Blow it up....

Cheesebeef

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Envision it's a playoff series again, with Bowen harassing Nash to madness. Would any of the trade you guys propose give the Suns a better chance at still winning that series?

People know how to deal with Nash now. They put athletic long guys like Ricky Davis, Steph Jackson, or even just Bowen, and Nash is just not creating space like he normally does. In that case, the only reliable option on offense becomes Amare! In particular, if we don't play other sets that make other players comfortable at creating scoring opportunities due to the fact that Nash dominates the ball all time and plays excessive minutes.

So, Howard maybe the only one that'd fill the bill. Deng, Wallace, or whoever you have in mind will be rendered useless in that series.

that's great and all but the Magic are NEVER gonna trade a completely healthy Howard, who's already a rebounding/defensive beast for a horrific defender/questionable knees Amare and Marion who is beginning the end of his "prime".
 

OldDirtMcGirt

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Envision it's a playoff series again, with Bowen harassing Nash to madness. Would any of the trade you guys propose give the Suns a better chance at still winning that series?

People know how to deal with Nash now. They put athletic long guys like Ricky Davis, Steph Jackson, or even just Bowen, and Nash is just not creating space like he normally does. In that case, the only reliable option on offense becomes Amare! In particular, if we don't play other sets that make other players comfortable at creating scoring opportunities due to the fact that Nash dominates the ball all time and plays excessive minutes.

So, Howard maybe the only one that'd fill the bill. Deng, Wallace, or whoever you have in mind will be rendered useless in that series.

Unfortunately, Amare doesn't have a back-to-the-basket game, so I'd have serious doubts about him as a go to scoring option in late game situations when we're playing half court sets. If we have mismatches, we could swing it to Sheed (who does have a well developed post game).

The Pistons won a championship with Billups and Sheed as their go to guys, and Sheed nailed a fifteen foot turnaround to win game two in Cleveland last year. If the D collapses on Sheed, we can dish to Artest or Bell, who are both good three point shooters, and Artest gives us that slasher that we don't really have (especially with Barbs settling for so many jumpers). He can also create his own offense unlike Shawn. I'd argue that we become more flexible offensively with those two details.

How about if you flip it around. We have to come up with key defensive stops late in the game. Are you really going to trust Amare (or even Brian Skinner) to guard Tim Duncan? I sure wouldn't. Sheed on the other hand is one of the elite post defenders in the game, and possibly the best at containing Duncan. Ron Artest is quite possibly the best defensive player in the game.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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I believe there is a big difference between premature and pre-emtive

There are fundamental flaws with this team that have yet to show they shouldnt be cause for worry.

Blow it up before it blows you up.

Untouchables: Nash, Barbosa, Hill, Skinner

Gotta Gos: Diaw, Banks, Piat, Sarver

Consider Moving: Marion, Stat, Bell, Dantoni
 

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Unfortunately, Amare doesn't have a back-to-the-basket game, so I'd have serious doubts about him as a go to scoring option in late game situations when we're playing half court sets. If we have mismatches, we could swing it to Sheed (who does have a well developed post game).

The Pistons won a championship with Billups and Sheed as their go to guys, and Sheed nailed a fifteen foot turnaround to win game two in Cleveland last year. If the D collapses on Sheed, we can dish to Artest or Bell, who are both good three point shooters, and Artest gives us that slasher that we don't really have (especially with Barbs settling for so many jumpers). He can also create his own offense unlike Shawn. I'd argue that we become more flexible offensively with those two details.

How about if you flip it around. We have to come up with key defensive stops late in the game. Are you really going to trust Amare (or even Brian Skinner) to guard Tim Duncan? I sure wouldn't. Sheed on the other hand is one of the elite post defenders in the game, and possibly the best at containing Duncan. Ron Artest is quite possibly the best defensive player in the game.

First, Amare doesn't have a back-to-basket game partially because we never practice that in real games.

2nd, even without a true b2b game, with his smooth J his face-up game is still a better weapon than Rasheed's now deteriorated lowpost one.

3rd, on that Detroit championship team they had 3 good 1-on-1 scorers in Sheed, Hamilton and Billups, plus Prince was not bad either, who are all better than all but Amare on the Suns. So, they had the "go-to" scoring load well distributed among the starters. Look at the Spurs series, tell me who on the Suns could be a consistent "go-to" scorer besides Amare.

4th, besides the downgrade as a "go-to" scorer, no big man compliments Nash as well as Amare does. Very often, Nash was showing a rather poor pass only Amare could catch in traffic with his strong hands and converts. Without Amare bailing Nash out this way, he'd have had even more turnovers in that series than he did!

I watched all recent games by the Suns and watched Amare closely. He was always positioning himself, or passing, perfectly and really contributing even without touching the ball. Our offensive draught most of the time correlates with plays without Amare somehow involved. Watch them closely, you will see what I mean.
 

PHX 32

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Wow some pretty crazy threads come out after losses. Losses happen in the NBA its not the end of the world, we need to relax and see how the team plays the upper eschelon teams (games they will get up for) hard to judge them against bad teams as they play down to the comp seems like for the last couple years. If we don't show up well and win at least half of our next four then we can start worrying a little. For now people need to relax and trading marion for anything is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen written even on a message board!

I really agree with this. Well said sir
 
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Divide Et Impera

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This is about WAY more than a knee-jerk reaction to a bad loss. I have been a Suns fan for about 16 years now and the story has never changed - this team is a doughnut. I have grown increasingly frustrated with Amare's loafing, which contradicts all his big talk about working hard and becoming the best. At some point you gotta call a spade a spade. In this case, we can logically call Amare a very good player who is sometimes offensively dominant and is generally defensively deficient.

Looking back, I would now be happier if we had drafted a 3 or a 2 when we got Amare and drafted Boozer at #22 instead of Jacobsen. At this point, I would trade Amare for Boozer. Boozer has the fire, the grit, the mean streak that this team has never had - that Amare doesn't have.

So, this isn't a "panic" thread, this is a reaction to an ongoing observation. To this point, I have NEVER advocated trading Amare, but now I am completely blown off by his loafing and am ready to part ways.

Remember when Oberto shot 11-11 from the field? That was Amare's cover. Remember when Blatche scored around 16 points in about just as many minutes? That was Amare's cover. Remember when Haslem scored 21 and grabbed 13 boards? That was Amare's cover (and Shaq).

I'm done with Amare, I'm done with Marion. The only guys on this team with heart are Nash, Barbosa, Skinner and Bell. Of that group, all but Barbosa have that fire, that will to stand up to the challenge, the true passion to be better than the guy that he's guarding.

More Amare and more MArion means nothing more than more mental masturbation....
 

nashman

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Done with Amare and Marion...what are you smoking? Seriously Amare one of the best young big men in the league and Marion who does all the things people bitch about this team not doing i.e. rebounding and playing D. Whatever you clearly have some issues with those guys and can't see through your dislike for them to see they are not the problem. One guy can't play D the whole damn team needs to tighten up on D including Amare but its not purely on him or Marion.
 
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Divide Et Impera

Divide Et Impera

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Done with Amare and Marion...what are you smoking? Seriously Amare one of the best young big men in the league and Marion who does all the things people bitch about this team not doing i.e. rebounding and playing D. Whatever you clearly have some issues with those guys and can't see through your dislike for them to see they are not the problem. One guy can't play D the whole damn team needs to tighten up on D including Amare but its not purely on him or Marion.

And I agree with you. If you want to get further into the problem, then we need to look at the coach and then the management, which I am all too eager to change as well.

I don't have a personal problem with Amare, I have just come to fully realize his limits and the fact that you cannot rely on his personality type to carry a team. Marion I do personally have a problem with. If he were making $10M a year and not bitching at every turn, I'd be cool with him, but I am outright disgusted by his martyr complex.

During this past summer, when the Suns were a hair away form acquiring Garnett for Marion, I was thrilled. By most accounts, it is MArion's fault that the deal fell through. Pairing Garnett and Amare in the frontcouret would have ended ALL woes, but Garnett is not one of the players I would want in a trade of Amare. See, neither one alone can carry a team, but togehter they would dominate.

I would rather blow it up and start with a new philosophy than to keep the same failed strategy. But, hey, if you are fine with another season of 55-60 wins and a quick second round exit, then by all means keep on keepin' on....
 

Arizona's Finest

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This is about WAY more than a knee-jerk reaction to a bad loss. I have been a Suns fan for about 16 years now and the story has never changed - this team is a doughnut. I have grown increasingly frustrated with Amare's loafing, which contradicts all his big talk about working hard and becoming the best. At some point you gotta call a spade a spade. In this case, we can logically call Amare a very good player who is sometimes offensively dominant and is generally defensively deficient.

Looking back, I would now be happier if we had drafted a 3 or a 2 when we got Amare and drafted Boozer at #22 instead of Jacobsen. At this point, I would trade Amare for Boozer. Boozer has the fire, the grit, the mean streak that this team has never had - that Amare doesn't have.

So, this isn't a "panic" thread, this is a reaction to an ongoing observation. To this point, I have NEVER advocated trading Amare, but now I am completely blown off by his loafing and am ready to part ways.

Remember when Oberto shot 11-11 from the field? That was Amare's cover. Remember when Blatche scored around 16 points in about just as many minutes? That was Amare's cover. Remember when Haslem scored 21 and grabbed 13 boards? That was Amare's cover (and Shaq).

I'm done with Amare, I'm done with Marion. The only guys on this team with heart are Nash, Barbosa, Skinner and Bell. Of that group, all but Barbosa have that fire, that will to stand up to the challenge, the true passion to be better than the guy that he's guarding.

More Amare and more MArion means nothing more than more mental masturbation....

Someone needs to put a stop to this insanity.

First of all - yes - you are all knee jerk reacting to a couple of losses. I didn't see the Minny game but i watched the entire Miami game and living here in MIA I can tell you they NEVER collectively hit shots like that. Now you can say this is because the Suns dont play much "D" and that certainly rings true. But against 95% of the teams 95% of the time teams will not be able to outshoot us. That is the model and it has worked so far.

Second - this whole trade Amare thing is patently ridiculous. Am i disappointed he has not turned into an all around force like Duncan and Garnett? Yes. Am i starting to think he is more bark than bite? Yes. Do I think his knees are VERY scary? yes. Are there ten players in the league i would trade him for? Hell No.

Everyone wants to focus on what Amare is not and are going gaga over Howard. Yes Howard is looking very good so far. Couple points: Howard is a better defender and rebounder but he is no where near the offensive force that Amare is. NO WHERE NEAR! Howard was also a #1 pick. Should we start comparing Amare to Duncan, Lebron, and Shaq too? WTF? why not be happy that we have the best offensive young big man in the game and quit trying to trade him for 50 cents on the dollar?

You know what is absolutely killer about all this? There is an article on CNNSI.com right now from Steve Aschburner or something talking about the exact same thing we bitch about every day. The KT trade. And he makes some valid points.

Yet no one even thinks to consider that an good low post big man is likely biding his time and eventually will be here in PHX. PJ Brown is the magic elixir for everybody. Should he come here then everyone will go crazy and say we are back to being title favorites. And Sarver will be a genius for getting KT for 1/8 the cost.

And Even if he doesn't you are all sounding like a bitter bunch of masochists who whine when we have things so good. Make the ridiculous trades you guys are proposing and just see how they would turn out. There is a reason all of us are the arm chair QB's and the FO is the one getting paid to make moves. Because the know what they are doing.

Meanwhile we sit here at 15 -6 acting like winning 60 game and the WCF is a birthright or something. Get a grip. We will be fine. Kerr and the boys will address our low post needs WITHOUT dismantling the team and even if not, I am fine going to war with the boys we got. You know why?

Because just like us - they are waiting for the playoffs too. And at that point I will take our top 7 over anyones.

This message is not just for the fans either. Coach D and team needs to relax too. If all this carping and whining keeps up it won't be the lack of low post defense and rebounding that will eat us up.

Its the pressure....
 
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Someone needs to put a stop to this insanity.

First of all - yes - you are all knee jerk reacting to a couple of losses. I didn't see the Minny game but i watched the entire Miami game and living here in MIA I can tell you they NEVER collectively hit shots like that. Now you can say this is because the Suns dont play much "D" and that certainly rings true. But against 95% of the teams 95% of the time teams will not be able to outshoot us. That is the model and it has worked so far.

Second - this whole trade Amare thing is patently ridiculous. Am i disappointed he has not turned into an all around force like Duncan and Garnett? Yes. Am i starting to think he is more bark than bite? Yes. Do I think his knees are VERY scary? yes. Are there ten players in the league i would trade him for? Hell No.

Everyone wants to focus on what Amare is not and are going gaga over Howard. Yes Howard is looking very good so far. Couple points: Howard is a better defender and rebounder but he is no where near the offensive force that Amare is. NO WHERE NEAR! Howard was also a #1 pick. Should we start comparing Amare to Duncan, Lebron, and Shaq too? WTF? why not be happy that we have the best offensive young big man in the game and quit trying to trade him for 50 cents on the dollar?

You know what is absolutely killer about all this? There is an article on CNNSI.com right now from Steve Aschburner or something talking about the exact same thing we bitch about every day. The KT trade. And he makes some valid points.

Yet no one even thinks to consider that an good low post big man is likely biding his time and eventually will be here in PHX. PJ Brown is the magic elixir for everybody. Should he come here then everyone will go crazy and say we are back to being title favorites. And Sarver will be a genius for getting KT for 1/8 the cost.

And Even if he doesn't you are all sounding like a bitter bunch of masochists who whine when we have things so good. Make the ridiculous trades you guys are proposing and just see how they would turn out. There is a reason all of us are the arm chair QB's and the FO is the one getting paid to make moves. Because the know what they are doing.

Meanwhile we sit here at 15 -6 acting like winning 60 game and the WCF is a birthright or something. Get a grip. We will be fine. Kerr and the boys will address our low post needs WITHOUT dismantling the team and even if not, I am fine going to war with the boys we got. You know why?

Because just like us - they are waiting for the playoffs too. And at that point I will take our top 7 over anyones.

This message is not just for the fans either. Coach D and team needs to relax too. If all this carping and whining keeps up it won't be the lack of low post defense and rebounding that will eat us up.

Its the pressure....


:thumbup:

Very well said....I agree 1000%
 

elindholm

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Everyone wants to focus on what Amare is not and are going gaga over Howard. Yes Howard is looking very good so far. Couple points: Howard is a better defender and rebounder but he is no where near the offensive force that Amare is. NO WHERE NEAR!

What do you base that on? The fact that Stoudemire has a jump shot? Howard is averaging 23.1 ppg this season (compared to 21.0 for Stoudemire) on 61% shooting (Stoudemire 59%). Sure, if you want, you can say that "all Howard does is dunk," but as Suns fans correctly pointed out when the same criticism was leveled at Stoudemire, why not dunk it every time if the defense can't stop you? Oh, and Howard is also averaging nearly 12 FTA per game, compared to not even 7 for Stoudemire. He bests Stoudemire in every category except free-throw accuracy, and even then the gap isn't enormous -- about one fewer make for every six attempts.

Howard is slightly superior to Stoudemire on offense and miles ahead of him in defense and rebounding. At this point there really is no comparison between the two players.

Howard was also a #1 pick. Should we start comparing Amare to Duncan, Lebron, and Shaq too?

Yes, this is a good point. Stoudemire has done very well for a #9 pick, and the Suns are lucky to have him. I'm in full agreement there. Howard was supposed to have fantastic potential, and he is living up to that, but that's not Stoudemire's fault.

There is a reason all of us are the arm chair QB's and the FO is the one getting paid to make moves. Because the know what they are doing.

This argument never holds water. Do you know why coaches and GMs are quickly fired? Because they make mistakes. A lot of mistakes. Sure, sometimes they are fired for other reasons, but they are often fired for incompetence. So, given that we know they make mistakes, isn't it theoretically possible for us mere fans to detect them? Why wouldn't it be? After all, we don't have any difficulty detecting officiating mistakes, but those guys are paid professionals too.

Kerr and the boys will address our low post needs WITHOUT dismantling the team and even if not, I am fine going to war with the boys we got.

Which is exactly why there won't be any changes. Sarver, Kerr and D'Antoni are saying the same thing you are: "Eh, we've got problems, but come playoff time, who knows, we might get lucky." You can't refer to "low post needs" and then simultaneously declare that there aren't any. This team has real problems, but they'd rather cross their fingers and pray than take a serious look at how those problems could be addressed.

And most of the fans are behind them, so you can't blame them. As Chris Sanders and others have eloquently pointed out, everything on this team is a success according to the goals the organization has set for itself. There is absolutely no reason to make a change, and that would be true even if they could look into the future and see a guaranteed early playoff exit.
 

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First of all - yes - you are all knee jerk reacting to a couple of losses. I didn't see the Minny game but i watched the entire Miami game and living here in MIA I can tell you they NEVER collectively hit shots like that. Now you can say this is because the Suns dont play much "D" and that certainly rings true. But against 95% of the teams 95% of the time teams will not be able to outshoot us. That is the model and it has worked so far.

I don't think anyone can call it knee-jerking anymore. People's concerns may have become a little extreme the past couple of days, but in general, people have been discussing these same concerns for weeks now. Why do you think Miami never hit shots like they did in this game? It's because their defense was horrid, their rotations were terrible, and they could not get a rebound. Are these not the concerns we have been discussing for weeks? I don't care what team you're playing, when you let them have open jump shot, after open jump shot, they're going to make them. If you give teams second chances, they're going to capitalize. It may be true that we are going to outshoot most of the teams in this league, but that philosophy has yet to work in the playoffs the last 3 years. It works great in the regular season, but every year we fall short because we have yet to address weaknesses. We are a 1 trick pony that is too heavily reliant on one way of playing the game.

Second - this whole trade Amare thing is patently ridiculous. Am i disappointed he has not turned into an all around force like Duncan and Garnett? Yes. Am i starting to think he is more bark than bite? Yes. Do I think his knees are VERY scary? yes. Are there ten players in the league i would trade him for? Hell No.

I agree with you here. It would take a lot for me to want to trade Amare anywhere. I don't think he is being used correctly though. You can tell in his voice when asked about playing these big guys that he doesn't want to do it, but if it benefits the team, then sobeit. IMO, Amare shouldn't be playing center. I've thought that for 3 years. It works out a lot for us as he creates matchup nightmares at times, but I think playing against other PF's he would be much happier, and put forth a better effort on defense. I'd probably be frustrated too if I was trying to guard players who I could do nothing with for the sake of fitting in a system. Now, I'm certainly not trying to excuse Amare. He has faults that need working on.

Yet no one even thinks to consider that an good low post big man is likely biding his time and eventually will be here in PHX. PJ Brown is the magic elixir for everybody. Should he come here then everyone will go crazy and say we are back to being title favorites. And Sarver will be a genius for getting KT for 1/8 the cost.

That's not a safe assumption to be making though. If Brown doesn't come aboard, it will essentially be too late to make additional changes through trade. Even with Brown, I'm not sure the Suns are good enough to win it all this year. There seems to be too much else going on right now.

And Even if he doesn't you are all sounding like a bitter bunch of masochists who whine when we have things so good. Make the ridiculous trades you guys are proposing and just see how they would turn out. There is a reason all of us are the arm chair QB's and the FO is the one getting paid to make moves. Because the know what they are doing.

I hate this argument. I don't think anyone here would deny that we have it good. You'd have to be a fool not to think that. Behind the negative tone of fans about this team at times, there is passion. We are living in a city that is starving for a title, and seeing as how these teams the last 3+ years have been the closest we've had in over a decade, I can see why it's frustrating to fans to see this same pattern repeat itself over and over again, without any sight of improvement. In the end, we're all still there watching, supporting, going to games, and hoping that what they have can somehow be enough.
 
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Divide Et Impera

Divide Et Impera

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Well, the purpose of this thread is to discuss a long-running frustration with a failed philosophy. That is why I say blow it up: New GM, new coach, new players, new philosophy. Scrap it all and build towards a new, championship-oriented goal....
 

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First, Amare doesn't have a back-to-basket game partially because we never practice that in real games.

2nd, even without a true b2b game, with his smooth J his face-up game is still a better weapon than Rasheed's now deteriorated lowpost one.

3rd, on that Detroit championship team they had 3 good 1-on-1 scorers in Sheed, Hamilton and Billups, plus Prince was not bad either, who are all better than all but Amare on the Suns. So, they had the "go-to" scoring load well distributed among the starters. Look at the Spurs series, tell me who on the Suns could be a consistent "go-to" scorer besides Amare.

4th, besides the downgrade as a "go-to" scorer, no big man compliments Nash as well as Amare does. Very often, Nash was showing a rather poor pass only Amare could catch in traffic with his strong hands and converts. Without Amare bailing Nash out this way, he'd have had even more turnovers in that series than he did!

I watched all recent games by the Suns and watched Amare closely. He was always positioning himself, or passing, perfectly and really contributing even without touching the ball. Our offensive draught most of the time correlates with plays without Amare somehow involved. Watch them closely, you will see what I mean.

For whatever reason that he doesn't have a b2b game, Amare isn't going to suddenly develop one overnight. Blame it on the coaching or whomever, but he still isn't an offensive closer in the half court as you make him out to be.

The J might be nice, but you don't really want to settle for jump shots when the game is on the line. The whole point of having an offensive powered big man is his ability to post up and score in the paint. I think that's one of the reasons the Dirk is so inconsistent as a go to guy, because he just doesn't have that post up, interior game. Amare can finish in the lane, but alot of that is dependent on Steve.

In the Suns roster I proposed, we'd also have 3 good one on one scorers in Artest (who's better than Hamilton), Nash, and Sheed. Plus we could always throw in Grant Hill as a guy who can create his own shot, as Sheed can actually bang against other centers unlike Amare. Bell is alot like Prince was in '04 in that he didn't do alot of creating, but he played good defense and could knock down the open three ball.

In think that 2005-2006 showed us that not having Amare won't hurt Nash. We probably wouldn't run as much, or throw all of those passes into traffic on the pick and roll, but that doesn't mean we couldn't adjust our offense. Nash is the smartest player in the NBA, and he's shown in the past that he can adapt to whatever the pace. His numbers might drop a little bit, but that's not to say his effectiveness would. In fact, I'd be much more comfortable with us running a half court offense, as we wouldn't be so prone to all of our "intensity lapses" that haunt us throughout the season.

I watch all the Suns game, and I do respect Amare's offensive game. However, our offensive droughts have much less to do with Amare than with Steve; when he's not on the floor we struggle offensively. We'd have plenty of versatility without Amare. You can spread the floor and throughout a three point shooting lineup, you can post up Sheed, or let Artest create off the dribble. We can play half court or we can run.

And once again, what are we supposed to do when we need crucial defensive stops? You're trusting Amare going up against Duncan, Boozer, Brand, etc.? That's equally as important as executing on the offensive end, and as of right now, Amare can't do it.
 
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Divide Et Impera

Divide Et Impera

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Most other teams consider a 6-8 point lead in the 4th a decent cushion. This team, because of the philosophy, can't even consider a 20 point lead safe....
 

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To those that disagree with this thread - remember the premise. Suppose we blew it up, what would you propose? If you don't care, then don't worry about it. I doubt that Sarver and Kerr get their information from this board.
 

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Arizona's Finest:But against 95% of the teams 95% of the time teams will not be able to outshoot us. That is the model and it has worked so far.
It hasn't worked. It also hasn't worked for anybody else. This is NOT the model for which to win a title.
 

Arizona's Finest

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What do you base that on? The fact that Stoudemire has a jump shot? Howard is averaging 23.1 ppg this season (compared to 21.0 for Stoudemire) on 61% shooting (Stoudemire 59%). Sure, if you want, you can say that "all Howard does is dunk," but as Suns fans correctly pointed out when the same criticism was leveled at Stoudemire, why not dunk it every time if the defense can't stop you? Oh, and Howard is also averaging nearly 12 FTA per game, compared to not even 7 for Stoudemire. He bests Stoudemire in every category except free-throw accuracy, and even then the gap isn't enormous -- about one fewer make for every six attempts.

Howard is slightly superior to Stoudemire on offense and miles ahead of him in defense and rebounding. At this point there really is no comparison between the two players.

eric - arguments are not done in a vacuum. This isn't a 20 games into the 2007 season analysis. It was only a couple years ago that Stoudamire averaged close to 28 points a game. I would also vehemently argue that Stoudemire has 6 or 7 other guys that can be the main offensive weapon on any night. Howard has one legit option (lewis) and then ...maybe Hedo? Of course you will retort that Nash gets STAT the majority of his points but I would say another PG maybe more inclined to just dump it into the big man insted of trying to get the best shot possible for the other three. Its semantics really but all it takes is a keen eye. Not only does stoudemire have a jump shot but he handles the ball better, passes better, has more touch and moves around the basket. Howard is more of a physical force while Amare is a more refined player. That may change in time but given what I have seen up until this point with both players I dont think there is any question that Amare is the better offensive player.

Yes, this is a good point. Stoudemire has done very well for a #9 pick, and the Suns are lucky to have him. I'm in full agreement there. Howard was supposed to have fantastic potential, and he is living up to that, but that's not Stoudemire's fault.

Okay - we are getting somewhere


This argument never holds water. Do you know why coaches and GMs are quickly fired? Because they make mistakes. A lot of mistakes. Sure, sometimes they are fired for other reasons, but they are often fired for incompetence. So, given that we know they make mistakes, isn't it theoretically possible for us mere fans to detect them? Why wouldn't it be? After all, we don't have any difficulty detecting officiating mistakes, but those guys are paid professionals too.

Of course GM's make mistakes. So do Doctors - that doesn't mean I would rather have you operating on me then an actual doctor. The problem is we as fans 90% of the time spout stuff off without any regards for cap implications, ticket sales, team chemistry, practice, unseen development, etc. We LIKE to think we know whats best for the team but in reality there are just so many mitigating factors. Its easy for us fanboys to sit here with nothing on the line and spout off theoretical trades - its a whole different ball game to be in the middle of the fire. There are def GM's and owners that don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. But Kerr is nothing but smart by all accounts and has not made any boneheaded moves where we should be deriding him so. This isn't the Sixers here - lets give our 60 win Suns the benefit of the doubt.


Which is exactly why there won't be any changes. Sarver, Kerr and D'Antoni are saying the same thing you are: "Eh, we've got problems, but come playoff time, who knows, we might get lucky." You can't refer to "low post needs" and then simultaneously declare that there aren't any. This team has real problems, but they'd rather cross their fingers and pray than take a serious look at how those problems could be addressed.

Again - you are gettin what they are spinning you. They say something pubicly in case nothing can be done the HAVE to give the confidence that they can win with this team. And righfully they have every reason to think they can. Anyone else remember 2005 when we were much thinner upfront and with less of a bench? But I seriously doubt that they are not aware of the problems. We all read Coro's report about all the close door meetings after the Miami game. Again - lets see what happens come April before we start polishing the brass on the titanic.

And most of the fans are behind them, so you can't blame them. As Chris Sanders and others have eloquently pointed out, everything on this team is a success according to the goals the organization has set for itself. There is absolutely no reason to make a change, and that would be true even if they could look into the future and see a guaranteed early playoff exit.

I completley disagree here. You think guys like Sarver, Kerr, and DA are not hell bent to win. Sure they are not throwing arond money like the Knicks but we are literally in the top of teams willing to spend to keep its talent. And Sarver is a business man - you think if the bottom line only is money that he doesn't realize that a title makes him that much more money? Guys there are financial constraints - get over it. Its not like we are the Florida Marlins or something. I have hated some of the penny pinching moves too but if we don't win its because the players ON THE TEAM didn't play up to expectations in a playoff series. Thats all. Talent wise, coach wise, culture wise, and team wise we have what we need to win. PJ Brown would certainly help. But we can win. Take that to the bank.

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To the OP I agree with you about Amare and posted message pretty much echoing what you said.

I say offer up Amare to the Hawks for Josh Smith and Acie Law and trade filler to make it work. Trade Marion to Chicago for Tyrus Thomas/Nocioni or Loul Deng and filler to make it work. We get younger, stay competitive and we can hope we come up with a great pick this year.

(Note: when I say "filler to make it work" I mean I have no idea about the cap rules but I would trade Banks/picks/Tucker etc as needed or possible)
 
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mjb21aztd

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Whatever anyone says Amare isn't going anyone if any player gets traded it will be marion period. But I don't think anyone is getting trade the suns will try to win the title one more time with this current lineup which probally won't happen... But if we don't win it this year then we most defintally need to make some sort of trade next year
 

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