Booker Question

[Covert Rain]

Booker might be a “Franchise player” for a middling playoff pretender type team, but I think jury is still out if he can be a “Franchise Player” for a title contender year in, year out. The straw that stirs this team’s drink is CP3, IMO. He can consistently control a game/team as the unquestioned leader all on his own, totally control at least half of the game and be able to do so either by scoring or initiating an entire offense successfully. Book has yet to prove that.

But he’s definitely taken steps forward towards that goal this year. Even from first half of the season to second half, I’ve noticed his passing ability has risen. The Lobs to Ayton have become much much more consistent and he’s added those laser bounce passes great passers make.

What's the definition of a franchise player? Because there are only a couple players in the entire league that make you an instant contender (i.e. LeBron). Outside of that almost every franchise player in the league needs a 2nd high caliber player to play alongside and get you there. Clearly, CP3 is perfect example of needing that other player to take the pressure off of you. Teams have been keying on Booker since he got here. He has basically been doing it himself.

I would argue that if he had that caliber player playing next to him the entire time, few would argue he is a franchise player.

It's an interesting argument because people all seem to have a different idea of what a franchise player is and even then often let the entire max player issues blur the discussion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah that was the time I started following the team.

Same. I knew the suns earlier and went to games as a kid, but it was in college with that squad that I fell in love with the suns and basketball. Thus kj has always been my favorite sun also.

 

[GatorAZ]

KJ was dominating playoff series at Book’s age. He was amazing before the injuries and weirdness.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah that was the time I started following the team.

same. I became a rabid fan of that team immediately at the age of 12. You had Chambers dunking on people’s faces, KJ was electric getting to the bucket, Horny throwing up crazy runners, EJ raining treys off the bench and Majerle was still pretty raw, but totally fearless. And they just ran teams out of the building.

 

[Cheesebeef]

KJ was dominating playoff series at Book’s age. He was amazing before the injuries and weirdness.

yup. He was dominating series 2 years younger than Book’s age now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What's the definition of a franchise player? Because there are only a couple players in the entire league that make you an instant contender (i.e. LeBron). Outside of that almost every franchise player in the league needs a 2nd high caliber player to play alongside and get you there. Clearly, CP3 is perfect example of needing that other player to take the pressure off of you. Teams have been keying on Booker since he got here. He has basically been doing it himself.

I would argue that if he had that caliber player playing next to him the entire time, few would argue he is a franchise player.

It's an interesting argument because people all seem to have a different idea of what a franchise player is and even then often let the entire max player issues blur the discussion.

I think a true franchise player is a guy who can pretty much singlehandedly make you a .500 team with almost nothing else on it.

 

[1tinsoldier]

imo, Booker = max player, but franchise player is debatable,
though when a team considers a player un-tradable and plans on building around him for the foreseeable future, the franchise label applies

but for now, i think of him as our key offensive weapon.
this team's ticket in these playoffs is their collective strength

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think a true franchise player is a guy who can pretty much singlehandedly make you a .500 team with almost nothing else on it.

How many players can realistically do that? LeBron is about the only guy in the league right now that has legitimately made something out of a truly untalented roster.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think a true franchise player is a guy who can pretty much singlehandedly make you a .500 team with almost nothing else on it.

I am curious how many players can actually do that on their own? I would have to think about it but I bet it's still not many. Again, I don't think Franchise player for me equals necessarily they can do it on their own. Franchise player to me means someone you can build around. Booker is a guy you can build around. Can he do it alone? No.

 

[Chaplin]

yup. He was dominating series 2 years younger than Book’s age now.

I always thought it was a shame that he was in an era that was dominated by Gary Payton and Tim Hardaway, I never thought he got the recognition he deserved at the time.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I am curious how many players can actually do that on their own. I would have to think about it but I bet it's not many. Again, I don't think Franchise player for me equals necessarily they can do it on their own. Franchise player to me means someone you can build around. Booker is a guy you can build around. Can he do it alone? No.

Exactly. Doing it on their own is someone who is an MVP level player and not just a franchise player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am curious how many players can actually do that on their own? I would have to think about it but I bet it's still not many. Again, I don't think Franchise player for me equals necessarily they can do it on their own. Franchise player to me means someone you can build around. Booker is a guy you can build around. Can he do it alone? No.

I’m not sure about Book being a guy you can build around. I think he’s the shooting guard version of Tom Chambers. Great scorer, but doesn’t do anything else great. Which is a great piece of a title contender, but not the kind of guy you’d want to start a team with because he’s only great at one skill.

The guys I listed in the first tier on the last page are guys who excel in multiple facets of the game. You have the guys that are so overpowering offensively both as scorers and playmakers like a Harden or Steph or Luka or Jokic, and the guys who can dominate at both ends like LeBron, Kawhi or Embiid.

Those are dudes you can put the right pieces around. The true Franchise Players. Like, Steph is on an awful team... and has them at .500 ball. Luka has half a Porzingis... and garbage and has them over .500. Harden has carried teams his entire career. I don’t think the Mavs are above .500 if you sub Book for Luka or the Warriors are even close to .500 with a Book/Steph swap simply because he’s not the elite playmaker those guys are.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I always thought it was a shame that he was in an era that was dominated by Gary Payton and Tim Hardaway, I never thought he got the recognition he deserved at the time.

those hamstring injuries during the Barkley run killed his notoriety. And then he was never quite the same. I also think had they won a title or two he would have gotten more due.

And as noted, he also played in a hellacious run of PGs: Magic, end of Isaiah, Stockton, Payton, Hardaway, etc.

 

[Finito]

I think a true franchise player is a guy who can pretty much singlehandedly make you a .500 team with almost nothing else on it.

those days are long gone. Everybody needs help the league is so good now

 

[Cheesebeef]

those days are long gone. Everybody needs help the league is so good now

disagree as far as the point made that the elite elite franchise guys can get teams to .500, which is the discussion. That’s how I gauged first tier Franchise Players. Even in this season, Steph and Luka are both cases that show one guy surrounded by mostly drek can still pretty much get teams to .500. Bron proved that two years ago pre-Davis before he got injured. Hell, Fat Harden was singlehandedly proving that this season with Houston as he had them at 11-10 before they traded him and then they proceeded to go 2-26 righ after.

those guy can’t make a team a contender on their own, but no one said they could. No one can nor has anyone ever really done that without a solid number two next to them. But the truly elite guys (and again, I think there’s really only 6-8 guys like this) can elevate just a “bunch of guys” to .500.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

disagree as far as the point made that the elite elite franchise guys can get teams to .500, which is the discussion. That’s how I gauged first tier Franchise Players. Even in this season, Steph and Luka are both cases that show one guy surrounded by mostly drek can still pretty much get teams to .500. Bron proved that two years ago pre-Davis before he got injured. Hell, Fat Harden was singlehandedly proving that this season with Houston as he had them at 11-10 before they traded him and then they proceeded to go 2-26 righ after.

those guy can’t make a team a contender on their own, but no one said they could. No one can nor has anyone ever really done that without a solid number two next to them. But the truly elite guys (and again, I think there’s really only 6-8 guys like this) can elevate just a “bunch of guys” to .500.

But could most of those first tier guys do it with the utter trash that Booker had around him 2-3 years ago? 2-3 of them probably, but the rest would be well under .500 with that complete lack of talent. Most of those guys haven't even been in nearly that bad of a situation for a comparison.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I always thought it was a shame that he was in an era that was dominated by Gary Payton and Tim Hardaway, I never thought he got the recognition he deserved at the time.

It was a crazy period for pgs.

cheeks
Hardaway
Magic
Isaiah
Kj
Stockton
Price
Porter
Harper
Baron Davis
Mark Jackson
Payton
Kenny Anderson

not all of them all overlapped for the same exact time periods but that’s a lot of talents to have played against each other.

 

[Covert Rain]

I’m not sure about Book being a guy you can build around. I think he’s the shooting guard version of Tom Chambers. Great scorer, but doesn’t do anything else great. Which is a great piece of a title contender, but not the kind of guy you’d want to start a team with because he’s only great at one skill.

The guys I listed in the first tier on the last page are guys who excel in multiple facets of the game. You have the guys that are so overpowering offensively both as scorers and playmakers like a Harden or Steph or Luka or Jokic, and the guys who can dominate at both ends like LeBron, Kawhi or Embiid.

Those are dudes you can put the right pieces around. The true Franchise Players. Like, Steph is on an awful team... and has them at .500 ball. Luka has half a Porzingis... and garbage and has them over .500. Harden has carried teams his entire career. I don’t think the Mavs are above .500 if you sub Book for Luka or the Warriors are even close to .500 with a Book/Steph swap simply because he’s not the elite playmaker those guys are.

Most of the guys didn't do it alone by themselves and their supporting cast was better than Booker's. In fact, I would say with some of those teams, swap Booker and he has those teams AT LEAST at .500.

But could most of those first tier guys do it with the utter trash that Booker had around him 2-3 years ago? 2-3 of them probably, but the rest would be well under .500 with that complete lack of talent. Most of those guys haven't even been in nearly that bad of a situation for a comparison.

This.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But could most of those first tier guys do it with the utter trash that Booker had around him 2-3 years ago? 2-3 of them probably, but the rest would be well under .500 with that complete lack of talent. Most of those guys haven't even been in nearly that bad of a situation for a comparison.

I don’t buy that. Two years ago, Booker is basically playing with the same trash as Steph. Steph has them at .500. Book’s team was the worst team in the league.

you put LeBron the 2019 team with a first round pick Ayton, Bridges, Oubre, Richaun Holmes and Warren for 43 games... he gets them to .500. That team also had Melton who’s proved to be an NBA player.

I think most of those MVP Level Franchise guys get that collection of talent to at or least near .500.

What those teams wouldn’t be with any of those guys is the worst team in the league and worst record ever for the Suns at 19-63. And that’s the biggest difference. I could even see the argument that the MVP level guys might only win mid 30’s, like 30-35 wins. But even that is a gulf of difference from that beyond putrid 19-63 record we had that year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Most of the guys didn't do it alone by themselves and their supporting cast was better than Booker's. In fact, I would say with some of those teams, swap Booker and he has those teams AT LEAST at .500.

I think you massively overrate Booker then. The 2018-19 team had some talent on it. Ayton, Warren for 43 games, Oubre, Bridges, Richaun Holmes, Melton. Harden gets that team to at least .500. All those guys probably do. Booker couldn’t elevate them at all. I mean, they were 21-61 the year BEFORE they got Ayton and Bridges and the next year they got those guys, they were WORSE at 19-63. His lack of elite playmaking ability is what keeps him from being a great player to build around because he doesn’t elevate others at an elite level.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think you massively overrate Booker then. The 2018-19 team had some talent on it. Ayton, Warren for 43 games, Oubre, Bridges, Richaun Holmes, Melton. Harden gets that team to at least .500. All those guys probably do. Booker couldn’t elevate them at all. I mean, they were 21-61 the year BEFORE they got Ayton and Bridges and the next year they got those guys, they were WORSE at 19-63. His lack of elite playmaking ability is what keeps him from being a great player to build around because he doesn’t elevate others at an elite level.

Saying I think Booker could get some of those teams to .500 is not overrating him. LOL. I didn't say for example replace Curry with Booker and Golden State still wins titles. We are talking about getting a team to .500.

Most of the Suns teams during the previous seasons had abysmal defenses. Nothing like this year. Many of the teams that you are talking about had way better defenses and supporting casts from top to bottom to boot. We will have to agree to disagree.

Up until now Ayton has not been much of a factor. Warren was spotty. Oubre spotty. Bridges this year is not the Bridges that we had previous years. Comparing multiple guys having breakout years this year to the way they played before this year is not even close what some of those other rosters had. Sounds like you are way overrating our old rosters.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think a true franchise player is a guy who can pretty much singlehandedly make you a .500 team with almost nothing else on it.

Wow. That's a pretty lofty definition. No wonder there are so many disagreements on this board. Our vocabulary is the same, but the dictionaries are quite different.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i'd put it this way. Booker on the floor helps his teammates by drawing the defense and he's a good passer, but i wouldn't say he makes his teammates better or elevates them. it's not unusual. studs like Harden and Westbrook don't either

but our teams trusted the judgement of KJ, Barkley, Kidd and Nash and took their ques from them. when they got mad, they got better and it was time for the team to get mad and rally.

when Booker gets mad it's usually time for him to take a seat on the bench so the team can regather and focus

what i liked best about Oubre was his timing in that regard. when the Suns started to slip he got mad and made a great hustle play and the team responded. his game didn't translate well to the Warriors, perhaps, because he felt like an outsider

 

[GatorAZ]

those hamstring injuries during the Barkley run killed his notoriety. And then he was never quite the same. I also think had they won a title or two he would have gotten more due.

And as noted, he also played in a hellacious run of PGs: Magic, end of Isaiah, Stockton, Payton, Hardaway, etc.

There was some mental stuff with him too confidence wise. Even after some of the hamstring issues he came back after 93’ and was a beast in some of those postseason series. Even in 97’ he averaged over 20ppg and became a 3pt threat. In those series vs Houston he was a one man backcourt. His legacy would be seen differently on a national scale with one title because Stockton, Payton, Nash and Kidd never won one at their peak.

 

[Cheesebeef]

There was some mental stuff with him too confidence wise. Even after some of the hamstring issues he came back after 93’ and was a beast in some of those postseason series. Even in 97’ he averaged over 20ppg and became a 3pt threat. In those series vs Houston he was a one man backcourt. His legacy would be seen differently on a national scale with one title because Stockton, Payton, Nash and Kidd never won one at their peak.

yup.