Bigger gap, Fisher---Levi/Potter or Warmack---Colledge/Snyder?

[Chopper0080]

Hell since 2001 our first round picks have been...

Michael Floyd
Patrick Peterson
Dan Williams
Chris Wells
DRC
Levi Brown
Matt Leinart
Antrell Rolle
Larry Fitzgerald
Bryant Johnson
Calvin Pace
Wendall Bryant
Leonard Davis

Personally, I would trade any of these guys except for Peterson & Fitzgerald for Hutchinson, Davis (obviously), Mankins, Grubbs, Iupati, & Joseph. Hell it's early but I could argue for David DeCastro and Kevin Zeitler over at least 6 players who we have drafted in the first round.

 

[Chopper0080]

And not a single one was drafted in the top 15 overall. I love Warmack but don't like using the #7 overall pick on him. Wouldn't mind moving back a few spots picking up a extra pick and selecting him if he is still there.

Do you think any of those teams who passed on those PRO BOWL OGs and drafted some burnout cares where they would have taken them? No. You are getting caught up in the position (which happens to be a position of need) the player plays and letting it determine their value more than their actual level of play. The only position that works for is QB IMO.

Warmack projects to play every offensive snap.
Warmack will affect (check me K9) both the passing game and the running game.
Warmack will fill our 2nd biggest need on the team (OL).
Warmack projects improve the play of our QB.
Warmack played his college ball in the top college conference (SEC).
Warmack has no reported character issues.
Warmack is considered a top 15 prospect.

What more do you want out of your top prospect?

 

[JeffGollin]

The Emperor Has No Clothes....

Just a difference of opinion, but:

I don't recall Leonard Davis being all that consistently good when he was with us. (Lots of raw athletic ability, but blew more than his fair share of assignments and averaged at least a couple of false start or holding penalties per game).

And I'm not sold on Levi being that much better than Eric Fisher when each was drafted. (Maybe Levi was rated higher in some circles, but who's to say those ratings were accurate)? He may have played OG early in his career, but he was drafted with the expectation that "he'd be our starting LT for the next 10 years." (How'd that work out)?

Plus - the 2 may differ in one important area - Levi was a safer pick (he might best be described of having a high floor and low ceiling). Due to his small-college background, Eric might be considered more risky (i.e. lower floor), but I submit that he has a higher ceiling than Levi.

As for Warmack, I agree with the analysis that - if you draft the right dude at OG, you can wind up with an All Pro.

Warmack or Fisher? Tough decision. I'd be happy with either - leave it up to Steve, BA, Moore and Goodwin to exercise good judgment.

 

[Totally_Red]

So basically which rookie would be the largest upgrade at their position vs our current players at OT and OG.

Eric Fisher replacing Potter or Levi at LT or Warmack replacing Colledge at LG?

Hopefully Kelemente wins one of those guard spots in training camp. He's one of the guys who should benefit from the new emphasis on 'coaching players up.'

 

[THESMEL]

I think we can have some pretty good flexibility with our 3 rookie lineman from last year getting quality playing time.whether starting or in rotation as determined by this offseason. Potter or Massie in at guard competeing for RT -with Levi at LT.

Goodwin liked what he seen, and complemented Levi - like a little encouragement may go a long way - compared to mouthfuls of boiling crap- When the East coast bias has to defend our players from Our teams coaches and fans- Something ran amuck in Cardinal Land.

I'm starting to buy what Arians is selling- my only concern is passing too much- but Goodwin and Stump Mitchell calmed my fears on that some- I like me some Stump Mitchell - full circle baby- He's going goose ole Jack up the Bean Stock.

 

[Chopper0080]

If the Cardinals took Eric Fisher over Chance Warmack it would be the NFL draft equivalent of Peter Griffin taking the mystery box over the boat, and hoping he gets a boat.

 

[THESMEL]

dude

Levi's defended like 3500 passes in 6 years( 4 more under contract) - most of them telegraphed as passes - to our first SB and a 4 and 6 playoff record. You watch what this guy does on a even playing field with other tackles in the NFL- in a more balanced offense- without pass rushers with their ears pinned back from the opening 3 and out drive- to desperation drives at the end of most games.

Just a difference of opinion, but:

I don't recall Leonard Davis being all that consistently good when he was with us. (Lots of raw athletic ability, but blew more than his fair share of assignments and averaged at least a couple of false start or holding penalties per game).

And I'm not sold on Levi being that much better than Eric Fisher when each was drafted. (Maybe Levi was rated higher in some circles, but who's to say those ratings were accurate)? He may have played OG early in his career, but he was drafted with the expectation that "he'd be our starting LT for the next 10 years." (How'd that work out)?

Plus - the 2 may differ in one important area - Levi was a safer pick (he might best be described of having a high floor and low ceiling). Due to his small-college background, Eric might be considered more risky (i.e. lower floor), but I submit that he has a higher ceiling than Levi.

As for Warmack, I agree with the analysis that - if you draft the right dude at OG, you can wind up with an All Pro.

Warmack or Fisher? Tough decision. I'd be happy with either - leave it up to Steve, BA, Moore and Goodwin to exercise good judgment.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

I would take Warmack. Id hate to see Potter go to the bench and possibly waste a talent:

LT - Potter
LG - Warmack
C - Snyder
RG - Levi
RT - Massie

That is a strong line, Cards would magically have a run game.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

If the Cardinals took Eric Fisher over Chance Warmack it would be the NFL draft equivalent of Peter Griffin taking the mystery box over the boat, and hoping he gets a boat.

Haha this^

 

[MadCardDisease]

Do you think any of those teams who passed on those PRO BOWL OGs

Not a single Pro-Bowl guard was drafted higher than #16 overall in the last 10 years.

Now look at the pro-bowlers at the OT position in the past three years that were 1st rounders:

Jake Long #1st overall
Joe Thomas #3rd overall
D'Brickashaw Ferguson #4th overall
Trent Williams #4th overall
Russell Okung #6th overall
Jordan Gross #8th overall
Ryan Clady #12th overall
Duane Brown #26th overall
Joe Staley #28th overall

I go for OT any day of the week over an OG! Sure there are going to be busts. However the odds of finding a Pro-Bowl OT outside of the 1st round compared to a Pro-Bowl guard are laughable.

Here are the 1st round guards that were in the Pro-Bowl during that same 3 year period:

Mike Iupati #17 overall
Davin Joseph #23 overall
Ben Grubbs #29 overall
Logan Mankins #32 overall

However you could have had the following Guards who were also in the Pro-Bowl during that period:

Chris Snee - 2nd round
Marshall Yanda - 3rd round
Wade Smith - 3rd round
Jahri Evans - 4th round
Carl Nicks - 5th round
Brandon Moore - Undrafted RFA
Brian Waters - Undrafted RFA
Kris Dielman - Undrafted RFA

 

[john h]

So basically which rookie would be the largest upgrade at their position vs our current players at OT and OG.

Eric Fisher replacing Potter or Levi at LT or Warmack replacing Colledge at LG?

There are a lot of high profile linemen this year. We could certainly use one or more. I am of the opinion you can find some good ones in round 2 or 3 as only a few generally get the high praise. Of course a QB is by far our greatest need and to take one would be a larger risk than taking a Warmack or Fisher. A QB can be an instant game changer. No lineman alive can be that so is the risk of taking a QB worth the outcome? That is the question our staff will have to ask themselves. If they think all of these QBs are not going to be a future starter then they will not likely take one with our first pick. If they like one can be our future starter we sure want know until draft day. They will keep that information in a big safe. I think in nearly all cases your chances of finding a good OT in rounds 2-3-4 are not that bad but finding a QB in those rounds are not very good. Lots to think about here. Watching the draft this year will be a lot of fun. If as Mitch indicates we let go of Kolb you can count on us taking a QB. Of course MB said he is not giving up on Kolb and the owner normally trumps everyone else. That does not mean Kolb will be the starter but is a good indicator we will keep Kolb. I wonder if MB is the one who insisted on taking Kolb to start with and is not ready to admit he made a big mistake?

 

[Zeno]

Its a simple matter of OG being a bigger position of need for this team than OT and Warmack being a better player at his position from a better conference than Fisher.

I could care less about the history of OGs and where they were drafted, he makes the most sense to this football team as it is built today. IMO Fisher taken anywhere in the top 15 is a reach.

 

[Reddog]

Yeah, cutting Colledge would just be creating room for 2014 as it would be a wash for 2013.

So do you keep Brown at LT, Warmack LG and move Snyder to C with College at RG, Massie at RT?

 

[Chopper0080]

Not a single Pro-Bowl guard was drafted higher than #16 overall in the last 10 years.

Now look at the pro-bowlers at the OT position in the past three years that were 1st rounders:

Jake Long #1st overall
Joe Thomas #3rd overall
D'Brickashaw Ferguson #4th overall
Trent Williams #4th overall
Russell Okung #6th overall
Jordan Gross #8th overall
Ryan Clady #12th overall
Duane Brown #26th overall
Joe Staley #28th overall

I go for OT any day of the week over an OG! Sure there are going to be busts. However the odds of finding a Pro-Bowl OT outside of the 1st round compared to a Pro-Bowl guard are laughable.

Here are the 1st round guards that were in the Pro-Bowl during that same 3 year period:

Mike Iupati #17 overall
Davin Joseph #23 overall
Ben Grubbs #29 overall
Logan Mankins #32 overall

However you could have had the following Guards who were also in the Pro-Bowl during that period:

Chris Snee - 2nd round
Marshall Yanda - 3rd round
Wade Smith - 3rd round
Jahri Evans - 4th round
Carl Nicks - 5th round
Brandon Moore - Undrafted RFA
Brian Waters - Undrafted RFA
Kris Dielman - Undrafted RFA

and, as I have stated before, your point is valid for Luke Joeckel, but not for Eric Fisher. In Joeckel over Warmack, you are taking a dominant OT over drafting a dominant OG. In taking Fisher over Warmack, you are hoping to draft a dominant OT over drafting a dominant OG.

Having a left side of Levi Brown and Chance Warmack is better than, best case scenario, a left side of Eric Fisher and Daryn Colledge. And before you argue about drafting a LG in the 2nd or 3rd round and starting over Colledge, it won't happen. Colledge is almost uncuttable, and he is still better than most mid round rookies coming out of college.

Chance Warmack = plug-and-play

Eric Fisher = hope-and-pray

 

[Chopper0080]

So do you keep Brown at LT, Warmack LG and move Snyder to C with College at RG, Massie at RT?

I think you have Levi Brown at LT, Chance Warmack at LG, Bobby Massie at RT and let Nate Potter, Senio Kelemete, Adam Snyder, Daryn Colledge and Lyle Sendlein figure out the other two spots. Competition is not a bad thing.

 

[jf-08]

I agree with all of your points, Chopper.

Warmack is a beast and will be a wrecking ball in the interior line.

When was the last time we EVER had a guard get to the second line of defense in run blocking?

When have we EVER had a pulling guard who could actually engage a defender?

When have we EVER had an interior lineman quick enough to be effective in the screen game?

Warmack answers all of these questions. He is such a strong player that no one can really compare him to anyone else.

Below is a link for a discussion on Joeckel and Warmack and both are studs.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/0ap1000000137989/article/2013-nfl-draft-luke-joeckel-chance-warmack-could-top-field

 

[Mulli]

and, as I have stated before, your point is valid for Luke Joeckel, but not for Eric Fisher. In Joeckel over Warmack, you are taking a dominant OT over drafting a dominant OG. In taking Fisher over Warmack, you are hoping to draft a dominant OT over drafting a dominant OG.

Having a left side of Levi Brown and Chance Warmack is better than, best case scenario, a left side of Eric Fisher and Daryn Colledge. And before you argue about drafting a LG in the 2nd or 3rd round and starting over Colledge, it won't happen. Colledge is almost uncuttable, and he is still better than most mid round rookies coming out of college.

Chance Warmack = plug-and-play

Eric Fisher = hope-and-pray

Good job!

 

[MadCardDisease]

I agree with all of your points, Chopper.

Warmack is a beast and will be a wrecking ball in the interior line.

When was the last time we EVER had a guard get to the second line of defense in run blocking?

When have we EVER had a pulling guard who could actually engage a defender?

When have we EVER had an interior lineman quick enough to be effective in the screen game?

Warmack answers all of these questions. He is such a strong player that no one can really compare him to anyone else.

Below is a link for a discussion on Joeckel and Warmack and both are studs.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/0ap1000000137989/article/2013-nfl-draft-luke-joeckel-chance-warmack-could-top-fieldhttp://www.nfl.com/combine/story/0a...t-luke-joeckel-chance-warmack-could-top-fieldhttp://www.nfl.com/combine/story/0a...t-luke-joeckel-chance-warmack-could-top-fieldhttp://www.nfl.com/combine/story/0a...t-luke-joeckel-chance-warmack-could-top-field

That Gut on Warmack is awesome.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[JeffGollin]

So do you keep Brown at LT, Warmack LG and move Snyder to C with College at RG, Massie at RT?

As of right now (& lacking the necessary info), I'd lean to:

Potter LT
Warmack LG
Snyder C
Ohrnberger RG
Massie RT

With Levi and Kelemete pushing Warmack and Ohrnberger (and Levi becoming a Bridges-type swing backup).

 

[GatorAZ]

If you're not using positional value to determine prospect rankings Warmack would be #1 in this class. I think there's a good chance Cleveland takes him at #6 to give T-Rich a tunnel to run thru. Keim already stated our line needs to get more physical so taking the most physical lineman in the draft (Warmack) sounds plausible.

If we can't cut Colledge this year we move him to RG and Levi back at LT next to Warmack. Cut Snyder and roll with Lyle. Potter/Kelemete are solid depth guys.

 

[MadCardDisease]

You can't cut Colledge.

If the Cardinals draft Warmack my guess the line will be:

Brown, Colledge, Sendline, Warmack, Massie

 

[juza76]

As of right now (& lacking the necessary info), I'd lean to:

Potter LT
Warmack LG
Snyder C
Ohrnberger RG
Massie RT

With Levi and Kelemete pushing Warmack and Ohrnberger (and Levi becoming a Bridges-type swing backup).

Ohrnberg is journeyman..is a joke? levi becoming what bridges was??? do u know the amount of his contract??

 

[juza76]

You can't cut Colledge.

If the Cardinals draft Warmack my guess the line will be:

Brown, Colledge, Sendline, Warmack, Massie

the coach and keim said they want a very physical line..i dont see anything physical with colledge and sendlein..soft and weak

 

[MadCardDisease]

..i dont see anything physical with colledge and sendlein..soft and weak

and too expensive to cut.

 

[Duckjake]

How much of previous draft position for players was a result of cost? Left Tackles and QBs and premier pass rushers were worth the extra money.

All that has changed now with the new CBA. So how will that affect teams rating of players?

Can teams afford to draft a Guard higher than in the past because they don't have to pay him $45 million guaranteed?