Bender vs. Chriss

[BC867]

I was in communications intelligence and even I saw the inside of a tank (3 actually). Did you have a medical profile for claustrophobia or something?

Nope, Steve. My best friend encouraged me to join his National Guard home unit and he was Company Clerk. When you're ready to be promoted from E-4 to E-5, you can't continue as Company Clerk, so when he moved into the Battalion section (our armory was also Battalion Headquarters), I was his heir apparent per our First Sergeant. Ultimately, I moved into Battalion as well, when I had earned promotion to E-5 (Spec-5). My MOS was 711H2O (administrative), so that's where I spent all of my time. But I wish I had at least "visited" the inside of a tank. Another buddy of mine spent a lot of his time in a tank during drills and said that I didn't really miss anything.

One day, the Platoon Sergeant and his backup of our platoon were both out and, as next ranking in the platoon, I was called down to do the "All present and accounted for, sir" thing at formation. Then because they had scheduled marching drills afterward, I was pressed into duty leading our platoon.

I must say I mastered the "Hup haw" and "Yo left, yo left, go left right left" and all eyes were on our platoon (because of the guy from the office leading them) We were sharp! Then I went back upstairs to finish the morning report. 'One of my fondest memories as a weekend warrior.

One time, I was typing the morning report and the Mess Sergeant called me down to KP, so I went. When my First Sergeant got wind of it, he charged down to the mess tent, said to me, "You, upstairs!", and said to the Mess Sergeant, "Don't you ever put my Company Clerk on KP again!" Ah, the benefit of being Radar O'Reilly. Another of my favorite moments. 'Never had KP back at the home unit.

I joined the Guards after I graduated college, which was a year before Viet Nam was a household word. I just wanted to start a job in my field and chose the option of weekend drills once a month and 2-week summer camps for the balance of the 5 1/2 years after active duty.

During the Watts riots in California, Newark (NJ) had its own. Our unit was very close to being activated, to be carrying M-1 rifles with no access to ammunition, but it didn't materialize. I never understood the "military mentality" of having us carry us rifles with no ammunition. It seems to me that if you are not going to issue ammunition, you don't have us carry rifles. To do otherwise is asking for trouble. Besides, I much preferred the M-14's we had in Basic. I was a champ at breaking it down all the way and putting it back together quickly.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Interesting note from Zach Lowe in his most recent column:

8. Dragan Bender, dipping his toe into doing things
Smart feet and good feel are nice, but to be a productive NBA player, you actually have to, like, do stuff. Bender has spent too much of his brief NBA career not doing stuff. In early March, he became the first player since 2012 to log 36 minutes in a game and attempt one or zero shots and zero free throws.

Bender is 20. He missed almost half his rookie season. Perhaps any expectations are unfair. But at some point, the No. 4 pick in the draft -- even a 20-year-old -- has to try things. Good news: Bender is flashing a friskier handoff game -- complete with delightful play-action-fake keepers:

Marc Gasol/Nikola Jokic/Boris Diaw move. Since early February, Bender has set almost 26 ball screens per 100 possessions, up from 18 before then, per Second Spectrum tracking data. That is partly the result of Tyson Chandler's disappearance (has anyone seen Tyson Chandler; is he in a hair salon?) but it is a legitimate version of the "player development" teams trumpet when they mothball veterans and try to lose.

The Phoenix Suns still need to decide what position Bender plays, and what sort of frontcourt partner he requires (the Bender-Marquese Chriss tandem has been a disaster) but these flashes are encouraging.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...hings-like-including-celtics-kyrie-irving-nba

 

[Finito]

It's a tie they both suck

 

[SirStefan32]

Interesting note from Zach Lowe in his most recent column:

8. Dragan Bender, dipping his toe into doing things
Smart feet and good feel are nice, but to be a productive NBA player, you actually have to, like, do stuff. Bender has spent too much of his brief NBA career not doing stuff. In early March, he became the first player since 2012 to log 36 minutes in a game and attempt one or zero shots and zero free throws.

Bender is 20. He missed almost half his rookie season. Perhaps any expectations are unfair. But at some point, the No. 4 pick in the draft -- even a 20-year-old -- has to try things. Good news: Bender is flashing a friskier handoff game -- complete with delightful play-action-fake keepers:

Marc Gasol/Nikola Jokic/Boris Diaw move. Since early February, Bender has set almost 26 ball screens per 100 possessions, up from 18 before then, per Second Spectrum tracking data. That is partly the result of Tyson Chandler's disappearance (has anyone seen Tyson Chandler; is he in a hair salon?) but it is a legitimate version of the "player development" teams trumpet when they mothball veterans and try to lose.

The Phoenix Suns still need to decide what position Bender plays, and what sort of frontcourt partner he requires (the Bender-Marquese Chriss tandem has been a disaster) but these flashes are encouraging.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...hings-like-including-celtics-kyrie-irving-nba

He needs to stop dipping his toe into doing things, and just dive right in.

 

[elindholm]

Maybe things have changed recently -- I stopped watching the games -- but nearly all of Bender's screens back when I was watching were way out top, so they weren't much use. He's too slow in getting into his shooting motion to be a pick-and-pop threat; he's not aggressive enough, nor an adequately skilled ball handler, to be a pick-and-roll threat; and the PGs he's been setting screens for by and large aren't effective at dribble penetration (except for Payton on a good day), so there's no advantage there either. It's an offensive "move" that presents no challenges for the defense and is therefore a waste of time. I recognize it well, because back when I played in pickup games and was zero offensive threat, I tended to set a lot of screens up top myself. The defense quickly learned to ignore them.

 

[Mainstreet]

My patience has worn thin with Bender because of his lack of aggressiveness. I'm not high on his ability to operate inside although he does try to play defense and rebound.

I've come to the conclusion Bender should play center if he has any chance of making it in the NBA. He seems more comfortable playing at the high post and he might be able to become a stretch 5 where he draws the opposing center away from the basket. Perhaps he can put his passing skills to better use out front.

Another thing, Bender is less likely to get double teamed out there so he would have more room to operate. Bender is simply lost when he tries to operate down low.

So I think the Suns should commit to Bender being a backup center next season and hope for the best. I like the improvement I have seen from Chriss at PF. If the Suns were able to trade for a player like Aaron Gordon, Gordon and Chriss would be a nice combination at this position.

 

[SirStefan32]

My patience has worn thin with Bender because of his lack of aggressiveness. I'm not high on his ability to operate inside although he does try to play defense and rebound.

I've come to the conclusion Bender should play center if he has any chance of making it in the NBA. He seems more comfortable playing at the high post and he might be able to become a stretch 5 where he draws the opposing center away from the basket. Perhaps he can put his passing skills to better use out front.

Another thing, Bender is less likely to get double teamed out there so he would have more room to operate. Bender is simply lost when he tries to operate down low.

So I think the Suns should commit to Bender being a backup center next season and hope for the best. I like the improvement I have seen from Chriss at PF. If the Suns were able to trade for a player like Aaron Gordon, Gordon and Chriss would be a nice combination at this position.

He has nothing if his shot is not falling. I've seen him try to post up, and he simply doesn't know what he is doing. He tries to get his shot off as quickly as possible, as if though a smaller defender is going to block him. Dude is 7'1, and when he ends up with a guard switching on him... his shot is NOT going to get blocked. He does the same thing with drives once in a while too. He will drive past the defender, have him on his hip, so there is zero chance of his shot getting blocked, but he passes or just flings it towards the basket. I don't understand why he does this. He is 7'1, with decent length. Not many people are going to block his shots.

Another thing is that while he has improved his defensive rebounding, he does not even try on offense. Shot goes up, he starts running back. You are over seven feet tall, you can get a running start, you are bound to end up with 2-3 rebounds that lead to put-backs, layups, dunks. That will give you some confidence when your outside shot is not falling. Hell, even when it is falling.

Also, he really needs to stop passing the ball when he is wide open, especially in the paint. I swear that he would be an all star if he had Jackson's aggressiveness. The biggest question about Bender is whether or not that passiveness is something that will pass (no pun intended) or if it's just something that's ingrained in him, and there is no fixing it.
He can play- he already does a couple of things well, he is improving in some other areas, but he is just so passive. I honestly don't know how you teach someone to not be passive on the basketball court.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He has nothing if his shot is not falling. I've seen him try to post up, and he simply doesn't know what he is doing. He tries to get his shot off as quickly as possible, as if though a smaller defender is going to block him. Dude is 7'1, and when he ends up with a guard switching on him... his shot is NOT going to get blocked. He does the same thing with drives once in a while too. He will drive past the defender, have him on his hip, so there is zero chance of his shot getting blocked, but he passes or just flings it towards the basket. I don't understand why he does this. He is 7'1, with decent length. Not many people are going to block his shots.

Another thing is that while he has improved his defensive rebounding, he does not even try on offense. Shot goes up, he starts running back. You are over seven feet tall, you can get a running start, you are bound to end up with 2-3 rebounds that lead to put-backs, layups, dunks. That will give you some confidence when your outside shot is not falling. Hell, even when it is falling.

Also, he really needs to stop passing the ball when he is wide open, especially in the paint. I swear that he would be an all star if he had Jackson's aggressiveness. The biggest question about Bender is whether or not that passiveness is something that will pass (no pun intended) or if it's just something that's ingrained in him, and there is no fixing it.
He can play- he already does a couple of things well, he is improving in some other areas, but he is just so passive. I honestly don't know how you teach someone to not be passive on the basketball court.

Best way is to limit his minutes and give him more burn when he makes aggressive plays and right back to limiting them when he is passive.

I honestly don’t get it. He had a 5 game stretch last month where it looked like the light turned on. He was putting up 15/6/3 on 10 shot attempts and half were two point attempts. Then right after that he went back to being as passive as ever.

I would hope the Suns try and talk him into going to SL one more year because that is an opportunity for him to be showcased more. They could also consider giving him some GLeague stints next season as that would be yet another chance to showcase him.

 

[SirStefan32]

Maybe things have changed recently -- I stopped watching the games -- but nearly all of Bender's screens back when I was watching were way out top, so they weren't much use. He's too slow in getting into his shooting motion to be a pick-and-pop threat; he's not aggressive enough, nor an adequately skilled ball handler, to be a pick-and-roll threat; and the PGs he's been setting screens for by and large aren't effective at dribble penetration (except for Payton on a good day), so there's no advantage there either. It's an offensive "move" that presents no challenges for the defense and is therefore a waste of time. I recognize it well, because back when I played in pickup games and was zero offensive threat, I tended to set a lot of screens up top myself. The defense quickly learned to ignore them.

I am sure I am going to screw up the terminology here, but I think the writer is referring to off the ball screens. So, Payton has the ball, Booker gets a screen from Bender, he gets the ball, and he scores. I want to say this is called a "screen assist". Somewhere out there is a site that has these "hustle stats". I could have sworn it was ESPN, but I can't find it now. Somebody posted a link here a while back, and I remember Bender contesting the most shots, which aligned with my "eye test", but I don't remember what his screen assists looked like. He does a reasonably good job and he doesn't foul/ move like Chriss, Len, and even Chandler. He just isn't quite wide or strong enough for the defenders to not be able to fight through the screen on semi-regular basis.

 

[Mainstreet]

He has nothing if his shot is not falling. I've seen him try to post up, and he simply doesn't know what he is doing. He tries to get his shot off as quickly as possible, as if though a smaller defender is going to block him. Dude is 7'1, and when he ends up with a guard switching on him... his shot is NOT going to get blocked. He does the same thing with drives once in a while too. He will drive past the defender, have him on his hip, so there is zero chance of his shot getting blocked, but he passes or just flings it towards the basket. I don't understand why he does this. He is 7'1, with decent length. Not many people are going to block his shots.

Another thing is that while he has improved his defensive rebounding, he does not even try on offense. Shot goes up, he starts running back. You are over seven feet tall, you can get a running start, you are bound to end up with 2-3 rebounds that lead to put-backs, layups, dunks. That will give you some confidence when your outside shot is not falling. Hell, even when it is falling.

Also, he really needs to stop passing the ball when he is wide open, especially in the paint. I swear that he would be an all star if he had Jackson's aggressiveness. The biggest question about Bender is whether or not that passiveness is something that will pass (no pun intended) or if it's just something that's ingrained in him, and there is no fixing it.
He can play- he already does a couple of things well, he is improving in some other areas, but he is just so passive. I honestly don't know how you teach someone to not be passive on the basketball court.

This is why I think Bender's best chance to stick in the NBA is playing as a stretch 5. One can only hope that someday he will get the confidence to expand the rest of his game.

 

[SirStefan32]

Best way is to limit his minutes and give him more burn when he makes aggressive plays and right back to limiting them when he is passive.

I honestly don’t get it. He had a 5 game stretch last month where it looked like the light turned on. He was putting up 15/6/3 on 10 shot attempts and half were two point attempts. Then right after that he went back to being as passive as ever.

I would hope the Suns try and talk him into going to SL one more year because that is an opportunity for him to be showcased more. They could also consider giving him some GLeague stints next season as that would be yet another chance to showcase him.

See, that gives me a little bit of hope. It's not just a random game here and there. He had a solid block of games. On the other hand, Chriss had solid months last year, and he regressed, so who knows.

As for Bender, If he is not aggressive, he should sit on the bench. When he is aggressive, he should be told he'll be in the game until he asks for a break. I do agree he should go to Summer League.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

See, that gives me a little bit of hope. It's not just a random game here and there. He had a solid block of games. On the other hand, Chriss had solid months last year, and he regressed, so who knows.

As for Bender, If he is not aggressive, he should sit on the bench. When he is aggressive, he should be told he'll be in the game until he asks for a break. I do agree he should go to Summer League.

Chriss’s Regression started in the off season when he pretty much just let himself go. He put on too much weight too quickly and it effected his movement on the court. Which in turn had a negative effect on his attitude and the spiral started.

I think he is feeling much more comfortable now and is once again taking advantage of his time on court. Now hopefully he learned his lesson and does a better job of taking care of his body and working on his skills this off season.

 

[SirStefan32]

Found the advanced stats. Before the All Star Break, he had 1.5 Screen Assist, post ASB he has 2.4.
He also leads the team in contested shots with 13, followed by TJ Warren at 8.4 post all-star break. Before the break, he was leading the team with 9.8, followed by 9.6 by Len.

https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Found the advanced stats. Before the All Star Break, he had 1.5 Screen Assist, post ASB he has 2.4.
He also leads the team in contested shots with 13, followed by TJ Warren at 8.4 post all-star break. Before the break, he was leading the team with 9.8, followed by 9.6 by Len.

https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/

TBF he does have one issue that leads to the high contested shots number. When he gets switched onto a smaller player he tends to sag off a little too much and the smaller player will pull up just out of his reach. I remember a game earlier this year against the Rockets and CP3 did it to him 3 possessions in a row.

 

[Cheesebeef]

See, that gives me a little bit of hope. It's not just a random game here and there. He had a solid block of games. On the other hand, Chriss had solid months last year, and he regressed, so who knows.

As for Bender, If he is not aggressive, he should sit on the bench. When he is aggressive, he should be told he'll be in the game until he asks for a break. I do agree he should go to Summer League.

Len also flashed a similar set of the games his second, third and even this year. Bender's got to show MUCH more next season for me to even start considering him part of the future.

 

[SirStefan32]

Len also flashed a similar set of the games his second, third and even this year. Bender's got to show MUCH more next season for me to even start considering him part of the future.

No disagreement here,

 

[SirStefan32]

TBF he does have one issue that leads to the high contested shots number. When he gets switched onto a smaller player he tends to sag off a little too much and the smaller player will pull up just out of his reach. I remember a game earlier this year against the Rockets and CP3 did it to him 3 possessions in a row.

Well sure, but that's what happens when you switch. You either back off and let them shoot, put pressure on them and they drive to the hoop, or you back off and then contest the shot. Another factor is that he does rotate on defense. He is passive on offense, but he gives it all he's got on defense. He has a lot to learn- start rotating a little sooner, back off on switches a little less, etc, but he has the defensive principles down.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Bender and Chriss do at least have some things going for them that Len never had and that is that their skill sets are better for today's game. Len has more of a traditional center's game, but without a post game. Both Bender and Chriss can stretch the floor to the 3 point line and have shown the capability to put the ball on the floor from the perimeter and get all the way to the basket. Granted neither has shown real consistency in those thing, but at least the skill set is there.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well sure, but that's what happens when you switch. You either back off and let them shoot, put pressure on them and they drive to the hoop, or you back off and then contest the shot. Another factor is that he does rotate on defense. He is passive on offense, but he gives it all he's got on defense. He has a lot to learn- start rotating a little sooner, back off on switches a little less, etc, but he has the defensive principles down.

Oh for sure. I'm not knocking his defense as much as I was simply pointing to one of the things that helps drive that number up. He still probably is getting 8-10 contests per game without including the ones that he is just sagging off too far.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh for sure. I'm not knocking his defense as much as I was simply pointing to one of the things that helps drive that number up. He still probably is getting 8-10 contests per game without including the ones that he is just sagging off too far.

Right, but I would argue I'd rather he sags off too far and make folks make contested three-pointers than let them drive in for layups. He also rarely fouls jump shooters, so there is that too. I imagine fine-tuning that aspect (how far to sag off) is something that comes with experience and a lot of trial and error.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Right, but I would argue I'd rather he sags off too far and make folks make contested three-pointers than let them drive in for layups. He also rarely fouls jump shooters, so there is that too. I imagine fine-tuning that aspect (how far to sag off) is something that comes with experience and a lot of trial and error.

What even constitutes a contest? Just curious because if a player comfortably gets his shot off knowing that you have sagged off too far does it even matter it it is considered a contest or not? He seems to have a hell of a lot of threes made in his face every game, but that could be because he is simply out there contesting more than anyone else.

 

[SirStefan32]

What even constitutes a contest? Just curious because if a player comfortably gets his shot off knowing that you have sagged off too far does it even matter it it is considered a contest or not? He seems to have a hell of a lot of threes made in his face every game, but that could be because he is simply out there contesting more than anyone else.

I am not sure exactly what constitutes as a "contested shot." I am guessing it's probably something along the lines of "Is the defender within a certain distance" or "Is the hand up".

He does get a lot of threes made in his face, but he contests more of them than anyone else, so naturally he will get scored on more.

 

[elindholm]

Here we are, about six months before the day of reckoning, and it looks like "They'll both suck" is the winner.

Has any team ever had two top-ten picks from the same draft that both failed to make it to their fourth year?

I think it's clear that the Suns gave up on both players too soon. We can agree that neither had accomplished much of anything yet. Chriss was traded, depending on who you ask, either (a) to get rid of Knight, (b) to acquire Anderson, (c) to acquire Melton, or (d) to rid the Suns of Chriss's bad attitude. Of those possibilities, only the last one still has any chance of justifying the trade.

As for Bender, the only reason to decline his option was to have more cap room next summer, which we know that the Suns are not going to make good use of. The situation has gotten so desperate that even the biggest Bender detractors on this board are asking for him to get a shot; yet it makes no sense to try to develop him when we know his career with the Suns is over.

Of this front office's many egregious blunders, the handling of the 2016 draft has to be near the top of the list.

 

[1Sun]

Here we are, about six months before the day of reckoning, and it looks like "They'll both suck" is the winner.

Has any team ever had two top-ten picks from the same draft that both failed to make it to their fourth year?

I think it's clear that the Suns gave up on both players too soon. We can agree that neither had accomplished much of anything yet. Chriss was traded, depending on who you ask, either (a) to get rid of Knight, (b) to acquire Anderson, (c) to acquire Melton, or (d) to rid the Suns of Chriss's bad attitude. Of those possibilities, only the last one still has any chance of justifying the trade.

As for Bender, the only reason to decline his option was to have more cap room next summer, which we know that the Suns are not going to make good use of. The situation has gotten so desperate that even the biggest Bender detractors on this board are asking for him to get a shot; yet it makes no sense to try to develop him when we know his career with the Suns is over.

Of this front office's many egregious blunders, the handling of the 2016 draft has to be near the top of the list.

Topped only by giving Earl Watson the permanent head coaching position without even interviewing any other candidates.

 

[elindholm]

Hmm, maybe I should have put the day of reckoning one year farther into the future?