Bill Davis (LBs Coach) - Can He Develop Young Talent?

[scandalous_b]

I know there is an entire thread dedicated to the recent struggles of Isaiah Simmons, but I really believe this topic deserves its own thread.

I hate to be the one to say that I expected the early struggles out of Isaiah Simmons - but unfortunately I truly did. The moment he was drafted, I got that sick feeling in my stomach. And honestly, it had nothing to do with Simmons as a talent - I think he is fantastic. It had everything to do with Bill Davis as a coach.

For those of you that are unfamiliar with Bill Davis, his most recent job before joining the Cardinals was as the LBs coach at Ohio State. When I say that Bill Davis is probably the most hated coach in recent Ohio State history - I could not be more serious. He took over one of the most talented LB rooms in the entire country and completely mangled them. The moment he took over the LB room at Ohio State, their production dropped off a cliff.

One of the biggest criticisms of Davis has been his inability to develop young physical freaks at the LB position. Sound familiar? One of the players that Bill Davis inherited was 5-star LB Baron Browning. Browning was rated as the #1 OLB, and the #11 overall prospect in America in 2017 (for context - that is 4 spots behind Chase Young and 3 spots behind Jeffrey Okudah, who developed into top 3 picks in the same Ohio State defense). Over the two years that Davis coached Browning, he just looked lost. He looked like he was overthinking everything, which negated his crazy athletic ability & versatility. Sound familiar?

The moment Bill Davis left the Ohio State program, a new Baron Browning emerged. He looked like an entirely new player, making an impact in all facets of the game. His production took a significant jump, as he became a difference maker on defense. Instead of always looking lost - he played loose and looked like the athlete that everyone expected.

So why do I bring all of this up?

I cannot get the image of Baron Browning out of my head after watching what happened to Isaiah Simmons against the 49ers. Simmons went from being one of the most terrifying & versatile defenders in all of college football to looking like a deer in headlights. One of the best athletes we have ever seen in college football looked like just another guy the moment he stepped onto an NFL field. That is not normal.

I know it is early in an unusual season, but everything I have seen thus far is exactly what I feared. Bill Davis has zero track record of directly developing young talents at LB. Is this really the guy we are going to rely on to develop one of the most gifted athletes to play defense in NFL history? We CANNOT afford to blow this opportunity and ruin another major asset.

I cannot recommend it enough to read the pieces below for more context:

https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2018/...ld-you-be-critical-of-me-doug-lesmerises.html

https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2019/...oned-in-columbus-to-a-blazing-young-bull.html

https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2017/11/ohio_states_linebacker_problem.html

https://theozone.net/2018/05/baron-browning-blame-bill-davis/

 

[scandalous_b]

A few quotes I'll include from a few of the included links:

"However, he also said he felt abandoned by someone at Ohio State (presumably referring to Bill Davis). Browning declined to name any individuals, and admits some complicity in the breakdown of the relationship. Regardless, the episode contributed to his diminished role. 'One person who I didn’t expect to give up on me gave up on me, and it just didn’t sit well with me,' he said. 'So then at that point, the relationship is ended. Every time you see one another, it just wasn’t what it needed to be, or the relationship it once was.'"

"The biggest influence came with the addition of linebackers coach Al Washington. A Columbus native and Buckeye legacy who most recently coached linebackers at Michigan, Washington and Browning clicked from their initial meeting. Soon, Browning became close with Washington’s family. ... Browning credits Washington with helping him step back and gain perspective on what he could do to fulfill his potential."

"Sophomore Baron Browning, a five-star recruit, has yet to find his footing and looked confused at times when he should have looked like a star. He was made a middle linebacker this season when he should be, and wants to be, on the outside."

"Last year, in Davis' first season, junior Jerome Baker wasn’t as good as he was a sophomore, and then he started in the NFL as a rookie this year."

"Look at the three losses the last two years -- Oklahoma, Iowa and Purdue -- and you’ll see linebackers out of position and chasing plays. It’s not only the linebackers. But it’s plenty of the linebackers."

"Schiano and Davis put an NFL stamp on the defense this season, and not in a good way. Players thought too much, and a slow decision is automatically a wrong decision. You may think you have a great plan that adults could execute, but if kids can’t do it, you must scrap it."

 

[Garthshort]

Is scandalous, Browning's agent? If so, congrats, and good luck getting Browning's image out of your head. Some meds might help.

 

[scandalous_b]

Is scandalous, Browning's agent? If so, congrats, and good luck getting Browning's image out of your head. Some meds might help.

Dope response.

I provide an example of our coach’s struggle to develop talent at a previous job - and I get attacked for overhyping the referenced player.

Meanwhile - our #8 overall draft pick LB got humiliated in his first start on multiple plays, and then benched for the foreseeable future.

Sounds like a coaching masterpiece to me. Absolutely no reason to be concerned.

 

[Cardiac]

I would say that since all the other LBers on this unit seem to be playing well that Davis isn't a liability at the NFL level. Simmons can learn from his teammates as well.

 

[ReasonableMan]

I’m surprised Davis came back in a downgraded role. I forgot he was here again

 

[slanidrac16]

This is like worrying over a forest fire because there’s matches sitting on the kitchen table.

Great athletes will be great. Not dissing the importance of coaching but grading Simmons development at this point is just a bit earlier.

If Simmons busts it won’t be because of Bill Davis.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Its gonna be tough, Simmons instincts arent that of a natural linebacker

 

[TaylorSwift]

Dope response.

I provide an example of our coach’s struggle to develop talent at a previous job - and I get attacked for overhyping the referenced player.

Meanwhile - our #8 overall draft pick LB got humiliated in his first start on multiple plays, and then benched for the foreseeable future.

Sounds like a coaching masterpiece to me. Absolutely no reason to be concerned.

I wouldnt fault the coaches.

This a scouting/drafting failure.

Find a hybrid talent who has no set position yet draft him to play out of his natural position because you already have a pro bowl caliber player at that position

 

[scandalous_b]

This is like worrying over a forest fire because there’s matches sitting on the kitchen table.

Great athletes will be great. Not dissing the importance of coaching but grading Simmons development at this point is just a bit earlier.

If Simmons busts it won’t be because of Bill Davis.

I mean it’s not like that at all.

Saying “great athletes will be great” and dismissing the impact of good & bad coaching is crazy. There’s a reason the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, etc. continuously produce & develop talent year after year. There’s also a reason the Browns, Jets, Jaguars, etc. continue to mangle player development and waste top talents year after year.

You are literally watching what kind of effect good coaching can have through Kliff & Kyler.

Wild.

 

[scandalous_b]

Its gonna be tough, Simmons instincts arent that of a natural linebacker

I wouldnt fault the coaches.

This a scouting/drafting failure.

Find a hybrid talent who has no set position yet draft him to play out of his natural position because you already have a pro bowl caliber player at that position

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I don’t know what you think “natural linebacker instincts” are, but in the modern NFL, being sufficient in coverage is probably more valuable than being solid against the run. If you can’t drop into coverage - you can’t stay on the field.

Simmons showed the ability to defend the run, rush the passer & drop into coverage at a level that is extremely rare. Add on top of that that he is a freak athlete that doesn’t have any physical limitations.

If we find a way to mangle Simmons (like we did Reddick) - then it falls solely on the coaching staff. They already asked him to do too much too soon, and put him in a position to humiliate himself against the 49ers.

 

[Garthshort]

scandalous, agents should know the difference between a dope response and a dopey response. i.e. my response could be considered a dopey response, but your response to my response has to be classified as a dope response.

 

[football karma]

i think the two most mentally demanding positions on defense in the NFL are ILB and S

mistakes at those positions can turn into big plays for all to see

i just expectations for Simmons need to be tempered given lack of an offseason and normal pre season

 

[scandalous_b]

scandalous, agents should know the difference between a dope response and a dopey response. i.e. my response could be considered a dopey response, but your response to my response has to be classified as a dope response.

Nice dude.

Not only are you trying to use semantics to try to prove how smart you are - but you’ve also managed to mangle the meaning of the word “dope” in 2020.

Impressive.

 

[scandalous_b]

i think the two most mentally demanding positions on defense in the NFL are ILB and S

mistakes at those positions can turn into big plays for all to see

i just expectations for Simmons need to be tempered given lack of an offseason and normal pre season

I think you might be right - but doesn’t that make coaching that much more important given the extreme circumstances?

I’m sorry that I don’t want to leave Simmons’ development up to chance & luck. Our LB coach has little to no track record of getting the best out of top raw talents - and that makes me extremely uneasy.

 

[CardNots]

I think you might be right - but doesn’t that make coaching that much more important given the extreme circumstances?

I’m sorry that I don’t want to leave Simmons’ development up to chance & luck. Our LB coach has little to no track record of getting the best out of top raw talents - and that makes me extremely uneasy.

hmmm, is that u Mitch?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Davis is god awful as a coach.
The OSU LB crew improved immensely once he left.

That he continues to be employed, even at a tremendous downward spiral, is amazing.

 

[unseenaz]

you could be on to something, let's remember that hasson riddick changed from ILB to OLB and is suddenly having a resurgence.

idk why anyone on this board is downplaying the importance of coaching. we literally had weekly "Fire Amos Jones" posts when our STs were garbage

 

[slanidrac16]

I mean it’s not like that at all.

Saying “great athletes will be great” and dismissing the impact of good & bad coaching is crazy. There’s a reason the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, etc. continuously produce & develop talent year after year. There’s also a reason the Browns, Jets, Jaguars, etc. continue to mangle player development and waste top talents year after year.

You are literally watching what kind of effect good coaching can have through Kliff & Kyler.

Wild.

Uh... I literally said” I’m not dissing good coaching”. What I’m saying is mediocre players can be coached up to be good. Very good players can be coached up to be better. But coaching is not going to coach up a poor player to be a great player.
If Simmons is going to be a bust it is not going to be because of Bill Davis. Will he get him from average to above average or above average to great? Maybe, maybe not.

Bottom line there is only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.

 

[JosiahLee]

you could be on to something, let's remember that hasson riddick changed from ILB to OLB and is suddenly having a resurgence.

idk why anyone on this board is downplaying the importance of coaching. we literally had weekly "Fire Amos Jones" posts when our STs were garbage

And I’m convinced the overnight success of the o-line is all coach Kugs

 

[speedy]

We must be off to a pretty damn good start when everyones sole focused bitching is centered around the first round pick, a position coach, and/or whether PP21 allowed one or 4 catches the past 2 games.

 

[scandalous_b]

Uh... I literally said” I’m not dissing good coaching”. What I’m saying is mediocre players can be coached up to be good. Very good players can be coached up to be better. But coaching is not going to coach up a poor player to be a great player.
If Simmons is going to be a bust it is not going to be because of Bill Davis. Will he get him from average to above average or above average to great? Maybe, maybe not.

Bottom line there is only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.

You’re quoting yourself as saying “I’m not dissing good coaching” - and then proceed to diss good coaching lol.

It is crazy how many people whine about coaches, playcalling, scheme, etc. and then downplay the impact that coaching has on player development. It makes zero sense.

If Isaiah Simmons is a bust - it will 100% be on the organization & coaching staff (barring catastrophic injury). Dudes that are built like him with the college production to match have no reason to not succeed in the NFL.

 

[Reddog]

I know there is an entire thread dedicated to the recent struggles of Isaiah Simmons, but I really believe this topic deserves its own thread.

I hate to be the one to say that I expected the early struggles out of Isaiah Simmons - but unfortunately I truly did. The moment he was drafted, I got that sick feeling in my stomach. And honestly, it had nothing to do with Simmons as a talent - I think he is fantastic. It had everything to do with Bill Davis as a coach.

For those of you that are unfamiliar with Bill Davis, his most recent job before joining the Cardinals was as the LBs coach at Ohio State. When I say that Bill Davis is probably the most hated coach in recent Ohio State history - I could not be more serious. He took over one of the most talented LB rooms in the entire country and completely mangled them. The moment he took over the LB room at Ohio State, their production dropped off a cliff.

One of the biggest criticisms of Davis has been his inability to develop young physical freaks at the LB position. Sound familiar? One of the players that Bill Davis inherited was 5-star LB Baron Browning. Browning was rated as the #1 OLB, and the #11 overall prospect in America in 2017 (for context - that is 4 spots behind Chase Young and 3 spots behind Jeffrey Okudah, who developed into top 3 picks in the same Ohio State defense). Over the two years that Davis coached Browning, he just looked lost. He looked like he was overthinking everything, which negated his crazy athletic ability & versatility. Sound familiar?

The moment Bill Davis left the Ohio State program, a new Baron Browning emerged. He looked like an entirely new player, making an impact in all facets of the game. His production took a significant jump, as he became a difference maker on defense. Instead of always looking lost - he played loose and looked like the athlete that everyone expected.

So why do I bring all of this up?

I cannot get the image of Baron Browning out of my head after watching what happened to Isaiah Simmons against the 49ers. Simmons went from being one of the most terrifying & versatile defenders in all of college football to looking like a deer in headlights. One of the best athletes we have ever seen in college football looked like just another guy the moment he stepped onto an NFL field. That is not normal.

I know it is early in an unusual season, but everything I have seen thus far is exactly what I feared. Bill Davis has zero track record of directly developing young talents at LB. Is this really the guy we are going to rely on to develop one of the most gifted athletes to play defense in NFL history? We CANNOT afford to blow this opportunity and ruin another major asset.

I cannot recommend it enough to read the pieces below for more context:

https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2018/...ld-you-be-critical-of-me-doug-lesmerises.html

https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2019/...oned-in-columbus-to-a-blazing-young-bull.html

https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2017/11/ohio_states_linebacker_problem.html

https://theozone.net/2018/05/baron-browning-blame-bill-davis/

Great post. Thanks for the back up. And to those hating on the post, the LBs that are playing well were not developed by Davis. The point of the post was developing young LBs and he makes a great argument for a guy with a weak track record for that.

 

[scandalous_b]

Davis is god awful as a coach.
The OSU LB crew improved immensely once he left.

That he continues to be employed, even at a tremendous downward spiral, is amazing.

Yep. The dude got run out of Columbus, where he had an insane talent advantage over the competition - but I’m supposed to just sit back and allow for him to mangle the development of our #8 overall pick.

 

[Chopper0080]

Davis is god awful as a coach.
The OSU LB crew improved immensely once he left.

That he continues to be employed, even at a tremendous downward spiral, is amazing.

I have heard this as well.