Blow it up....

[Chris_Sanders]

Whatever anyone says Amare isn't going anyone if any player gets traded it will be marion period. But I don't think anyone is getting trade the suns will try to win the title one more time with this current lineup which probally won't happen... But if we don't win it this year then we most defintally need to make some sort of trade next year

The local radio has been talking at length about how the Suns attempted to move Amare in the off-season.

 

[elindholm]

ts semantics really but all it takes is a keen eye. Not only does stoudemire have a jump shot but he handles the ball better, passes better, has more touch and moves around the basket.

So in other words, your argument is, "Stoudemire is better offensively than Howard because my eyes are better than yours and I say so." Well, there ain't no arguin' that, so I guess the case is closed.

Of course GM's make mistakes. So do Doctors - that doesn't mean I would rather have you operating on me then an actual doctor.

This analogy doesn't quite hold up. A surgeon has a trained physical skill that laypeople haven't developed. A basketball coach or GM has no such physical skill; he has decision making. Your analogy should have been, "... that doesn't mean I would rather have you diagnosing my illness than an actual doctor." But in fact, I can absolutely guarantee you that there are times that you would rather have me diagnose your illness. Doctors make incorrect diagnoses all the time, and there is overwhelming evidence that patients are in much better shape when they do the research they need to assist with their own diagnoses -- even sometimes overruling their doctors (by insisting on alternate opinions). Within my own family, I've had doctors blow diagnoses for both cancer and a ruptured Achilles tendon.

So if you want to make the correct doctor analogy, go ahead, but it doesn't strengthen your argument.

The problem is we as fans 90% of the time spout stuff off without any regards for cap implications, ticket sales, team chemistry, practice, unseen development, etc.

* I think you know that I understand cap implications just fine.
* Sure, ticket sales are important. Yet the evidence continues to pour in that the Suns are among the most profitable franchises in the league. So it doesn't seem like that's exactly a critical issue these days.
* Are you saying that team chemistry is good right now? If you agree that it's poor, we're on the same page, so this isn't an issue either.
* What do you think we'd learn from practice? We see the Suns' personnel for what they are and the weaknesses of the team for what they are. Are you suggesting that Stoudemire is a better rebounder in practice, or something like that? Please give me one idea of a "practice secret" that would be relevant to this discussion.
* Unseen development? Of whom? Are you suggesting that the Suns are going to start working other players into the rotation as the season progresses? We both know that's laughable.

We LIKE to think we know whats best for the team but in reality there are just so many mitigating factors. Its easy for us fanboys to sit here with nothing on the line and spout off theoretical trades - its a whole different ball game to be in the middle of the fire.

Thanks for the clarification. For a moment there, I thought I was the one running the 400-million-dollar business.

If Kerr is as smart as you say he is, you know as well as I do that he sees serious flaws with this team. So I'm not even sure what we're arguing about. Kerr would make a trade if he thought it would help the team and if it fit within Sarver's pocketbook. But ultimately, he's a rookie GM without much clout, and he's probably less courageous than a savvy veteran GM would be. So his threshold for making a trade will be higher than some. A different GM in Kerr's position -- an equally "smart" one, or perhaps even a smarter one -- would be more willing to make a trade. It comes down to temperament, and Kerr might be the perfect fit for this frachise at the moment, but he also might not be.

Again - you are gettin what they are spinning you. They say something pubicly in case nothing can be done the HAVE to give the confidence that they can win with this team.

There are too many typos here for me to be sure what you meant, but I think you mean that the front office believes this team can win a title. So, yes, I believe it too, the same way I believe I can win the WSOP main event. With the right combination of lucky bounces, it's definitely possible. But if the Suns were dead serious about winning a title, the question wouldn't be, "Can we win with this team?" The question would be, "Does this team give us the best chance to win?" And the answer to the second question is obviously No. It simply isn't possible for a thinking person to dispute that.

Again - lets see what happens come April before we start polishing the brass on the titanic.

What's the point? We already know what's going to happen in April. Someone will have an injury, perhaps not enough to keep him out of the lineup, but enough to slow him down. Nash will get mugged on every play and this board will be up in arms about how the officials don't give him any respect. Stoudemire will throw away at least one game with some boneheaded, adolescent temper tantrum. D'Antoni will grin from the sideline while the team blows a 23-point third-quarter lead. Marion will be called upon to step up his offensive game and won't be able to do it. The Suns will get crushed on the boards and their fast-break offense will dry up. And when the Suns are eliminated, D'Antoni will shrug and say, "We had a good year, but things didn't just fall our way at the end," and this board will look for some other factor to blame instead of acknowledging that we knew all along that the team simply isn't built for the playoffs. Then the more optimistic of the diehards will start talking about the Atlanta pick becoming a key contributor, or Elton Brand opting out and signing with the Suns for the MLE, or Jesus Christ coming out of retirement and taking the minimum.

I mean, really, do we have to wait until April to go through all of that again? Why is it necessary?

I completley disagree here. You think guys like Sarver, Kerr, and DA are not hell bent to win. Sure they are not throwing arond money like the Knicks but we are literally in the top of teams willing to spend to keep its talent.

In the top how many? The Suns are tenth in team payroll. Did you know that? They're about $1.5 million ahead of the Spurs and well behind the other contenders (Dallas, Boston, Cleveland, Houston if you like).

And Sarver is a business man - you think if the bottom line only is money that he doesn't realize that a title makes him that much more money?

I think he has calculated that spending an extra $15 million for a 25% better chance at a title isn't worth it. And yes, I just made those numbers up, but it's something like that. Probably if he felt that overspending would guarantee a title, he would do it, but of course it doesn't work that way, and he doesn't want to take on the financial risk.

At least eight owners this season will spend more than Sarver and not win a title. Think about that.

But anyway, it's not the payroll slashing that is really the issue anymore. Yes, it would have been nice to keep Kurt Thomas, or Jones, or both draft picks, but that didn't happen. The question is where this team is now, with the financial constraints that they have, and whether they could be improved by a trade. I think they could be.

PJ Brown would certainly help. But we can win. Take that to the bank.

You need to get Brown out of your head. He's not coming.

Again, asking whether the Suns "can" win is not the right question. I think that's our fundamental disagreement.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

So in other words, your argument is, "Stoudemire is better offensively than Howard because my eyes are better than yours and I say so." Well, there ain't no arguin' that, so I guess the case is closed.

Thats not my argument and you know it. You have watched Dwight Howard play. Would you say his post moves, mid range jump shot, and touch around the basket are better than Amare's? If you do then we will have to agree to disagree. You used a small sample size from this year (his first break out year) regarding his ppg and FG% being better than Amare thus making him the "slightly" better offensive player. Thats specitious reasoning. And i pointed out why in my rebuttal. You just chose to highlight some of my quote to make YOUR point.


This analogy doesn't quite hold up. A surgeon has a trained physical skill that laypeople haven't developed. A basketball coach or GM has no such physical skill; he has decision making. Your analogy should have been, "... that doesn't mean I would rather have you diagnosing my illness than an actual doctor." But in fact, I can absolutely guarantee you that there are times that you would rather have me diagnose your illness. Doctors make incorrect diagnoses all the time, and there is overwhelming evidence that patients are in much better shape when they do the research they need to assist with their own diagnoses -- even sometimes overruling their doctors (by insisting on alternate opinions). Within my own family, I've had doctors blow diagnoses for both cancer and a ruptured Achilles tendon.

So if you want to make the correct doctor analogy, go ahead, but it doesn't strengthen your argument.

I don't even know where to start on this. GM's and coaches are hired because of their years of experience of watching games, evaluating talent, making decisions for 400 million dollar franchises, and numerous other basketball and business related experiences. Like every other job they are hired because they have applicable experience. Watching alot of NBA does not qualify you as having experience to think you can accurately do that job. Just like me being able to hear you sneeze and tell you have a cold doesn't make me qualified to diagnose your illnesses from that point on. Like any line of work - there are people who are good and there are people who are bad at what they do. That doesn't mean with an gun to your head that you would do any better. In fact you having no prior qualification would almost GUARANTEE you were worse then 95% of actual GM's

And no - there is not likely any situation where I would prefer you diagnose me than a ACTUAL doctor. Thanks for the help with the analogy though.


* I think you know that I understand cap implications just fine.
* Sure, ticket sales are important. Yet the evidence continues to pour in that the Suns are among the most profitable franchises in the league. So it doesn't seem like that's exactly a critical issue these days.
* Are you saying that team chemistry is good right now? If you agree that it's poor, we're on the same page, so this isn't an issue either.
* What do you think we'd learn from practice? We see the Suns' personnel for what they are and the weaknesses of the team for what they are. Are you suggesting that Stoudemire is a better rebounder in practice, or something like that? Please give me one idea of a "practice secret" that would be relevant to this discussion.
* Unseen development? Of whom? Are you suggesting that the Suns are going to start working other players into the rotation as the season progresses? We both know that's laughable.

I guess you are not getting what I am saying here. I am saying there is a lot more that goes into trades and FA signings that we could only begin to imagine. Its one thing to say "Lets trade Player X for PLayer Y - it works under the cap and it fills a need" - its a completly another to actually understand all the components that make that trade become a reality. And my point is as casual (or even diehard) fans - its naive to assume we know all that goes into those decisions.

Thanks for the clarification. For a moment there, I thought I was the one running the 400-million-dollar business.

If Kerr is as smart as you say he is, you know as well as I do that he sees serious flaws with this team. So I'm not even sure what we're arguing about. Kerr would make a trade if he thought it would help the team and if it fit within Sarver's pocketbook. But ultimately, he's a rookie GM without much clout, and he's probably less courageous than a savvy veteran GM would be. So his threshold for making a trade will be higher than some. A different GM in Kerr's position -- an equally "smart" one, or perhaps even a smarter one -- would be more willing to make a trade. It comes down to temperament, and Kerr might be the perfect fit for this frachise at the moment, but he also might not be.

Again - you can know there are issues with your team and still not make everything come together for a trade. It is not as easy as snapping your fingers. Or do you have a Batphone into the FO that all of us are not aware of?

I would actually argue that if Kerr has evaluated the weaknesses and wants to make a trade its best that he holds out till near the deadline anyway to get the best deal possible. Of course this kind of sound logic would'nt change all the bitching and moaning to blow up the team WHO IS 17-6 TWO WEEKS INTO DECEMBER! I'm not saying a move doesn't or does need to get made (it depends on the deal obviously) - I'm just saying why is everyone up in arms all ready? i think it is a severe overreaction.

There are too many typos here for me to be sure what you meant, but I think you mean that the front office believes this team can win a title. So, yes, I believe it too, the same way I believe I can win the WSOP main event. With the right combination of lucky bounces, it's definitely possible. But if the Suns were dead serious about winning a title, the question wouldn't be, "Can we win with this team?" The question would be, "Does this team give us the best chance to win?" And the answer to the second question is obviously No. It simply isn't possible for a thinking person to dispute that.

No actually through all of my typos you managed to miss my point. I am saying that what the front office is saying to the general public and what they are actually thinking/doing behind the scenes are two completly different things.



What's the point? We already know what's going to happen in April. Someone will have an injury, perhaps not enough to keep him out of the lineup, but enough to slow him down. Nash will get mugged on every play and this board will be up in arms about how the officials don't give him any respect. Stoudemire will throw away at least one game with some boneheaded, adolescent temper tantrum. D'Antoni will grin from the sideline while the team blows a 23-point third-quarter lead. Marion will be called upon to step up his offensive game and won't be able to do it. The Suns will get crushed on the boards and their fast-break offense will dry up. And when the Suns are eliminated, D'Antoni will shrug and say, "We had a good year, but things didn't just fall our way at the end," and this board will look for some other factor to blame instead of acknowledging that we knew all along that the team simply isn't built for the playoffs. Then the more optimistic of the diehards will start talking about the Atlanta pick becoming a key contributor, or Elton Brand opting out and signing with the Suns for the MLE, or Jesus Christ coming out of retirement and taking the minimum.

I mean, really, do we have to wait until April to go through all of that again? Why is it necessary?

We just have different points of view. I want the Suns to win - You want the Suns to win. You think they need radical changes - I think it can be done through players being on point come April and maybe adding another big in a smaller transaction then trading Amare or Marion.



In the top how many? The Suns are tenth in team payroll. Did you know that? They're about $1.5 million ahead of the Spurs and well behind the other contenders (Dallas, Boston, Cleveland, Houston if you like).

Listen I have been on the "Sarver is cheap" bandwagon from the beginning when he let my beloved Joe go for 5 million dollars. Execept the reality is that the facts dispute that. He signed Nash, reupped Amare, signed Banks when backup PG was our most critical need, reupped Barbosa and Diaw when everyone was clamoring for that and on and on. Yeah he has sold draft picks. Yeah he has dumped salary. He's not Mark Cuban or James Dolan. But really no one else is. Your beloved Spurs did the same thing this offseason when they did a salary dump for the talented Luis Scola and traded him to a rival. I am sure many Spurs fans believe youthful frontcourt players are a high priority for the team as they try to compete year in and year out. Who knows Scola may end up being the difference should Duncan continue to be hobbled. My point is most teams have to deal with financial constraints. They might not make as many dump moves but thats because they are not reupping or signing as many players as this front office has shown over the past three years.

I think he has calculated that spending an extra $15 million for a 25% better chance at a title isn't worth it. And yes, I just made those numbers up, but it's something like that. Probably if he felt that overspending would guarantee a title, he would do it, but of course it doesn't work that way, and he doesn't want to take on the financial risk.

At least eight owners this season will spend more than Sarver and not win a title. Think about that.

But anyway, it's not the payroll slashing that is really the issue anymore. Yes, it would have been nice to keep Kurt Thomas, or Jones, or both draft picks, but that didn't happen. The question is where this team is now, with the financial constraints that they have, and whether they could be improved by a trade. I think they could be.

Agreed - my point is I don't think Amare or Marion need to be traded and that most fans on this site are overreacting. Thus the "blow it up" thread



You need to get Brown out of your head. He's not coming.

E - You always talk like you know something everyone else doesn't. Sure there is a good chance he doesn't come here. I think the reports have shown that if he does come back - it will likely be with the Suns. How can you be so sure? Writing in a demonstrative tone doesn't make you any more right.

Again, asking whether the Suns "can" win is not the right question. I think that's our fundamental disagreement.

You are right. Its just seems all the bitterness, calling for heads, and cynicism is a sad way to live life and enjoy your basketball team.

And I still think the team you see now is not the team you see come April. Whether that is internal improvement or whole sale changes - I am confident they won't sit on their hands. If not - thats when I will start bitching.

Answers in Blue

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

I did not read the black of blue parts

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Another low effort performance where we didn't play much D and got killed on the rebounds. Amare looks like he's on cruise control, and Shawn doesn't have any mental toughness. If this team had won a championship then I might be inclined to believe that we're just biding our time until the playoffs, but until they've shown they can turn it on, I have absolutely no faith.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Blowin it up!
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...~2177&teams=20~3~20~3~21~21~3~20~21&te=&cash=


Salaries work, send ATL'08 and PHI 09 to NO

Hornets may not bite but they get to move shotchucker Butler, get some good youth and some good draft picks.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Bump.

Bell is a ghost.

Nash is very good, but has a lot less of an effect anymore - probably age.

We have no perimeter offense.

Barbosa has always been a ghost against SA.

Diaw is an albatross.

Amare has the heart of a chump.

Shaq is doing everything that he humanly can.

D'Antoni needs to go yesterday and I have been saying that for at least 2 years.

We have no bench, or maybe we do, but we'd never know thanks to D'Antoni.

Blow it up.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Here's a start:

Nash restructures for a much friendlier cap hit extended over another 3 years and he begins the transition to a back up role via split duty with a PG (DJ Augustine?) next year.

Amare stays but the FO needs to sit him down and seriously challenge him. Put him in front of some game tape and teach him the X's and O's of the game. Hopefully he can learn and become a technician of the game.

I wish I could say that Shaq should restructure, but I don't think he'll want to play beyond these last 2 years, so that's out.

Hill. My God, what a warrior. We relied on him WAY to heavily during the season and now we have nothing from him. Keep him around, but as a back up.

Bell has been atrocious ALL year. Now he's a ghost, a shell of his former self. He is now a bench player. I'd love to keep him around for the bench, but he may be a necessary trade asset.

Barbosa has high value to low contract number. He will be packaged with a bad contract (ie, Diaw) to net us a good piece. How does Barbosa/Diaw for Outlaw/Rodriguez sound to you?

The FO needs to bite the bullet on the LT. For f*cks sake, it's been 40 years! Spend some damned money! Here's where we get Mike Miller somehow, or Pietrus, or Artest or someone else we can take in with the TE we have from KT.

 

[elindholm]

There is no mechanism for players to restructure their contracts as you are proposing.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Yeah. I realized that a little bit ago. I was thinking in terms of the NFL cap....

Oh well. Sucks for us....

 

[mojorizen7]

First step is a new philosophy.

 

[mojorizen7]

IMO Toronto would be the team to call in terms of moving Nash........ or maybe Portland.
Make a call to Nellie in G.S. and dangle Barbosa.

 

[CaptainInsano]

GS will be under the cap I believe, so we should try and get a 1st and 2nd rounder from them this year or next for barbosa.

Someone will obviously want to take nash, just get an expiring contract and a 1st round draft pick.

Shop amare for 2 first round draft picks (like the gasol trade) to a contender that has expiring contract(s) to swap.

We are not going to build a title contender around amare in 3-4 years, portland will still be there, NO will still be there, LA will still be there. It will come in 5+ years and by then Amare will be gone anyway. Time for people to accept the reality with Amare. Time to get some value before his knee breaks out in a year or two to continue the suns curse.

Bell or Hill could be used to make salaries match if need be.

We are stuck with shaq and diaw, per their salaries they are worthless.

If we can execute the above, we will have a bunch of draft picks to play around with, possible lottery pick with our own pick next year.

2010 will suck, but then we will be in the middile of rebuilding with our picks we got in the above trades anyway.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

What's the point? We already know what's going to happen in April. Someone will have an injury, perhaps not enough to keep him out of the lineup, but enough to slow him down. Nash will get mugged on every play and this board will be up in arms about how the officials don't give him any respect. Stoudemire will throw away at least one game with some boneheaded, adolescent temper tantrum. D'Antoni will grin from the sideline while the team blows a 23-point third-quarter lead. Marion will be called upon to step up his offensive game and won't be able to do it. The Suns will get crushed on the boards and their fast-break offense will dry up. And when the Suns are eliminated, D'Antoni will shrug and say, "We had a good year, but things didn't just fall our way at the end," and this board will look for some other factor to blame instead of acknowledging that we knew all along that the team simply isn't built for the playoffs. Then the more optimistic of the diehards will start talking about the Atlanta pick becoming a key contributor, or Elton Brand opting out and signing with the Suns for the MLE, or Jesus Christ coming out of retirement and taking the minimum.

I mean, really, do we have to wait until April to go through all of that again? Why is it necessary?

lol, right on the money.

 

[dodie53]

GS will be under the cap I believe, so we should try and get a 1st and 2nd rounder from them this year or next for barbosa.

Someone will obviously want to take nash, just get an expiring contract and a 1st round draft pick.

Shop amare for 2 first round draft picks (like the gasol trade) to a contender that has expiring contract(s) to swap.

We are not going to build a title contender around amare in 3-4 years, portland will still be there, NO will still be there, LA will still be there. It will come in 5+ years and by then Amare will be gone anyway. Time for people to accept the reality with Amare. Time to get some value before his knee breaks out in a year or two to continue the suns curse.

Bell or Hill could be used to make salaries match if need be.

We are stuck with shaq and diaw, per their salaries they are worthless.

If we can execute the above, we will have a bunch of draft picks to play around with, possible lottery pick with our own pick next year.

2010 will suck, but then we will be in the middile of rebuilding with our picks we got in the above trades anyway.

sad but true

 

[B-Dogg]

It comes down to the fact that you simply cannot trade away 1st round draft picks. They are like gold, cheap contracts and solid bench players if not starters if you draft well. Unfortunately we took on some bad contracts and Sarver refused to eat any money and now we have a rebuilding project to look forward to, there is simply to much young talented teams in both the West and the East now for the Suns and honestly for the Spurs (after one more year) to compete with. Atlanta, Philly, Orlando, Cleveland (Lebron), Toronto, NO, LA, Utah, GS, Portland, Houston, and im sure im forgetting some all have more talent than the Suns current roster and are alot younger. Unless there is a miracle this year it's time to blow it up...

 

[ozzfloyd]

Stat and Nash to Orlando for Howard.

Draft a point this year.

Barbosa (#1 pick)
Bell/Giri
Hill/Diaw
Howard/Diaw
Shaq/Skinner
Miss the playoffs next year. Get a good pick. Shaq off the books, Hill off the book. Get a FA or 2 with that cash.

 

[Ryanwb]

Stat and Nash to Orlando for Howard.

Why O Why would Orlando do this?

 

[82CardsGrad]

Why O Why would Orlando do this?

Because ozzfloyd wants them to...

 

[ozzfloyd]

Because ozzfloyd wants them to...

I think a Stat/Nash package could net nearly any single player in the league. Orlando would take a small step down at the PF and a big step up at PG. In the short term this would make them much better IMO. 2 starters for one.

 

[Renz]

Why O Why would Orlando do this?

Seriously. Orlando wouldn't do that trade in 1,000 years.

 

[dodie53]

Stat and Nash to Orlando for Howard.

i think orlando will not do that

 

[CaptainInsano]

Orlando would never do that:

Howard is a rebounding beast, one of the greatest in the history of the game. Putting up 20 points 20 rebound games is unbelievable.

Howard can play pretty good defense.

Amare can score and score only, he is a pathetic rebounder for his size and build.

Amare is a terrible, terrible defender.

 

[dodie53]

maybe JC would get Nash out of Phoenix?

 

[jandaman]

Stoudemire + Piatkowski (re-signed) + Skinner (re-signed)

for

Blazers Pick (Top 15) + LaMarcus Aldridge + Travis Outlaw + Jarret Jack + Joel Pryzibilla


Works in trade checker...

Why for Suns,
As good as Stoudemire is, they need to fill out other positions with quality players.

Why for Blazers,
Too young, needs a veteran...

Lineups
C: O'Neal/Pryzibilla
PF: L.Aldridge/Diaw
SF: Hill/Outlaw/
SG: Bell/Barbosa
PG: Nash/Jack

Then you have 2 top 15 lottery picks, trade for a top 10 or top 5.... and you have a pretty deep team, Suns re-tooled with Youth and Speed.... defense increases, athletism.... Run and Gun continues...


Blazers:
C: Oden/McRoberts
PF: Stoudemire/Frye
SF: Webster/Jones
SG Roy/ Kopponen
PG: Blake/Rodriguez

Looking at it, why would Blazers trade?. Its for them to reject, especially since they dont know how good Oden will play.

Maybe they swap picks instead, a Roy/Stoudemire/Oden line-up is tremendous.