's a lot easier to respond to.

 

[Errntknght]

A couple of years ago when Dan D' was coaching him intensively, Leandro was showing flashes of a promising mid-range game. Last year absolutely nada. I expect he never got to the point where he was comfortable in mid range and, in the regular season, he gets along quite well without it. Major coaching blunder not to insist that he not only keep shooting it but expanding it - so when he gets into the playoffs and needs the mid range game, its ready to rock and roll.

Another thing that disappeared was his cuts to the hoop. Teams got onto that early baseline cut from the left corner, as NBA teams will do when you overdo one play, so he abandoned the whole concept. What a coaching staff!

 

[mojorizen7]

Yeah with nash running the offense everybody gets better, more open shots. Just ask JJ who shot 47% next to nash, he'll never sniff that again.

the kicker with LB is that when heavily defended he can nbe stopped from 3 funneled to the hoop and the defensive big man. If he had a good pull up, he'd be insane, but he doesnt have that. If only the suns had a coach that could help him get it, but I dont know who that would be.

No doubt. A big reason i like the decision to put Barnes in there w/Nash and bring Hill off the bench. Hill doesn't need Nash to get himself(Hill) good shots whereas IMO barnes would struggle to score without Steve there to create for him.

 

[cly2tw]

A couple of years ago when Dan D' was coaching him intensively, Leandro was showing flashes of a promising mid-range game. Last year absolutely nada. I expect he never got to the point where he was comfortable in mid range and, in the regular season, he gets along quite well without it. Major coaching blunder not to insist that he not only keep shooting it but expanding it - so when he gets into the playoffs and needs the mid range game, its ready to rock and roll.

Another thing that disappeared was his cuts to the hoop. Teams got onto that early baseline cut from the left corner, as NBA teams will do when you overdo one play, so he abandoned the whole concept. What a coaching staff!

That required way too much foresight to be expected from DA who insisted to run our starters into ground in regular seasons, so that he had excuse for our failure in playoffs.

 

[Irish]

In the thread on fewer minutes for Hill, http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/fewer-minutes-for-hill-119722.html , they pointed out that Hill had an appendectomy in Jan, which effected the return of a hernia from two years. The one two punch of the two issues seriously reduced Hill's effectivenss. The conclusion I draw is that it was not the number of minutes per se, but having to play before completely healed.

In any case, Hill seems to be "OK" with coming off the bench and playing fewer minutes. So even if he could play extra minutes, he's more concerned about being 100% come the playoffs. Barnes has to live up to expectations, but it sure sounds like this is the plan.

 

[nowagimp]

No doubt. A big reason i like the decision to put Barnes in there w/Nash and bring Hill off the bench. Hill doesn't need Nash to get himself(Hill) good shots whereas IMO barnes would struggle to score without Steve there to create for him.

And I also am cautiously optimistic that Barnes could shoot better form outside with a better setup. Hill just isnt a 3pt shooter, and diaw is worse. The suns need barnes to step up and be that guy.

 

[AceP]

All the other area of Barnes' game r fine, except 3P shooting. Weather he is a better starter over Hill, all depends on that.

There will be an experiementing period, pre-season games, and some games into regular season. If Barnes proves himself a countable 3P threat, he'll get the job. Considering how poorly Hill and Diaw does in that category, my expectation is 36%, which is not too much to ask.

Barnes did well in one full season, pretty good 3P% and 3P made per game. He was a journey man and that was the first ever season he got consistent role and minutes, so I suppose he got the gift. But that was the only season he did well. The next season he got family trouble (death of mom) and injuries, his performance went down quite a bit. We'll have to wait to see how he does here.

 

[Irish]

My read on Barnes is that he got playing time last year dispite his bad shooting becuase of his defense, ability to score on the break, and rebounding. The "poor man's Shawn Marion" seems to be his profile.

What we don't know is how well he handles "catch and shoot". With Nash, the open looks will be there. But he has to just "do it" for us to feel satisfied.

 

[Errntknght]

Does anyone know how Barnes is as a cutter? I have images of him slashing and finishing but I think those are probably on the break or putting back an offensive rebound. Sheesh, I don't know... his hair is slicked back so maybe I'm envisioning Biedrins...

 

[AceP]

Barnes has a balanced offense, he can do a little bit of everything, but not great in anything. His jump shot is not very consistent, but general accuracy is acceptable. Same to his 3P. He does slash and drive, and finish above the rim well, but his dribbling and ball handling skill is limited, don't expect him to create for himself. He is an excellent offensive rebounder, score some put-backs.

He definitely suits up-tempo games better than half-court, but with Shaq protecting defensive board, we'll have a lot of fast break chance.