Booker Question

[Hoop Head]

I think you massively overrate Booker then. The 2018-19 team had some talent on it. Ayton, Warren for 43 games, Oubre, Bridges, Richaun Holmes, Melton. Harden gets that team to at least .500. All those guys probably do. Booker couldn’t elevate them at all. I mean, they were 21-61 the year BEFORE they got Ayton and Bridges and the next year they got those guys, they were WORSE at 19-63. His lack of elite playmaking ability is what keeps him from being a great player to build around because he doesn’t elevate others at an elite level.

Booker was just 22 years old in that season. Could Steph lead that team to the postseason or 500 ball at 22? No. The Warriors were awful throughout Steph's first few seasons. Maybe LeBron elevates that team at that age but that's probably it.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I don’t buy that. Two years ago, Booker is basically playing with the same trash as Steph. Steph has them at .500. Book’s team was the worst team in the league.

you put LeBron the 2019 team with a first round pick Ayton, Bridges, Oubre, Richaun Holmes and Warren for 43 games... he gets them to .500. That team also had Melton who’s proved to be an NBA player.

I think most of those MVP Level Franchise guys get that collection of talent to at or least near .500.

What those teams wouldn’t be with any of those guys is the worst team in the league and worst record ever for the Suns at 19-63. And that’s the biggest difference. I could even see the argument that the MVP level guys might only win mid 30’s, like 30-35 wins. But even that is a gulf of difference from that beyond putrid 19-63 record we had that year.

Hence I said 2-3 of them could..

Steph, LeBron and probably Harden could take a pretty untalented team and keep them afloat. Not terribly sure many others could. It takes a legit MVP caliber player to do it, but they also need to be someone that routinely comes up clutch at the end of games as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Booker was just 22 years old in that season. Could Steph lead that team to the postseason or 500 ball at 22? No. The Warriors were awful throughout Steph's first few seasons. Maybe LeBron elevates that team at that age but that's probably it.

nah... go look at the trash Harden played with at 22/23 on that Houston team that he single-handedly took to the playoffs.

and the Warriors weren’t winning with Steph at 22 because he was injured so much.

again, those guys might not have made that LEAGUE WORST team a playoff team, but they sure as hell wouldn’t have been anywhere close to a league worst 19-63.

 

[elindholm]

Wow. That's a pretty lofty definition. No wonder there are so many disagreements on this board. Our vocabulary is the same, but the dictionaries are quite different.

Exactly!

 

[TJ]

I think a true franchise player is a guy who can pretty much singlehandedly make you a .500 team with almost nothing else on it.

How many of those really exist in the league? Lebron is really the only one who comes to mind without debate. Recent trends have shown that franchise players need at least two other all-star caliber players along with a solid core of role players to make their teams successful.

 

[JCSunsfan]

How many of those really exist in the league? Lebron is really the only one who comes to mind without debate. Recent trends have shown that franchise players need at least two other all-star caliber players along with a solid core of role players to make their teams successful.

Man. Ya gotta dump that Avatar. Making me nauseous.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How many of those really exist in the league? Lebron is really the only one who comes to mind without debate. Recent trends have shown that franchise players need at least two other all-star caliber players along with a solid core of role players to make their teams successful.

i listed the 7 guys two pages ago.

again, I deem a true top tier franchise guy as someone you can surround with relative trash and that guy will still get you to .500 pretty much by himself. That’s how much of an impact they make. I’m not saying 1 guy alone can make you a contender. LeBron doesn’t even fit that category because that level of player simply doesn’t exist.

I’m saying there are still certain guys (when healthy) that single handedly get you to mediocre and then with a couple additions, can be year in year out contenders.

 

[Covert Rain]

How many of those really exist in the league? Lebron is really the only one who comes to mind without debate. Recent trends have shown that franchise players need at least two other all-star caliber players along with a solid core of role players to make their teams successful.

Exactly not many and most of those teams had better rosters top to bottom and way better defenses than the Suns who have been abysmal until lately. Many of those teams didn't have the coaches we had either which is another factor.

It would be fun to do a side by side roster comparison, stat comparison etc. Maybe if I have some time I will take a look.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

i listed the 7 guys two pages ago.

again, I deem a true top tier franchise guy as someone you can surround with relative trash and that guy will still get you to .500 pretty much by himself. That’s how much of an impact they make. I’m not saying 1 guy alone can make you a contender. LeBron doesn’t even fit that category because that level of player simply doesn’t exist.

I’m saying there are still certain guys (when healthy) that single handedly get you to mediocre and then with a couple additions, can be year in year out contenders.

I feel like that is virtually unquantifiable. Most guys will never be in said situation to prove that they could carry said team to a .500 record. Booker for instance was not only surrounded by G-League talent, but also had poor coaching. Could all of those 7 players carry a trash roster with bad coaching to a .500 record (especially early in their career)? Seems unlikely.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I feel like that is virtually unquantifiable. Most guys will never be in said situation to prove that they could carry said team to a .500 record. Booker for instance was not only surrounded by G-League talent, but also had poor coaching. Could all of those 7 players carry a trash roster with bad coaching to a .500 record (especially early in their career)? Seems unlikely.

I was going to make the comment about coaching. Book had no consistency in his first three years. The players Book had to carry not only were G-league talent, but worse. They were G-leaguers who thought they were stars in the making.

There was JJ throwing his teammates under the bus in press conferences after he had thrown the ball away tons of times in the game.
And Bender who would pass up easy shots to dump it back to Book for an end of the shot clock heave it up situation.
then Trevor "I want ta leave ya"
Remember Mike James playing 1-5 like he was Alan Iverson, and then Isaiah Canaan doing the same?

Brandon Knight, the corpse of Tyson Chandler, Marquese Chriss. Yikes. Those were some horribly formed teams. Not sure even LeBron would have had the patience to try to win with such a crew.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was going to make the comment about coaching. Book had no consistency in his first three years. The players Book had to carry not only were G-league talent, but worse. They were G-leaguers who thought they were stars in the making.

There was JJ throwing his teammates under the bus in press conferences after he had thrown the ball away tons of times in the game.
And Bender who would pass up easy shots to dump it back to Book for an end of the shot clock heave it up situation.
then Trevor "I want ta leave ya"
Remember Mike James playing 1-5 like he was Alan Iverson, and then Isaiah Canaan doing the same?

Brandon Knight, the corpse of Tyson Chandler, Marquese Chriss. Yikes. Those were some horribly formed teams. Not sure even LeBron would have had the patience to try to win with such a crew.

you guys are talking about teams I didn’t mention... forget it. You guys either keep ignoring the points in my argument or move the goalposts to suit your own.

Believe that Booker is a true title contending 1 if you want. We’ll see if that’s the case once CP3, the unquestioned leader of the team is gone.

 

[1tinsoldier]

this quote says it all:

"Monty Williams said Devin Booker is like Chris Paul was 10 years ago in terms of "wanting to take on the world every single play."

Chris Paul, today, is one of the top stories in the league for his measured and mature approach to the game now

Booker is not a selfish player like Iverson, Westbrook, and, yes, his idol Kobe -- all who had that "take on the world" mentality too. but not trusting and maximizing the output of their other 4 teammates on the floor is a flaw smart playoff teams can and will exploit

Jordan wanted to take on the world too but came to understand that winning required using all the weapons at his disposal

but there are signs that Monty is working on what Book needs to do to get to the next level

in the first 3 minutes of the Sac game (when players are more apt to stick to the plan) Book passed up a wide open 3 to give it to Bridges who made the 3. Then he directed Ayton into position for a pass and Ayton scored inside. Later he seemed determined to get back on track with his own 3's, and did partially, but Monty not putting him in until the 5 minute mark of the 4th tells me he wanted to see if the others could duplicate their success the prior game without Book in control.

if i recall, Book returned to make some important baskets but also missed a few, had a turnover or 2 and fouled a 3pt shooter
-- trying to "take on the world", perhaps?

 

[1tinsoldier]

The Suns tried screens to get Holiday off Booker. It didn't work. Everyone knew Booker would dribble around and he would take the last shot.
He ended up taking tough shots in regulation and in overtime.
Hero ball is not what got the Suns to where they are now. We have multiple playmakers and shooters on this team. We will have major trouble at the end of close games until the coaches and Booker make use of these players.
Jordan, if not the greatest then at least one if the greatest, understood this as the Suns fans well remember.

exactly. and i pointed that out when it happened 12 days ago

...both he and Monty need to get serious
he's the 10th best 3 pt shooter on the team
we needed 1 point to win in regulation
he had no business taking a 3 after not making one all night

the same scenario twice tonight
we only needed a 2 pt shot or 1 free throw to win and we settled for a Booker isolation and a 3 pt attempt.

not acceptable.
especially when we've got one of the best passing teams in the league, 2 of the best mid-range shooters in the game, and enough time on the clock to run a good play.

 

[JCSunsfan]

you guys are talking about teams I didn’t mention... forget it. You guys either keep ignoring the points in my argument or move the goalposts to suit your own.

Believe that Booker is a true title contending 1 if you want. We’ll see if that’s the case once CP3, the unquestioned leader of the team is gone.

Cheese. I wasn’t really trying to disagree with you, I was just wondering out loud if ANY player could have carried that bunch that Booker was surrounded with to the playoffs. Not sure even MJ could have done it.

it’s certainly your right to define franchise player however you want to. When I use the term, I do not mean it the same way you do.

Is that what we were talking about?. I am losing track.

 

[95pro]

The MO is out on Booker and Saric, dont fall for their pump fakes just stay down and let them take their shots. Booker was awful last night against the Bucks, more on the defensive side than offense.

Closing games out is has been an issue this year and showed again last night.

 

[Hoop Head]

The MO is out on Booker and Saric, dont fall for their pump fakes just stay down and let them take their shots. Booker was awful last night against the Bucks, more on the defensive side than offense.

Closing games out is has been an issue this year and showed again last night.

Closing games out pretty or easily has been a problem but their record indicates closing games isn't the issue some fans here make it out to be.

I know I'm guilty of being overly harsh on Ayton even when the team is playing well and he's playing ok so I know I'm guilty of focusing on negatives during a season where there really hasn't been many, especially compared to this last decade.

We're a playoff team that's headed towards having home court advantage in the first round. Over the last 5-6 years all us Suns fans have looked forward to is how many pingpong balls we'd get in the lottery. Even if we choke in the playoffs this year, so long as we aren't swept in the first round, I'm ecstatic with this teams growth and progress.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Here's an interesting video about Booker's play this year. Also made me realize that Booker is number 1 in points per touch this year among players averaging at least 20 ppg.

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[AzStevenCal]

The MO is out on Booker and Saric, dont fall for their pump fakes just stay down and let them take their shots. Booker was awful last night against the Bucks, more on the defensive side than offense.

Closing games out is has been an issue this year and showed again last night.

We're not perfect that's for sure and I cringe when Devin keeps the ball in late game situations but all things considered, I think we close out teams pretty well - almost as well as we give up big leads before it becomes time to close it out.

 

[1tinsoldier]

yes, Booker's been a great scorer this year -- mixes it up and shares the ball efficiently in the regular flow during most of the game, as does the whole team. but i'd like to see a video compilation of his shots the last few minutes of close games

what's his crunch-time efficiency this season?

that incredible shot he sank against the Clips in the bubble may have been a curse, because Kay Ray, and most others, just assume the ball should be his in these situations (and if the defense didn't assume the same, it might work, but they do, and it don't)

btw, Doncic is increasing his reputation for late game heroics, but doesn't he take all Dallas' shots at the end of games? how many is he missing?

 

[taz02]

I just think we need to mix it up a bit on those last second shots. Why not CP3 on occasion? he can shoot the midrange jumper pass to Booker or lob to Ayton. It will keep other teams guessing and should make it easier on Booker. In the Bucks win the entire team stood there for 4.5-5 seconds and didn't even move while Booker dribbled with Holiday in his face. I'd say the suns got lucky on that call. Your not getting it against Lebron in the playoffs.

 

[95pro]

I just think we need to mix it up a bit on those last second shots. Why not CP3 on occasion? he can shoot the midrange jumper pass to Booker or lob to Ayton. It will keep other teams guessing and should make it easier on Booker. In the Bucks win the entire team stood there for 4.5-5 seconds and didn't even move while Booker dribbled with Holiday in his face. I'd say the suns got lucky on that call. Your not getting it against Lebron in the playoffs.

yes that all teams need to do in the last 2 minutes against us

 

[Mainstreet]

I just think we need to mix it up a bit on those last second shots. Why not CP3 on occasion? he can shoot the midrange jumper pass to Booker or lob to Ayton. It will keep other teams guessing and should make it easier on Booker. In the Bucks win the entire team stood there for 4.5-5 seconds and didn't even move while Booker dribbled with Holiday in his face. I'd say the suns got lucky on that call. Your not getting it against Lebron in the playoffs.

One of the problems in the final seconds, the Suns really only have two shot creators. That's Devin Booker and Cam Payne. Frequently there are a few seconds on the clock. If you pass it to someone else on the in-bounds they will probably be quickly doubled and never get a shot off.

Devin Booker is creative enough to drive or shoot even if a double team comes. If Chris Paul is doubled, it's harder for him to create. At this point, I don't think the Suns are ready to put it in the hands of Cam Payne.

I would like for the Suns design some quick pass plays for a designed open shooter. A quick pass to Ayton or Bridges might work.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

One of the problems in the final seconds, the Suns really only have two shot creators. That's Devin Booker and Cam Payne. Frequently there are a few seconds on the clock. If you pass it to someone else on the in-bounds they will probably be quickly doubled and never get a shot off.

Devin Booker is creative enough to drive or shoot even if a double team comes. If Chris Paul is doubled, it's harder for him to create. At this point, I don't think the Suns are ready to put it in the hands of Cam Payne.

I would like for the Suns design some quick pass plays for a designed open shooter. A quick pass to Ayton or Bridges might work.

I think it makes sense to just put the ball in the hands of the guy you would want taking the shot. That being said they ran a set play for Booker to get a game winner against Dallas and it's one of the few times he has hit a huge shot this year. Seems like they need more of that.

 

[taz02]

One of the problems in the final seconds, the Suns really only have two shot creators. That's Devin Booker and Cam Payne. Frequently there are a few seconds on the clock. If you pass it to someone else on the in-bounds they will probably be quickly doubled and never get a shot off.

Devin Booker is creative enough to drive or shoot even if a double team comes. If Chris Paul is doubled, it's harder for him to create. At this point, I don't think the Suns are ready to put it in the hands of Cam Payne.

I would like for the Suns design some quick pass plays for a designed open shooter. A quick pass to Ayton or Bridges might work.

Interesting. Seems like CP3 can create for himself particularly if there is 4-5 seconds or more. Certainly don't want Payne with the ball in the final seconds. Establishing another go to play may not be a bad idea before the playoffs start at least to keep the defense guessing.

 

[Mainstreet]

Interesting. Seems like CP3 can create for himself particularly if there is 4-5 seconds or more. Certainly don't want Payne with the ball in the final seconds. Establishing another go to play may not be a bad idea before the playoffs start at least to keep the defense guessing.

Yes. Paul needs time to pass before the double team comes and I suspect if he receives the in-bounds pass directly the defense will collapse quickly.

With Booker keeping the ball the Suns are generally guaranteed a shot if not always the best one.

Maybe down the road we will see Booker drive and then pass to a slashing Ayton going to the basket. One of the limiting factors, Ayton's hands have not been sure enough thus far.