Originally posted by Ottawa Card
Enjoyed the read... but, if your right... how the hell did he get an estimated 40 million dollar contract out of Denver, and Shanahan saying earlier this week that they'll pick up his option.
What you listed as requirements for success could cover just about every QB since Sammy Baugh. And, if we draft Eli... it will be needed in his case too. His brother, meeting all of the intangibles... couldn't carry the Colts to ONE win in the playoffs until today. I'm not arguing... that Jake is headed for the Hall of Fame, but merely that he has been a difference maker for Denver this year... and their record when he wasn't in gives some evidence to this point.
If almost anyone can thrive in the Shanahan system, then why did the back-ups only win 1 of 5 opportunities?
P.S. if you're going to use that juvenile term "sucks" in your response... please don't bother...
He got the big contract because of a combo of factors.
Shanahan had to tab someone as the next QB. If the Broncos did bad this year shanahan was probably gone. Plummer from an outside perspective no doubt was an intriguing prospect. He can run, and has been known to have comebacks and be a pretty good leader in most respects. Some of plummer's style of play is consistent with elway...i.e. comebacks, bootlegs, etc.
The town is still on an Elway high and if another QB can be said to be most like Elway in recent years, it was plummer. So the public won't mind 40 mill for a Elway kind of guy. The coach is enamored with his own ability to coach up players, and believes he has the best system on the planet. So the coach ontop of being his make or break year would not object to bringing in plummer. Most owners shell out the cap, and sometimes more in order win (cap woes later), so the owner wouldn't object.
Plummer also had an inflated figure; based on what they thought griese was worth and gave to him, based on the fact plummer has one of the best agents in sports known for high dollar deals, based on the fact that plummer was coming off of a contract that called for a cap number of between 7-9 million his final year in arizona, and based on the fact that compared to the other Qb's on the market he was perceived as the best by far out there, especially nationally. The national media was saying before he signed whoever gets plummer.....in sum picks up a great player. So the media wouldn't be against it. Some were, the far majority weren't. Plus when Levar Arrington can get the type of deal he got as a good but not GREAT lb, plummers ~5.75 million per year contract isn't that much. Plus with an out clause in the contract, it limits their liability if he does poorly.
On picking up his option
Shanahan has only seen plummer with an outstanding supporting cast, which realistically won't be around him every year for the rest of his contract. (Or at least on the same level) What plummer did today he'll do many times over if on a bad or mediocre team. Just like he did here. Since shanahan hasn't seen this side of him except for today, the preseason, and the first game of the regular season compared with his good numbers such as td/int ration and qb rating, of course he'll say that. But it might be a mistake. I'm not saying he won't overcome his problems with pressing, but this year he hasn't taken that step regardless of his good numbers. Once I say that I must also state that this doesn't mean he cannot win a superbowl, just imo its unlikely. But with his supporting cast he has a shot. He can do well when others do well or awesomely around him. You never know, maybe shanahan sees this and thinks that he is good enough.
The Broncos may or may not see Jake's shortcomings, but I do. Many on here do because we've watched him since about 1993 while at ASU. I don't claim to have special gnostic knowledge, I'm just going off of the college, cardinal, and now broncos career tendencies. I guarentee you many people on this board know Jake Plummer's game tendancies 100x better than Denver. Its just a fact of watching him for so long compared to what 11 games plus pre and postseason.
On the requirements
Well obviously if any QB has them they can do better with a great supporting cast compared to a poor one.
But the only time plummer plays well is when he has such a cast. Sure he played well in some games when he made his comebacks, but like I said earlier he was pressing. When the situation is that he is pressing, sometimes he does wonders because he makes that hard pass, but most of the time its an INT.
Sure he had some other good games, but I'd say the majority of his cardinal good games came as a result of a comeback, rather than playing well throughout the game and winning playing well. And retorically how much of that aspect was based more on his feet than arm? Other games he was purely mediocre. But he had that charisma over us as cards fans much like that of denver's fans now.
A good qb will have bad games, but will show throughout the season or career he can play well with what he has. Sometimes it is with bad or mediocre talent level and they still do good. Maybe not world beater great, but still good and respectable. Plummer never did that here. The first time he showed he could play good on a consistent basis, is when he played from a lead and did not have to press because they were ahead and could ring off 5 ypc from one of Denver's rb's thus keeping their defense off the field and chewing clock with the lead. He had nothing like that here.
Most of what we saw as his greatness was in his comeback ability. But even when he can do his greatness then, he is pressing and usually fails. For his ~14 comeback wins, he had more in which he played poorly and made the margin of defeat worse. When you are behind in most of 13 or so games a year there's going to be lots of pressing, and lots of opportunities for comeback wins.
About ELI
When it comes to ELI, I doubt it. Personally I am a huge supporter of the Cards drafting ELI. I would take ben, but prefer eli. ELI took over a bad college team and almost singlehandely turned around their program with lesser talent around him. Sound like something we need here?
Plummer had some good players on his ASU teams. Some were great college players, and marginal nfl players. But that generally means they have some talent.
The guys eli's had over his old miss years can't be compared even closely to those ASU guys. ELI raised his team's level BIGTIME, plummer who did awesome in college, did it with good or great college talent.
Plus coming out ELI I bet has better qb awareness than Plummer does now, if not, he's right with him. Plummer does check off some plays...now. But ELI does it with almost perfection IN COLLEGE. His awareness will make him able to compete and help raise his teams play from day 1 in the nfl IMO. That's why I WANT HIM BADLY ON THE CARDS.
On manning's playoff win
Manning never had the cast around him. His defenses were always the bottom of the league until dungy arrived. Edge has been injured off and on for years, and only had one thing going for him Marvin Harrison. Besides him a good Marcus Pollard or I think Ken Dilger were his 2nd best options. In other words Manning had less around him offensively every year before this, than plummer had here, sans the second half of 2002 season when the all the receivers went down. Edgerrin James is very talented but injured often. Plus I should add the past few years the Colts have also faced some of the best teams and d's being in the AFC. Plummer had the NFC east at its worst in a long time and a mediocre nfc west to play in.
Look at Manning vs. Jakes numbers. Its not even close. I don't get caught up with that never win a playoff game before type talk. It has merit, but is way overblown by the media. I'd take Manning in a heartbeat before today with NO questions asked. You see what he does in the regular season, he can do it in the playoffs. 3 or so seperate games two years apart are disected and lumped together like some sort of streak does not show a qb's playoff ability. I've seen Manning play awesome against some good defenses, and I know he isn't one of those guys who psyches himself out and cracks under pressure. So if those two aspects are correct, the playoff jinx imo is completely bogus. He was going to have a good one eventually. And he did. Now if you look at his playoff qb rating its probably around 100 (it was 158.3 today the best possible), and with 5 td's his td/int ration has probably evened out.
Peyton may have the same amount of playoff wins, but only peyton can add to that this year.
On jake being a difference maker
Jake was a difference maker for them, because even when I say they carried him, once they hoist plummer up on their shoulders, he would add to their level of play. But without being hoisted I believe he'd be the same mediocre player he was here. If he has everything around him, he'll succeed like others do with less.
When he was out, it was of my opinion the team didn't play as well in the other aspects of the team. The defense didn't play well, the special teams, and maybe even the ol and running game (although still pretty dang good). I just didn't see the broncos as fired up withou jake, and that no doubt hurt them if only a little. In this league, that little could be the difference. Also look at the QB's like ancient Beurlein, who started pretty well numbers wise before getting injured. Beurlein is a pretty good backup but thats what he is. Behind beulein were guys I wouldn't even hesitate to put behind McCown, parson, even a kent graham. I'm serious, Jarius Jackson is not a good qb. Danny Kanell, he was proven useless years ago. Couple those ideas with a fast and furious start by the broncos of like 5-0 or 6-0 and the odds were definitely in favor of the broncos losing. The chiefs were 11-0 but lost I think 3 of the next 5. The broncos at 5 or 6-0 without plummer should lose. It's just the odds. They might have lost those games with plummer. But like I said, I do think he was a difference maker for the Broncos.
On the....If almost anyone can thrive in the Shanahan system, then why did the back-ups only win 1 of 5 opportunities?
I didn't say the shanahan system per se. The talent they have from ol to rb to te to wr to 4th ranked defense this year should give their qb's a great chance at winning. But like I said, their backups besides beurlein aren't any good and shouldn't be on any nfl roster. Even with beurlein he was due for a step back with his age coupled with the fact he has come in and done so well as a backup in recent years.....He was due for some bad play before his injury. Then like I said before with the ebb and flows of winning so many straight you are bound to lose, and the fact that to me the team wasn't playing as hard during those games. They may say they did, but watching the games many of them did not play with the same intensity, even if the effort may have been there. Effort does not equal intensity. They are similar but are not the same.
On the P.S. if you're going to use that juvenile term "sucks" in your response... please don't bother
Respectfully you have the right to your own opinion regardless of what I think. But I was writing something, it was taking a while, and wanted to hurry up and finish it. Rather than think for another few seconds to find another word, everyone knows what "sucks" means slangwise. After watching plummer do just that for years it is also a means of common ground among us cards fans. It describes and alleviates some of the frustration albeit small which is still inside us when it comes to plummer, and using the word "suck" allows us to do it without offending people 99.99% of the time.
Plus "sucks" may be juvenile to you, and I don't know your age, but I would guess in the ~40+ crowd. Reason being, growing up in my generation the F bomb was the norm using the word "sucks" is quite a step up. I knew of and the meaning of the f word far before hearing about the "sucks" word and its connotation. So in a sense it's less juvenile to say "sucks" than f.
I mean we made fun of kids that only used words like suck. Look at the tv, parents, relaxation of social norms and stigmas, etc. That's where it is and where it's BEEN for years. I'm 25, so its been going on for quite some time. 20+ years already. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter to me, I can talk to anybody and not get offended by what they say structurally wise. It was always the meaning of what they said that was important to me, not the choice of words. I don't think it is in any way shape or form a sign or showing a lack of respect to me.
Also, we are on a cardinal posting board, not a graduate school application so slang words and such will be more of the rule rather than exception. Also, its rare for someone to bash the word "suck" when the words most people get turned off by end with a uck but start with an f or something to that effect. So imo it seems kinda silly to bash someone for using the word "suck", along the same lines as bashing someone for misspelling a word.
But I don't take any offense or anything like that. You have the right to your own opinions, your own level of properness, etc. I guess any kind of trying to broaden ones thought processes should be ok, but going that route can incite others and those thoughts are better left to oneself if one doesn't want to be bashed by others. Because if you haven't that response yet, those types of comments will incite others. Sorry for the length of the post.....Go CARDS!!!!
