Bender vs. Chriss

[Chaplin]

I think Winston Churchill said it best when commenting on Bender:

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Bender. He is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is a coach who doesn't suck."

I don't think this board really gets just how big of a problem the coaching thing is when it comes to both those guys. Their only professional coaches have been Earl Watson and Jay Triano. Watson was terrible--they were happy off the court but didn't develop at all. Triano, while having some strengths in-game, is AWFUL outside of games. His practices are a joke and he doesn't seem to have any great relationships with any of the players.

My biggest worry with BOTH those players is that if we cut either of them loose, they will thrive in their next location simply because they have a coach that actually knows how to coach them. It's the big conundrum: Do we hope for a good coach this summer and see how that affects them both, or do we cut bait and see what we can get? It's a Catch-22 because neither of them are worth all that much--so what we get in return might not be any better than the chance they get better if we keep them.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Could you expand on that bolded part? Are you saying he plays more on instinct than actual knowledge/understanding of the game, or am I misunderstanding you?

Sure. There are some players on the court that are just intense, competitive. Kobe, MJ. They were like that. Devin and JJ are like that. There are also players that just seem to be more intuitive than competitive. They just get on the court and move. The ball finds them and then finds the hoop. Sometimes its very quietly. Sometimes there is a level of flamboyance and showmanship. TJ is like that. Dr. J was like that, so was Clyde Drexler. Its not a bad thing. Its just a matter of style. The intuitive players might be just as competitive inside, it just doesn't show in their game in the same way. Just my take.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't think this board really gets just how big of a problem the coaching thing is when it comes to both those guys. Their only professional coaches have been Earl Watson and Jay Triano. Watson was terrible--they were happy off the court but didn't develop at all. Triano, while having some strengths in-game, is AWFUL outside of games. His practices are a joke and he doesn't seem to have any great relationships with any of the players.

My biggest worry with BOTH those players is that if we cut either of them loose, they will thrive in their next location simply because they have a coach that actually knows how to coach them. It's the big conundrum: Do we hope for a good coach this summer and see how that affects them both, or do we cut bait and see what we can get? It's a Catch-22 because neither of them are worth all that much--so what we get in return might not be any better than the chance they get better if we keep them.

Chap. Where did you get the info about his practices off the court? It seems to me Triano does pretty well in his relationship with players. They seem to like him, and JJ responded to him.

I am not necessarily rooting for him to be the head coach. I think assistant coach is probably his best level. Its just that your post is the first I have heard or seen these critiques of him.

 

[sunsfan88]

Chap. Where did you get the info about his practices off the court? It seems to me Triano does pretty well in his relationship with players. They seem to like him, and JJ responded to him.

I am not necessarily rooting for him to be the head coach. I think assistant coach is probably his best level. Its just that your post is the first I have heard or seen these critiques of him.

Type “Jay Triano, Raptors forum” on google and it should take you to a variety of opinions of Triano from his last coaching gig.

Most Toronto fans blame Triano for Bosh being misused and wasted during his tenure with the Raptors.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Type “Jay Triano, Raptors forum” on google and it should take you to a variety of opinions of Triano from his last coaching gig.

Most Toronto fans blame Triano for Bosh being misused and wasted during his tenure with the Raptors.

I wouldn't put much stock in something like this, fans are all over the board on pretty much any topic.

I don't want Triano but I have no idea if he runs a good practice or if he's simply a game manager. I don't want him because he has doubts about himself as a Head Coach. He's changed his mind and says he wants the job now but let's face it, despite the losses he's in a fairly stress-free position right now. That will change quickly if he gets the job and if he didn't like dealing with all the other issues his last time around he's not likely to adjust to them this time either.

 

[Chaplin]

Jared Dudley confirmed a few weeks ago that practices have no organization and they don't have any kind of refereeing during scrimmages-so the guys basically foul all the time without learning how to play WITHOUT fouling.

This has been confirmed on this board in other threads.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Jared Dudley confirmed a few weeks ago that practices have no organization and they don't have any kind of refereeing during scrimmages-so the guys basically foul all the time without learning how to play WITHOUT fouling.

This has been confirmed on this board in other threads.

That blows my mind.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jared Dudley confirmed a few weeks ago that practices have no organization and they don't have any kind of refereeing during scrimmages-so the guys basically foul all the time without learning how to play WITHOUT fouling.

This has been confirmed on this board in other threads.

jesus.

 

[Cheesebeef]

that's an organizational failure, not just a coaching one, IMO. Either McD has no idea how practices are run... or doesn't care.

either way, I'm still mystified that the majority of y'all want him making the most important decisions in the draft/coaching hire that will determine the next decade or at least half decade.

 

[SirStefan32]

What's weird to me is how we have a consensus on one player but not on the other.

We're all (more or less) in agreement on Chriss. Plenty of talent and athleticism, shows glimpses of brilliance, but has a serious problem with attitude, discipline, focus, you name it. The question with him is whether he can get his mind to support his physical gifts. We have differing degrees of optimism, but we all agree on what the question is, and we agree that we don't know the answer.

It's the complete opposite with Bender. Some people see brilliance waiting to assert itself, and others see cluelessness. We agree that he has a minimal offensive game beyond erratic three-point shooting, but past that, there's no consensus at all. Some see a versatile defender with good instincts; others see a disoriented beanpole with the game whizzing by him. Some see an impressive awareness of picks, spacing, and team ball movement; others see someone who knows he can't make plays and is trying to minimize the negative impact of his limitations. Some see tantalizing development for a player so young; others see a fundamental passiveness that won't be outgrown.

It isn't just that we disagree on the players, but that we disagree on what we can even agree on.

First off, that's a very good post and a great discussion topic.

For me, I am not quite ready to call either one a bust, but there are some things that separate the two.

Chriss' issues, in my opinion are more fundamental. He looks disinterested out there. He doesn't close out on shooters. He'll contest shots in the lane, but if a three point shooter is open, he will not close out. His attitude is embarrassing.

Bender plays hard, contests shots, closes out on three-point shooters, and generally has a good attitude. He just has no confidence.

In my mind, Bender's issues are the issues that may get fixed, while Chriss' issues are much more difficult to fix. That doesn't mean that Bender will fix his issues. It's quite possible that he is just not a confident person, and he will always be passive. I do think, however, that those issues are more likely to be fixed.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Jared Dudley confirmed a few weeks ago that practices have no organization and they don't have any kind of refereeing during scrimmages-so the guys basically foul all the time without learning how to play WITHOUT fouling.

This has been confirmed on this board in other threads.

What the eff? Even high school and college teams are more organized than that. That's embarrassing...holy jesus...

 

[BC867]

My biggest worry with BOTH those players is that if we cut either of them loose, they will thrive in their next location simply because they have a coach that actually knows how to coach them.

It's the big conundrum: Do we hope for a good coach this summer and see how that affects them both, or do we cut bait and see what we can get? It's a Catch-22 because neither of them are worth all that much--so what we get in return might not be any better than the chance they get better if we keep them.

If that happens -- both players perform better elsewhere under stable coaching situations -- so be it.

That will not affect what the Suns need to do. Replace them with players (correction -- with a player -- they both play the same position) who is neither a flake emotionally nor a passive personality on the court. Time has shown that is what we are dealing with.

This is not about adjusting players' forms on the court. It is about the empty hope of replacing 20+ years of personality traits, whether developed by heredity or environment. The Suns can try to save face for their latest gimmick and stay mired in mediocrity. Or they can cut bait and move on. This latest gimmick? Playing with the minds of two young players by having them compete for the same position year after year.

It is another example of the Suns' lazy management. Hoping that young players will make their decision for them.

Make a decision, damnit, and, yes, hire a coaching staff that knows how to develop their players. Not just set them against each other and sit back and watch. There is no logic in rolling the problem at Power Forward into another season. It is a management problem (General Manager and Head Coach) and it needs to be addressed. And, if not, continued mediocrity.

I promised Stef I wouldn't continuously point out the shortcomings of management, and it has been awhile. But how long can we look the other way and hope that the status quo will somehow change?

 

[Chaplin]

If that happens -- both players perform better elsewhere under stable coaching situations -- so be it.

That will not affect what the Suns need to do. Replace them with players (correction -- with a player -- they both play the same position) who is neither a flake emotionally nor a passive personality on the court. Time has shown that is what we are dealing with.

This is not about adjusting players' forms on the court. It is about the empty hope of replacing 20+ years of personality traits, whether developed by heredity or environment. The Suns can try to save face for their latest gimmick and stay mired in mediocrity. Or they can cut bait and move on. This latest gimmick? Playing with the minds of two young players by having them compete for the same position year after year.

It is another example of the Suns' lazy management. Hoping that young players will make their decision for them.

Make a decision, damnit, and, yes, hire a coaching staff that knows how to develop their players. Not just set them against each other and sit back and watch. There is no logic in rolling the problem at Power Forward into another season. It is a management problem (General Manager and Head Coach) and it needs to be addressed. And, if not, continued mediocrity.

I promised Stef I wouldn't continuously point out the shortcomings of management, and it has been awhile. But how long can we look the other way and hope that the status quo will somehow change?

Easier said than done. There is no guarantee we could get back anything in replacement for either of them. Nice to think we could get a semi-star for the dregs of our team, but reality doesn't work like that.

 

[BC867]

Easier said than done. There is no guarantee we could get back anything in replacement for either of them. Nice to think we could get a semi-star for the dregs of our team, but reality doesn't work like that.

Which is which why I said "cut bait". The Suns have made many mistakes. The longer we condone them, the longer it will take to correct them. It has to start somewhere.

Especially now that our "veteran presence" Dudley has made public that Triano's practices are worthless. Easier said than done? Of course. But isn't it time to stop saying and start doing?

The old saying "lies beget more lies", in the case of the Suns, has been "blunders beget more blunders".

 

[Cheesebeef]

Which is which why I said "cut bait". The Suns have made many mistakes. The longer we condone them, the longer it will take to correct them. It has to start somewhere.

Especially now that our "veteran presence" Dudley has made public that Triano's practices are worthless. Easier said than done? Of course. But isn't it time to stop saying and start doing?

The old saying "lies beget more lies", in the case of the Suns, has been "blunders beget more blunders".

What’s gained by cutting bait right now? Neither of them on the roster will keep us from drafting a JJJ, Bagley or Ayton up top in the lotto.

 

[BC867]

What’s gained by cutting bait right now? Neither of them on the roster will keep us from drafting a JJJ, Bagley or Ayton up top in the lotto.

Cheese, no one said "right now". We're talking about changing the mindset before next season's training camp. The big picture!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese, no one said "right now". We're talking about changing the mindset before next season's training camp. The big picture!

I meant what’s the upshot to cutting bait in the summer?

If we get a good enough coach, they’ll either sink or swim and their attitudes won’t bribg the team down sitting at the end of the bench if they sink. And if they do, cut bait then. But this offseason? Seems pointless to me.

 

[BC867]

I meant what’s the upshot to cutting bait in the summer?

If we get a good enough coach, they’ll either sink or swim. And if they sink, cut bait then. But this offseason? Seems pointless to me.

I see your point, but find it so frustrating to look forward to same old-same old for another season.

My point is about the folly of having two players whose problems seem to include those of personal traits compete with each other year after year for the Power Forward position, when neither has offered a glimmer of hope.

Is the one who proves to be the lesser-worse really going to help the team? We need to systematically set our sights higher than what either of them has produced.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I see your point, but find it so frustrating to look forward to same old-same old for another season.

My point is about the folly of having two players whose problems seem to include those of personal traits compete with each other year after year for the Power Forward position, when neither has offered a glimmer of hope.

Is the one who proves to be the lesser-worse really going to help the team? We need to systematically set our sights higher than what either of them has produced.

Both were expected to have a lot of development to do when drafted and thus it should be a surprise to no one that they haven't made major strides yet. Especially when you consider the roster and coaching that they have had around them. This has been a terrible situation for raw players to develop and hopefully next year it will be a better environment. After next season they will both have team options for the 4th year of their contracts and unless you can get something of value in return for them now it just makes more sense to keep them around for at least one more year to see if either makes some big strides in their development.

 

[BC867]

Jared Dudley confirmed a few weeks ago that practices have no organization and they don't have any kind of refereeing during scrimmages-so the guys basically foul all the time without learning how to play WITHOUT fouling.

This has been confirmed on this board in other threads.

Duds was brought back to mentor the young players. 'Looks like he's mentoring the ownership and management as well by going public with this.

I won't use the word mutiny, but it is sure not a vote of confidence for management. What a mess!

 

[AzStevenCal]

Jared Dudley confirmed a few weeks ago that practices have no organization and they don't have any kind of refereeing during scrimmages-so the guys basically foul all the time without learning how to play WITHOUT fouling.

This has been confirmed on this board in other threads.

Maybe I'm thinking of a different interview but I thought his point had less to do with a lack of coaching structure (currently) and more to do with the state of the young players. There is very little time during the season to run scrimmages, with or without referees. And because of an absence of coaching in the past, Triano was forced to work on things that should have been resolved in high school.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I see your point, but find it so frustrating to look forward to same old-same old for another season.

My point is about the folly of having two players whose problems seem to include those of personal traits compete with each other year after year for the Power Forward position, when neither has offered a glimmer of hope.

Is the one who proves to be the lesser-worse really going to help the team? We need to systematically set our sights higher than what either of them has produced.

as a role player? Absolutely.

Again, one of those guys isn't going to keep the team from upgrading at PF either in the draft or FA if they can... and if the team does view their potential as reasons not to, well, we're just screwed anyway.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Jared Dudley confirmed a few weeks ago that practices have no organization and they don't have any kind of refereeing during scrimmages-so the guys basically foul all the time without learning how to play WITHOUT fouling.

This has been confirmed on this board in other threads.

Wow. I thought I read everything. How did I miss that?

 

[JCSunsfan]

that's an organizational failure, not just a coaching one, IMO. Either McD has no idea how practices are run... or doesn't care.

either way, I'm still mystified that the majority of y'all want him making the most important decisions in the draft/coaching hire that will determine the next decade or at least half decade.

You can't fire an interim coach until you have figured out who your real head coach is going to be. I guess he could call Triano in and tell him to run better practices but thats about it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I meant what’s the upshot to cutting bait in the summer?

If we get a good enough coach, they’ll either sink or swim and their attitudes won’t bribg the team down sitting at the end of the bench if they sink. And if they do, cut bait then. But this offseason? Seems pointless to me.

OK. I think one of the two has to go. But I am OK with getting the new coach in place first and then re-evaluating.

Man. Sarver. Throw the bank at Jay Wright.