Bill Davis (LBs Coach) - Can He Develop Young Talent?

[Chopper0080]

We must be off to a pretty damn good start when everyones sole focused bitching is centered around the first round pick, a position coach, and/or whether PP21 allowed one or 4 catches the past 2 games.

Good place to be. Whether or not Murray is a top 5 QB and/or "elite" will be the next stage.

 

[scandalous_b]

Great post. Thanks for the back up. And to those hating on the post, the LBs that are playing well were not developed by Davis. The point of the post was developing young LBs and he makes a great argument for a guy with a weak track record for that.

Exactly - thank you.

I don’t doubt that Bill Davis is able to coach guys like Jordan Hicks & De’Vondre Campbell. Those guys are professionals who have been around the block and proven they can hang it in the league. I’m sure he’s great with those guys.

The concern here is that Davis has no track record as a LB coach of taking top young talents and developing them to reach their potential. In fact - he has a much larger track record of doing more harm than good for those guys. It’s terrifying.

 

[slanidrac16]

Hey scandalous ( rookie)

You’re quoting yourself as saying “I’m not dissing good coaching” - and then proceed to diss good coaching lol.

It is crazy how many people whine about coaches, playcalling, scheme, etc. and then downplay the impact that coaching has on player development. It makes zero sense.

If Isaiah Simmons is a bust - it will 100% be on the organization & coaching staff (barring catastrophic injury). Dudes that are built like him with the college production to match have no reason to not succeed in the NFL.

Thanks for pointing out what I’m saying....one specific player , one specific coach and your conjecture that a Rookie player with 2 games is, might be, could be, Possibly be, be a bust and if he is will be totally because of said coach. Have fun with the rest of your thread. Peace out.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

scandalous, agents should know the difference between a dope response and a dopey response. i.e. my response could be considered a dopey response, but your response to my response has to be classified as a dope response.

What is your purpose of attacking another poster here? What are you trying to get out of it.

Discuss the topic at hand or take a break

 

[scandalous_b]

Hey scandalous ( rookie)

Thanks for pointing out what I’m saying....one specific player , one specific coach and your conjecture that a Rookie player with 2 games is, might be, could be, Possibly be, be a bust and if he is will be totally because of said coach. Have fun with the rest of your thread. Peace out.

Yep. I definitely put all the blame on one specific coach...

If Isaiah Simmons is a bust - it will 100% be on the organization & coaching staff (barring catastrophic injury).

It’s not Bill Davis’ fault that he’s the LB coach of the Cardinals. It’s the organization’s job to ensure they’re putting Simmons in a position to succeed.

So far - they’ve failed miserably. They came out and immediately overextended him, and then benched him. They’ve handled this as poorly as possible. Not sure how you could argue otherwise.

 

[BigRedRage]

man I hope simmons soon starts to break out so I can stop reading this stuff all day.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Young guys who played under Bill Davis:
2001 Atlanta Falcons: 4th round pick Matt Stewart. Serviceable player.
2002 Atlanta Falcons: 3rd round pick Will Overstreet. Played a few years but retired due to shoulder injuries.
2003 Atlanta Falcons: No young LBs drafted.
During this time period the Falcons had Keith Brooking (borderline star), Chris Draft (career years under Davis), Keith Newman (journeymen), Matt Stewart (serviceable player), Karon Riley (backup), John Holecek (good player at the end of his career), Mark Simoneau (good player for a few years, but after he left Falcons).

Not a ton of draft capital used, so it's hard to tell how good of a job he did. He moved on to the Giants after Dan Reeves staff was fired.

2004 New York Giants.
The Giants had crap at LB. This was a 6-10 team, that started 5-2 with Kurt Warner starting. Nick Greisen was the best LB on this team, so that tells you the level of talent he had to work with.

He was next hired to be Defensive Coordinator for the 49ers, a job that he was pretty terrible at under Mike Nolan.

After this, he came to Arizona to be LBs coach for 2007 and 2008
2007 Arizona Cardinals: LB Buster Davis. I wonder if Bill Davis recommended him? He did work with Dansby, Hayes, Chike Okeafor, and Calvin Pace. Hard to tell what kind of impact he had here as the trio of good LBs were already with the Cardinals for a few years before he arrived. Monte Beisel had a few moments as a back up LB
2008 Arizona Cardinals: Added Bert Berry, Travis LaBoy. Went to the Super Bowl.

Next stop after failing as a DC, was to move to the Browns.
2011 Browns: No noticeable "young" LBs to work with. Had D'Qwell Jackson who was real good LB at the time.
2012 Browns: Again, no great young LB to work with. Emmanuel Acho? Journeyman.

After failing twice as DC, he was again hired to be a DC for the Eagles. He is often picked for his Wade Philips pedigree I guess.

His next stop was LB coach for the Ohio State Buckeyes.

What did I take away looking through his record as LB coach? He's never really been entrusted with a young stud LB. And even though he has failed multiple times as a DC, teams continued to hold him in esteem even though his record as a DC was spotty at best.

 

[unseenaz]

And even though he has failed multiple times as a DC, teams continued to hold him in esteem even though his record as a DC was spotty at best.

that's the nfl for you. crazy world.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I've never been a fan of Bill Davis and I wasn't a fan of his re-hire.

 

[scandalous_b]

Young guys who played under Bill Davis:
2001 Atlanta Falcons: 4th round pick Matt Stewart. Serviceable player.
2002 Atlanta Falcons: 3rd round pick Will Overstreet. Played a few years but retired due to shoulder injuries.
2003 Atlanta Falcons: No young LBs drafted.
During this time period the Falcons had Keith Brooking (borderline star), Chris Draft (career years under Davis), Keith Newman (journeymen), Matt Stewart (serviceable player), Karon Riley (backup), John Holecek (good player at the end of his career), Mark Simoneau (good player for a few years, but after he left Falcons).

Not a ton of draft capital used, so it's hard to tell how good of a job he did. He moved on to the Giants after Dan Reeves staff was fired.

2004 New York Giants.
The Giants had crap at LB. This was a 6-10 team, that started 5-2 with Kurt Warner starting. Nick Greisen was the best LB on this team, so that tells you the level of talent he had to work with.

He was next hired to be Defensive Coordinator for the 49ers, a job that he was pretty terrible at under Mike Nolan.

After this, he came to Arizona to be LBs coach for 2007 and 2008
2007 Arizona Cardinals: LB Buster Davis. I wonder if Bill Davis recommended him? He did work with Dansby, Hayes, Chike Okeafor, and Calvin Pace. Hard to tell what kind of impact he had here as the trio of good LBs were already with the Cardinals for a few years before he arrived. Monte Beisel had a few moments as a back up LB
2008 Arizona Cardinals: Added Bert Berry, Travis LaBoy. Went to the Super Bowl.

Next stop after failing as a DC, was to move to the Browns.
2011 Browns: No noticeable "young" LBs to work with. Had D'Qwell Jackson who was real good LB at the time.
2012 Browns: Again, no great young LB to work with. Emmanuel Acho? Journeyman.

After failing twice as DC, he was again hired to be a DC for the Eagles. He is often picked for his Wade Philips pedigree I guess.

His next stop was LB coach for the Ohio State Buckeyes.

What did I take away looking through his record as LB coach? He's never really been entrusted with a young stud LB. And even though he has failed multiple times as a DC, teams continued to hold him in esteem even though his record as a DC was spotty at best.

Thanks for providing some specific examples.

Again - nobody is saying that Bill Davis absolutely cannot develop young talent at LB. However, his track record does not supply much evidence to the contrary.

His biggest opportunity to prove that he could work with & develop young inexperienced LBs was at Ohio State - and it was an absolute disaster.

Just something to think about...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Thanks for providing some specific examples.

Again - nobody is saying that Bill Davis absolutely cannot develop young talent at LB. However, his track record does not supply much evidence to the contrary.

His biggest opportunity to prove that he could work with & develop young inexperienced LBs was at Ohio State - and it was an absolute disaster.

Just something to think about...

I don't know Browning, and I don't know what the differences were from year to year.

Maybe Browning showed up on campus and just thought because he was a "5 star" that he should be handed the job and he should dominate from day one. Obviously the signs point to Browning and Davis not getting along, but maybe this is an age thing too. We don't know. Just like I've heard before, there are three sides to every story (Browning's side, Davis' side, and what really happened).

I'm not ready to panic, nor am I ready to call Simmons a bust just yet. I'll give him a bit of time, but the early returns have sucked so far.

I didn't want Simmons, I wanted Jedrick Wills or Mekhi Becton. My opinion is that I wouldn't use a top ten pick on a nonpremium position, unless that guy is Ray Lewis, or Patrick Willis, or Luke Kuechly. Simmons will have to be that good to warrant the pick.

 

[scandalous_b]

And even though he has failed multiple times as a DC, teams continued to hold him in esteem even though his record as a DC was spotty at best.

that's the nfl for you. crazy world.

While I would NEVER want Bill Davis as my team’s DC ever again, I don’t doubt the fact that he is an impressive Xs & Os guy. He obviously knows the game and earned those opportunities.

My issue is that the smartest teacher isn’t always the best teacher. All indications are that he is not great at breaking down the game & teaching the concepts to those that are not also experts.

I think it’s more than fair to question whether he is the right guy to be handling the development of such a unique asset in Simmons. So far - it hasn’t looked good.

 

[slanidrac16]

man I hope simmons soon starts to break out so I can stop reading this stuff all day.

Lol! You can stop reading this thread today... I am.

 

[Krangodnzr]

While I would NEVER want Bill Davis as my team’s DC ever again, I don’t doubt the fact that he is an impressive Xs & Os guy. He obviously knows the game and earned those opportunities.

My issue is that the smartest teacher isn’t always the best teacher. All indications are that he is not great at breaking down the game & teaching the concepts to those that are not also experts.

I think it’s more than fair to question whether he is the right guy to be handling the development of such a unique asset in Simmons. So far - it hasn’t looked good.

He's also picked so real crap jobs to be the defensive side boss. Almost none of those defenses that he took over really were that good to begin with.

From what has been said about Davis, he is supposed to be extremely knowledgeable.

 

[Cardsmasochist]

If we find a way to mangle Simmons (like we did Reddick) - then it falls solely on the coaching staff. They already asked him to do too much too soon, and put him in a position to humiliate himself against the 49ers.

Don't forget the Deone Bucannon, another hybrid first round Cardinals pick. He is now on the Falcons' practice squad.

I agree that we need to develop players better. We won't know if Simmons is a bust for some time but if he does end up being a bust, then the Cardinals should stop drafting these hybrid players that struggle at the NFL level.

 

[scandalous_b]

Maybe Browning showed up on campus and just thought because he was a "5 star" that he should be handed the job and he should dominate from day one.

I mean we’re talking about Ohio State here. Being a 5 star player isn’t exactly unique there.

For reference, here are the other 5-star players that Browning came into Ohio State with:

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• Chase Young - #2 overall pick
• Jeffrey Okudah - #3 overall pick
• Shaun Wade - projected top CB prospect & first round pick in 2021 draft
• Wyatt Davis - Consensus 1st Team All-American & projected top interior OL prospect & first round pick in 2021 draft

There’s no denying that Browning has been the outlier of that group.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I mean we’re talking about Ohio State here. Being a 5 star player isn’t exactly unique there.

For reference, here are the other 5-star players that Browning came into Ohio State with:

You must be registered for see images attach

• Chase Young - #2 overall pick
• Jeffrey Okudah - #3 overall pick
• Shaun Wade - projected top CB prospect & first round pick in 2021 draft
• Wyatt Davis - Consensus 1st Team All-American & projected top interior OL prospect & first round pick in 2021 draft

There’s no denying that Browning has been the outlier of that group.

I aware of the class he came in with, but not every position is build the same. LB is a very mentally demanding position.

Just writing off Davis because Browning struggled, is academically dishonest. There are a litany of reasons Browning struggled, to include Davis' coaching acumen, but maybe it was a preparation thing. We don't know.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The 2018 OSU, going from memory, may have been the worst, statiscal-wise, ever at OSU. If not, it was one of the worst. And it was mainly attributed the horrid LB play.
2019 was pretty stout, with main change being Bill Davis was amongst the first guys replaced by Ryan Day.

The main improvement, according to the LBs themselves, was they were allowed to go out and make plays instead of being bogged down/overloaded and having to overthink everything.

Davis had an in with Urban Myer. He was best man at his wedding or vice versa.

 

[GatorAZ]

I mean we’re talking about Ohio State here. Being a 5 star player isn’t exactly unique there.

For reference, here are the other 5-star players that Browning came into Ohio State with:

You must be registered for see images attach

• Chase Young - #2 overall pick
• Jeffrey Okudah - #3 overall pick
• Shaun Wade - projected top CB prospect & first round pick in 2021 draft
• Wyatt Davis - Consensus 1st Team All-American & projected top interior OL prospect & first round pick in 2021 draft

There’s no denying that Browning has been the outlier of that group.

Urban was handing out shoe boxes of cash my goodness.

 

[scandalous_b]

I aware of the class he came in with, but not every position is build the same. LB is a very mentally demanding position.

Just writing off Davis because Browning struggled, is academically dishonest. There are a litany of reasons Browning struggled, to include Davis' coaching acumen, but maybe it was a preparation thing. We don't know.

Maybe, but the whole position group was a disaster during that time - Browning was just the headliner. Davis had a LB room loaded with future NFL talent, and made them look pedestrian at best. The moment somebody else took over, the entire unit took a huge step forward, with Browning taking the biggest leap. That feels like a little too big of a coincidence if you ask me.

Disregard the Ohio State situation, and go watch Simmons’ reps against the 49ers again. Do you think he looked confident & well-coached?

 

[Krangodnzr]

A few quotes I'll include from a few of the included links:

"However, he also said he felt abandoned by someone at Ohio State (presumably referring to Bill Davis). Browning declined to name any individuals, and admits some complicity in the breakdown of the relationship. Regardless, the episode contributed to his diminished role. 'One person who I didn’t expect to give up on me gave up on me, and it just didn’t sit well with me,' he said. 'So then at that point, the relationship is ended. Every time you see one another, it just wasn’t what it needed to be, or the relationship it once was.'"

"The biggest influence came with the addition of linebackers coach Al Washington. A Columbus native and Buckeye legacy who most recently coached linebackers at Michigan, Washington and Browning clicked from their initial meeting. Soon, Browning became close with Washington’s family. ... Browning credits Washington with helping him step back and gain perspective on what he could do to fulfill his potential."

"Sophomore Baron Browning, a five-star recruit, has yet to find his footing and looked confused at times when he should have looked like a star. He was made a middle linebacker this season when he should be, and wants to be, on the outside."

"Last year, in Davis' first season, junior Jerome Baker wasn’t as good as he was a sophomore, and then he started in the NFL as a rookie this year."

"Look at the three losses the last two years -- Oklahoma, Iowa and Purdue -- and you’ll see linebackers out of position and chasing plays. It’s not only the linebackers. But it’s plenty of the linebackers."

"Schiano and Davis put an NFL stamp on the defense this season, and not in a good way. Players thought too much, and a slow decision is automatically a wrong decision. You may think you have a great plan that adults could execute, but if kids can’t do it, you must scrap it."

Your first quote didn't include this snippet:

He arrived at Ohio State as a key member of the nation’s No. 2 recruiting class. Two years in, he had not cracked the linebacker rotation enough to fulfill those expectations. While Browning started three games as a sophomore, he remained the clear second option to Borland.


Browning admits he struggled to find the singular focus necessary to excel in football. He did not go into specifics, but he said distractions back home and his own lack of priorities were both factors.


However, he also said he felt abandoned by someone at Ohio State. Browning declined to name any individuals, and admits some complicity in the breakdown of the relationship. Regardless, the episode contributed to his diminished role.

So he showed up and didn't pay attention to football enough and then he felt abandoned by someone, maybe Bill Davis, or maybe NOT Bill Davis.

Browning’s father and brother noticed the change. Barry used to call and check in with Baron regularly during his first two seasons at Ohio State. He offered advice and prodded Browning to follow through on his commitments, training and studies.


Those calls eventually became unnecessary.


“There were some times during the summer or during the past spring where I would call to challenge him,” Barry said of his brother. “He said he was watching film or meeting with his coach. There was nothing I could ever really pick at him about because he was on top if it from a mental sense.”

The article doesn't directly say it, but it is HEAVILY implied that Baron Browning got some freedom from his dad who made him work hard constantly and started slacking...

Browning’s feelings of isolation began to change in the offseason when, after Urban Meyer’s departure, the defensive coaching staff saw wholesale changes. Jeff Hafley and Greg Mattison came on as co-defensive coordinators and implemented a scheme which Buckeye defenders say is less complicated and allows them to play looser and swarm to the ball.

So he starts to play better under an easier system and when he actually starts to work hard again.

 

[scandalous_b]

The 2018 OSU, going from memory, may have been the worst, statiscal-wise, ever at OSU. If not, it was one of the worst. And it was mainly attributed the horrid LB play.
2019 was pretty stout, with main change being Bill Davis was amongst the first guys replaced by Ryan Day.

The main improvement, according to the LBs themselves, was they were allowed to go out and make plays instead of being bogged down/overloaded and having to overthink everything.

Davis had an in with Urban Myer. He was best man at his wedding or vice versa.

And it’s not like that defense lacked talent around the LBs...

DE Nick Bosa (before injury) (1st Rd Pick)
DE Chase Young (1st Rd Pick)
DT Dre’Mont Jones (3rd Rd Pick)
DT Davon Hamilton (3rd Rd Pick)
CB Kendall Sheffield (4th Rd Pick)
CB Jeff Okudah (1st Rd Pick)
CB Damon Arnette (1st Rd Pick)
CB Shaun Wade (projected 1st Rd Pick)
S Jordan Fuller (6th Rd Pick - starter for the Rams)

There is absolutely no excuse for the LBs to perform as poorly as they did. It’s honestly quite impressive how badly Davis coached that group lol.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Maybe, but the whole position group was a disaster during that time - Browning was just the headliner. Davis had a LB room loaded with future NFL talent, and made them look pedestrian at best. The moment somebody else took over, the entire unit took a huge step forward, with Browning taking the biggest leap. That feels like a little too big of a coincidence if you ask me.

Disregard the Ohio State situation, and go watch Simmons’ reps against the 49ers again. Do you think he looked confident & well-coached?

OR the Linebackers they had struggled to run the defense that the defensive coordinator runs.

And Browning still wasn't a starter last year.

 

[scandalous_b]

Your first quote didn't include this snippet:



So he showed up and didn't pay attention to football enough and then he felt abandoned by someone, maybe Bill Davis, or maybe NOT Bill Davis.



The article doesn't directly say it, but it is HEAVILY implied that Baron Browning got some freedom from his dad who made him work hard constantly and started slacking...



So he starts to play better under an easier system and when he actually starts to work hard again.

I mean I respect the mental gymnastics - but I can promise you that you are reaching. Good luck finding any Ohio State source to back up your logic.

Plus - it wasn’t just Baron Browning who had issues. The entire LB group struggled as a unit. Did they all just stop working hard? Isn’t that on the coach to get the most/best out of his players?

 

[scandalous_b]

OR the Linebackers they had struggled to run the defense that the defensive coordinator runs.

And Browning still wasn't a starter last year.

I mean Ohio State rotated LBs, like they do most positions, but Browning most definitely played the majority of snaps.

I would say that 11 TFL & 5 sacks in 11 games is pretty damn solid production - especially for someone who primarily lined up at MLB. It was no doubt a huge step up from his previous seasons, and he just looked like a different player. I’m not really sure what argument you are trying to make.

Ohio State went from having some of their worst defensive seasons to being historically great - despite minimal change in on-field personnel.