Bigger gap, Fisher---Levi/Potter or Warmack---Colledge/Snyder?

[MadCardDisease]

I'm not sold on Potter/Massie and I believe Fisher would be an upgrade over those two immediately.

Sure I like Warmack better than Snyder at RG. However you could also land Larry Warford with our second round pick who I also believe would be an upgrade over Snyder.

Which position is harder to fill? LT or RG? That is the real question.

I just have a hard time taking an interior O-Lineman that early in the draft. I subscribe to the theory that when you have that high of a draft pick you take the BPA at following key positions: QB, OT, Pass Rusher DE/OLB, CB. If you take an OG that early you are passing up on taking a player from one of those positions that are so hard to fill outside of the 1st round.

In this draft, if the Cardinals stay at #7 overall I think the need to go with the best OT or Pass Rusher or even CB that is there for them at #7 overall. I'm not sure there is a QB worthy of that early of a pick otherwise they would also be on that list.

Right now if I'm the Cardinals and I stay at #7 overall, I'm targeting:

Luke Joeckel OT
Jarvis Jones OLB
Dee Milliner CB
Eric Fisher OT
Dion Jordan OLB
QB? if one jumps out on tape and grades high...

 

[GuernseyCard]

I'm not sold on Potter/Massie and I believe Fisher would be an upgrade over those two immediately.

Sure I like Warmack better than Snyder at RG. However you could also land Larry Warford with our second round pick who I also believe would be an upgrade over Snyder.

Which position is harder to fill? LT or RG? That is the real question.

I just have a hard time taking an interior O-Lineman that early in the draft. I subscribe to the theory that when you have that high of a draft pick you take the BPA at following key positions: QB, OT, Pass Rusher DE/OLB, CB. If you take an OG that early you are passing up on taking a player from one of those positions that are so hard to fill outside of the 1st round.

In this draft, if the Cardinals stay at #7 overall I think the need to go with the best OT or Pass Rusher or even CB that is there for them at #7 overall. I'm not sure there is a QB worthy of that early of a pick otherwise they would also be on that list.

Right now if I'm the Cardinals and I stay at #7 overall, I'm targeting:

Luke Joeckel OT
Jarvis Jones OLB
Dee Milliner CB
Eric Fisher OT
Dion Jordan OLB
QB? if one jumps out on tape and grades high...

Theories aside, they meet the BPA requirement by selecting the best guard over the second best tackle. And, you may be not be sold on Potter / Massie, but, it's more likely to be Levi / Massie. Levi gave up next to no sacks in the last 8 games of 2011, and Massie gave up none in the last eight of 2012.

Warmack next to Levi gives us a dynamic running combo on the left side, and Colledge can move over to RG. Potter backs up at the tackles; Snyder covers all of the interior positions, and you add Kelemente.

LEVI - WARMACK - SENDLEIN - COLLEDGE - MASSIE

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm not sold on Potter/Massie and I believe Fisher would be an upgrade over those two immediately.

Sure I like Warmack better than Snyder at RG. However you could also land Larry Warford with our second round pick who I also believe would be an upgrade over Snyder.

Which position is harder to fill? LT or RG? That is the real question.

I just have a hard time taking an interior O-Lineman that early in the draft. I subscribe to the theory that when you have that high of a draft pick you take the BPA at following key positions: QB, OT, Pass Rusher DE/OLB, CB. If you take an OG that early you are passing up on taking a player from one of those positions that are so hard to fill outside of the 1st round.

In this draft, if the Cardinals stay at #7 overall I think the need to go with the best OT or Pass Rusher or even CB that is there for them at #7 overall. I'm not sure there is a QB worthy of that early of a pick otherwise they would also be on that list.

Right now if I'm the Cardinals and I stay at #7 overall, I'm targeting:

Luke Joeckel OT
Jarvis Jones OLB
Dee Milliner CB
Eric Fisher OT
Dion Jordan OLB
QB? if one jumps out on tape and grades high...

Yeah, I disagree. First, Fisher has the same issues that Potter had which is strength. Great feet or not, Justin Smith will dump Fisher on his butt and so will Chris Long. Fisher is a very good athlete who dominated against very average competition. He has never had to block the speed+power monsters that are in the NFL. Second, you are mistaken if you think that Warmack and Warford are anywhere close to the same league even though they are seperated by one round in your opinion. Warmack is such a huge upgrade because he is a top 10 TALENT who plays OG. He is a top talent who has played against top college competition. I get you put a preference on LTs over OGs and I would understand your arguement if it was for Joeckel over Warmack, but taking a lesser talent because plays LT is foolish IMO.

 

[Chopper0080]

Theories aside, they meet the BPA requirement by selecting the best guard over the second best tackle. And, you may be not be sold on Potter / Massie, but, it's more likely to be Levi / Massie. Levi gave up next to no sacks in the last 8 games of 2011, and Massie gave up none in the last eight of 2012.

Warmack next to Levi gives us a dynamic running combo on the left side, and Colledge can move over to RG. Potter backs up at the tackles; Snyder covers all of the interior positions, and you add Kelemente.

LEVI - WARMACK - SENDLEIN - COLLEDGE - MASSIE

and that I believe is a workable offensive line. I would still like to upgrade at C, RG, LT in the near future, but this line could work in 2013. Maybe we would add another linemen in the middle rounds, maybe a OT if the coaches want larger OTs than Potter (Maybe Menelick Watson, Jordan Mills, Kyle Long, Terron Armstead) or a C if the Cardinals want more from their pivot man.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

.

LEVI - WARMACK - SENDLEIN - COLLEDGE - MASSIE

I like it, but would prefer:
Levi, Warmack, Schwenke, Colledge, Massie.

Actually I hope that Kelemete would beat out Colledge but we're stuck with him this year.

 

[Chopper0080]

I like it, but would prefer:
Levi, Warmack, Schwenke, Colledge, Massie.

Actually I hope that Kelemete would beat out Colledge but we're stuck with him this year.

for CBUS:

Dion Jordan or Chance Warmack at #7?

 

[GuernseyCard]

I like it, but would prefer:
Levi, Warmack, Schwenke, Colledge, Massie.

Actually I hope that Kelemete would beat out Colledge but we're stuck with him this year.

I'd like to see them move Kelemente into the mix at centre. Our new coaches have stressed versatility. When it's CAP feasible, he could become the super sub for the interior line.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah, I disagree. First, Fisher has the same issues that Potter had which is strength. Great feet or not, Justin Smith will dump Fisher on his butt and so will Chris Long. Fisher is a very good athlete who dominated against very average competition. He has never had to block the speed+power monsters that are in the NFL. Second, you are mistaken if you think that Warmack and Warford are anywhere close to the same league even though they are seperated by one round in your opinion. Warmack is such a huge upgrade because he is a top 10 TALENT who plays OG. He is a top talent who has played against top college competition. I get you put a preference on LTs over OGs and I would understand your arguement if it was for Joeckel over Warmack, but taking a lesser talent because plays LT is foolish IMO.

I'm a fan of Warmack, but this IS a little short-sighted. Fisher might be overpowered by the top DEs in the game (and Chris Long IIRC usually plays across from the right tackle) as a rookie, but he might not have to play as a rookie because we have Levi and Massie under contract. We could put Fisher in at guard the way the Ravens started Jonathan Ogden in that position until he's ready to move outside.

I think that the ceiling for Warmack is far higher than it is for Fisher, but let's not pretend that Fisher would be a mid-2nd round prospect or something.

There's an argument to be made that you shouldn't take a guard (or inside linebacker or safety) in the Top 10, but there's also an argument to be made that you make an exception for generational talents like Leonard Davis and (maybe) Chance Warmack.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I'm a fan of Warmack, but this IS a little short-sighted. Fisher might be overpowered by the top DEs in the game (and Chris Long IIRC usually plays across from the right tackle) as a rookie, but he might not have to play as a rookie because we have Levi and Massie under contract. We could put Fisher in at guard the way the Ravens started Jonathan Ogden in that position until he's ready to move outside.

I think that the ceiling for Warmack is far higher than it is for Fisher, but let's not pretend that Fisher would be a mid-2nd round prospect or something.

There's an argument to be made that you shouldn't take a guard (or inside linebacker or safety) in the Top 10, but there's also an argument to be made that you make an exception for generational talents like Leonard Davis and (maybe) Chance Warmack.

Leonard Davis was not drafted to play guard.

 

[kerouac9]

Leonard Davis was not drafted to play guard.

He was playing guard his rookie year, and was on the NFL All-rookie team at that position, and I think second-team All-NFL at right guard that year. He returned to RG in 2003: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviLe21.htm

Leonard Davis played guard exceptionally well, and played tackle very well.

That 2001 draft was such an interesting class.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm a fan of Warmack, but this IS a little short-sighted. Fisher might be overpowered by the top DEs in the game (and Chris Long IIRC usually plays across from the right tackle) as a rookie, but he might not have to play as a rookie because we have Levi and Massie under contract. We could put Fisher in at guard the way the Ravens started Jonathan Ogden in that position until he's ready to move outside.

I think that the ceiling for Warmack is far higher than it is for Fisher, but let's not pretend that Fisher would be a mid-2nd round prospect or something.

There's an argument to be made that you shouldn't take a guard (or inside linebacker or safety) in the Top 10, but there's also an argument to be made that you make an exception for generational talents like Leonard Davis and (maybe) Chance Warmack.

The point that I am trying to make is you have two top 20 talents, one of which is considerd a top 10 talent. Fisher, while being a top 20 talent, has several concerns in regards to his ability to handle the physical aspect of the game and the competition he faced at Central Michigan. Warmack, on the other hand, has issues with lookng like he has a soft middle and nothing else. Why would you pass on the more talented player with less question marks if your goal is to improve the offensive line?

The arguement is always that you can get OGs later in the draft but I would challenge many that more mid round OGs fail than 1st round OGs. Because of this, and with the need that we have to improve the offensive line quickly, I think it would be smarter to take the more talented and higher ranked player despiet him playing on the interior offensive line.

 

[GuernseyCard]

He was playing guard his rookie year, and was on the NFL All-rookie team at that position, and I think second-team All-NFL at right guard that year. He returned to RG in 2003: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviLe21.htm

Leonard Davis played guard exceptionally well, and played tackle very well.

That 2001 draft was such an interesting class.

I know where he played.

Simply saying, that he was not projected to be a guard for the Cards on draft day. And in line with this initial thinking, Coach Green moved him to LT.

 

[kerouac9]

The point that I am trying to make is you have two top 20 talents, one of which is considerd a top 10 talent. Fisher, while being a top 20 talent, has several concerns in regards to his ability to handle the physical aspect of the game and the competition he faced at Central Michigan. Warmack, on the other hand, has issues with lookng like he has a soft middle and nothing else. Why would you pass on the more talented player with less question marks if your goal is to improve the offensive line?

The arguement is always that you can get OGs later in the draft but I would challenge many that more mid round OGs fail than 1st round OGs. Because of this, and with the need that we have to improve the offensive line quickly, I think it would be smarter to take the more talented and higher ranked player despiet him playing on the interior offensive line.

This is a dumb argument because more OGs are taken in the later rounds, and very few guards are taken in the first round. Of course when you vastly increase the sample size, there are going to be more misses. Same with quarterbacks drafted after the first round, running backs taken after the first round, etc., etc.

I know where he played.

Simply saying, that he was not projected to be a guard for the Cards on draft day. And in line with this initial thinking, Coach Green moved him to LT.

The Cards had a 1st round LT in L.J. Shelton and a 2nd round RT in Anthony Clement. Where do you think the Cards were planning on playing the 2nd pick in the NFL draft? The argument was that the Cards were going to become a running team, and invested a ton of draft picks and free agency money in the "Big Red Line" to support the previous year's top pick, Thomas Jones.

Davis was only permanently moved to tackle once Dennis Green came on board, looked at Davis's salary schedule, and decided that keeping him at guard was unacceptable.

 

[john h]

We used to go there quite often, they had the better exchange, E Club, movie theater...you name it. Spoiled Air Force guys.

You guys talk about better exchanges, clubs, etc. At Dong Ha on the DMZ we talked about our perimeter and better holes to hide in that was near enough to the aircraft to get off the ground fast.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

for CBUS:

Dion Jordan or Chance Warmack at #7?

That's a tough one. As much as I like Warmack, I probably have to go with Jordan. My reasoning is, they are both positions of need but Jordan plays a more impactful position. On the other hand, I think there is a greater chance of Jordan flaming out than Warmack. I think Warmack is about the surest pick in the draft in that you know what you're getting.

Gosh, you know what, it's a coin toss. I couldn't pick today with any certainty. If you held a gun to my head, I'd probably go with Jordan just because it's harder to find guys with his skill set and he can be a bigger difference maker if he pans out.

If they both would reach their potential, it would be like either taking Larry Allen or a 12+ sack guy that can also cover. With the way the Cards are right now, it's easy to argue that taking the Larry Allen-type player is the way to go.

 

[MadCardDisease]

The arguement is always that you can get OGs later in the draft but I would challenge many that more mid round OGs fail than 1st round OGs. Because of this, and with the need that we have to improve the offensive line quickly, I think it would be smarter to take the more talented and higher ranked player despiet him playing on the interior offensive line.

How may 1st round guards have gone in the top 15 overall over the last 10 years?

 

[Chopper0080]

This is a dumb argument because more OGs are taken in the later rounds, and very few guards are taken in the first round. Of course when you vastly increase the sample size, there are going to be more misses. Same with quarterbacks drafted after the first round, running backs taken after the first round, etc., etc.

The Cards had a 1st round LT in L.J. Shelton and a 2nd round RT in Anthony Clement. Where do you think the Cards were planning on playing the 2nd pick in the NFL draft? The argument was that the Cards were going to become a running team, and invested a ton of draft picks and free agency money in the "Big Red Line" to support the previous year's top pick, Thomas Jones.

Davis was only permanently moved to tackle once Dennis Green came on board, looked at Davis's salary schedule, and decided that keeping him at guard was unacceptable.

But it isn't dumb because it speaks to the quality of the OG to even be considered a first round talent. OGs are rarely graded as first round talents much less top 15 talents. So it speaks to how good the OG must be to warrant such a grade. Because of this, you assume LESS RISK when you draft an OG who is graded as a first round talent because it is rare.

 

[MadCardDisease]

OGs are rarely graded as first round talents much less top 15 talents.

Graded by who? The Fans? Mel Kiper?

Last year everyone had DeCastro "graded" high and most mocks had him in the 11-15 range. He ended up sliding all the way back to 24.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Another thing in Warmack's favor is that he's only 21 years old. Wait until he's about 25 and has been in a NFL training regimen for 4-5 years and he gets more functional strength. The guy will be a monster. You're looking at a kid who can start from day 1 and be there for 12 years, or so, at a very high level.

I know this is arguing against Jordan but you can't go wrong with Warmack either.

 

[Chopper0080]

How may 1st round guards have gone in the top 15 overall over the last 10 years?

Here are the first round OGs taken since 2001

David DeCastro - 24
*Rookie season in the NFL. Started final 3 games after major injury.

Kevin Zeitler - 27
*Rookie season in the NFL. Started all 16 games for Cincy.

Danny Watkins - 23
*2 seasons in the NFL, has started 18 of 23 games. Inconsistent.

Mike Iupati - 17
*3 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Ben Grubbs - 29
*6 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Davin Joseph - 23
*7 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Logan Mankins - 32
*8 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Kendall Simmons - 30
*8 seasons in the NFL, started 4 of them.

Leonard Davis - 2
*12 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Steve Hutchinson - 17
*12 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

A pretty good track record IMO for first round OGs.

 

[Totally_Red]

Either Warmack or Fisher would be a significant upgrade to the Cardinals' offensive line and are probably both day one starters IMO. Fisher just happens to be a blue-chip prospect at a premium position. He dominated the competition he played against. It's not his fault the big conferences overlooked him coming out of high school.

The Cardinals face a win-win situation at #7 overall if both Chance Warmack and Eric Fisher are available IMO.

http://www.mlive.com/chippewas/index.ssf/2013/02/central_michigans_eric_fisher_3.html

His official analysis on NFL.com says, “Fisher opened scouts’ eyes with his pro-caliber frame and eye-popping agility in the open field, which he should be able to maintain while working in an NFL strength program.”

The Chippewas standout was compared to the last Central Michigan first-round draft pick, Joe Staley, who earned his second Pro Bowl nomination while helping lead the San Francisco 49ers to Super Bowl XLVII.

Fisher was given a first-round draft grade of 91.3, which projects him as, “An impact player with the ability/intangibles to become a Pro Bowl player. Expect to start immediately except in a unique situation.”


That’s the sixth highest grade among all prospects invited to the combine, and third among offensive linemen behind Alabama guard Chance Warmack and Texas A&M tackle Luke Joeckel.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/eric-fisher?id=2539213

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/chance-warmack?id=2539194

 

[Chopper0080]

Graded by who? The Fans? Mel Kiper?

Last year everyone had DeCastro "graded" high and most mocks had him in the 11-15 range. He ended up sliding all the way back to 24.

Scouts?

My draft information does not start with Mel Kiper and end with the Bleacher Report staff. When you start looking at rankings posted by individuals who have either worked in the NFL front offices or have a scouting background and they all consistently rank a player in the top 15 of players in the draft, then he is a top 15 talent.

 

[Chopper0080]

That's a tough one. As much as I like Warmack, I probably have to go with Jordan. My reasoning is, they are both positions of need but Jordan plays a more impactful position. On the other hand, I think there is a greater chance of Jordan flaming out than Warmack. I think Warmack is about the surest pick in the draft in that you know what you're getting.

Gosh, you know what, it's a coin toss. I couldn't pick today with any certainty. If you held a gun to my head, I'd probably go with Jordan just because it's harder to find guys with his skill set and he can be a bigger difference maker if he pans out.

If they both would reach their potential, it would be like either taking Larry Allen or a 12+ sack guy that can also cover. With the way the Cards are right now, it's easy to argue that taking the Larry Allen-type player is the way to go.

Which is where I am at. I would rather hit the double than swing for the home run at this point which is sad.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Here are the first round OGs taken since 2001

David DeCastro - 24
*Rookie season in the NFL. Started final 3 games after major injury.

Kevin Zeitler - 27
*Rookie season in the NFL. Started all 16 games for Cincy.

Danny Watkins - 23
*2 seasons in the NFL, has started 18 of 23 games. Inconsistent.

Mike Iupati - 17
*3 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Ben Grubbs - 29
*6 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Davin Joseph - 23
*7 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Logan Mankins - 32
*8 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Kendall Simmons - 30
*8 seasons in the NFL, started 4 of them.

Leonard Davis - 2
*12 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

Steve Hutchinson - 17
*12 seasons in the NFL, has been a Pro Bowler

A pretty good track record IMO for first round OGs.

And not a single one was drafted in the top 15 overall. I love Warmack but don't like using the #7 overall pick on him. Wouldn't mind moving back a few spots picking up a extra pick and selecting him if he is still there.

 

[CardsFan88]

I'm not sold on our tackles. While they were better than what we had and did so as rookies, they did get beat by speed rushers and we're in a division with some of the most freakish speed rushers in the NFL. I think we need to get better there. But I can understand if we want to see what we have there for another season plus we get Levi back. So we do have sort of a logjam of question marks at the tackle positions. Three guys we could start and drafting another guy when our interior is so poor and a guy like Warmack might be available to us might be the wrong way to go.

Warmack is already a beast. As said earlier in the thread in a few years he is going to be a monster with a few more years of body maturing and lifting. It'll be interesting to see how much he lifts at the combine. As much as I want a tackle, Warmack is imo the type of guy you can't pass up if he's there and they want to address the line.

No way should Warmack if we draft him be moved to another position.

DeCastro was worth a higher pick, but Warmack is better than DeCastro. I'm not sure he slid because he was a guard, sometimes people just slide. Sometimes a number position doesn't go along with what those teams need or think they need most. That said he got injured so we didn't see how good he potentially was. If he hadn't gotten injured and played well, Warmack being better would caused more people to salivate. It might help us (draft him) that Decastro slid and got injured as he didn't showcase what a top guard talent can do.

Thus I think Warmack is the biggest gap and while I agree it might be good to trade down, unless you know for sure what the teams after are going to take, we don't want another give up suggs for bryant johnson and calvin pace situation.