Butler Denied Permission, Horton Expected to be Next DC

[Rats]

Again, you are speculating as I admitted to doing so just to play along with your charade.

Yeah sure, It was a simple question that no one has an answer for except to ply a highly unlikely scenario. We were refused. Get real. We put pressure to get Butler and the Steelers countered by offering him more money and a promise to be the next DC for Pitt. We could have secured Horton then instead of Davis if he was such a sought after guy for us implementing the Lebeau D here. He may end up being good but we would be much farther along installing the Lebeau D had we secured him before going with the Debacle that was Billy Davis.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Just to expand on your point even more. They were 12th in the NFL in passing yards given up. That is pretty good. But it is actually pretty great when you find out they got to 12th even though teams passed on them 37 times a game 4th most passed on team in the NFL. 3rd fewest TD's given. 2nd fewest big plays given up (20+ and 40+ yard pass plays). 2nd lowest QB rating given up. 3rd fewest 1st downs given up.

.

thx shmo, this gives me a LOT more confidence in horton. just imagine if our secondary could do that . . . wow.

 

[kerouac9]

c'mon k9, if that organization truly "did not like" them neither of them would have been interviewed for the HC vacancy before tomlin was hired. they didn't need to do it for PR purposes. that comment is just silly, and in my opinion WHOLELY misguided, speculation.

Are you sure? The Steelers had a really long evaluation process for head coaching candidates. I think that Grimm was under contract with the team as an Assistant Head Coach at the time. But the Steelers went outside the organization (which had won a Super Bowl the year before) and made little effort to retain two of their three highest-profile coaches.

Again, if the Steelers had respect for Whis as a coach, why wouldn't they extend a really common courtesy to him to give one of their coaches a promotion? They didn't block Butler from interviewing with Miami last year; they let him go down and then upgraded his contract.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...ackers-coach-defensive-coordinator-s-position

Ben's gone on record not liking Whis. The Steelers aren't extending him a professional courtesy. Something was rotten in the state of Pennsylvania.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think alot of what got them that 12th ranking had to do with their passrush and not their DB's. Anyway, we will find out just how good this guy is at the end of this season. Anyone think we will have a top ten defense because we hired Horton?

you're not asking for much. just a leap from 29th to top 10. let's completely ignore the fact that this team still has no LBs, no passrush, and is still seeking an adequate corner. oh, and much of the players on whom the defense relies are still young (DRC, dan williams, washington, OB, etc.). let's have more realistic expectations. i'd like to see them move from 29th to say 14th - 18th. gotta learn to walk before you can run.

 

[kerouac9]

you're not asking for much. just a leap from 29th to top 10. let's completely ignore the fact that this team still has no LBs, no passrush, and is still seeking an adequate corner. oh, and much of the players on whom the defense relies are still young (DRC, dan williams, washington, OB, etc.). let's have more realistic expectations. i'd like to see them move from 29th to say 14th - 18th. gotta learn to walk before you can run.

For sure. You have to walk before you can run. I know that people want to find a QB who can win the 2012 Super Bowl, but we were 5-11 last year, and we're going to lose 3-5 more players from the 2009 Super Bowl team this offseason.

We have to get back to at least league adequacy, then worry about performing in the playoffs. Thankfully, unless Sam Bradford makes a quantum leap in Year 2, league adequacy may mean winning the division by early December.

If there's football.

 

[Renz]

Are you sure? The Steelers had a really long evaluation process for head coaching candidates. I think that Grimm was under contract with the team as an Assistant Head Coach at the time. But the Steelers went outside the organization (which had won a Super Bowl the year before) and made little effort to retain two of their three highest-profile coaches.

Again, if the Steelers had respect for Whis as a coach, why wouldn't they extend a really common courtesy to him to give one of their coaches a promotion? They didn't block Butler from interviewing with Miami last year; they let him go down and then upgraded his contract.

Pretty sure Butler wasn't under contract when he interviewed at Miami. Pitt. couldn't stop him from interviewing there.

 

[Southpaw]

Are you sure? The Steelers had a really long evaluation process for head coaching candidates. I think that Grimm was under contract with the team as an Assistant Head Coach at the time. But the Steelers went outside the organization (which had won a Super Bowl the year before) and made little effort to retain two of their three highest-profile coaches.

Again, if the Steelers had respect for Whis as a coach, why wouldn't they extend a really common courtesy to him to give one of their coaches a promotion? They didn't block Butler from interviewing with Miami last year; they let him go down and then upgraded his contract.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...ackers-coach-defensive-coordinator-s-position

Ben's gone on record not liking Whis. The Steelers aren't extending him a professional courtesy. Something was rotten in the state of Pennsylvania.

The Steelers would have come off as extremely hypocritical ( Rooney rule ) if they had hired Whis or Grimm when Cowher quit.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am not. I asked a legit question. Why was Horton not picked after Clancy got canned and Butler was not hired? Answer that.

hasn't horton only been DB coach for 3 years? if so, then when we canned clancy he would have only been DB coach for 1 year at that point. do you know how you would've crucified whiz for making a 1 year DB coach our DC? i shudder to think of it . . .

 

[Totally_Red]

hasn't horton only been DB coach for 3 years? if so, then when we canned clancy he would have only been DB coach for 1 year at that point. do you know how you would've crucified whiz for making a 1 year DB coach our DC? i shudder to think of it . . .

Was going to say the same thing. Horton likely wasn't ready for the DC role when Whis hired Davis. We all know he really wanted Butler, but it seemed Butler was pretty ambivalent at the time.

I'm not doing cartwheels about the hire, but Whis has to know this is an extremely critical hire for him. He simply has to get the Cardinal defense into a half-way respectable unit. He doesn't have Kurt, Q, and Fitz and the top-5 passing offense anymore.

The "D" will have to carry their water going forward. Outside of QB I expect the draft and FA to focus on upgrading the defense and wouldn't be at all surprised if Peterson or a rush LB is the pick at #5 overall.

 

[ajcardfan]

The Steelers would have come off as extremely hypocritical ( Rooney rule ) if they had hired Whis or Grimm when Cowher quit.

Of course there is the possibility that they liked both Whis and Grimm but just liked Tomlin more after the interviews. But, that's not as fun to think about I guess. It's much more fun to think the Rooneys secretly thought they sucked.

 

[Rats]

hasn't horton only been DB coach for 3 years? if so, then when we canned clancy he would have only been DB coach for 1 year at that point. do you know how you would've crucified whiz for making a 1 year DB coach our DC? i shudder to think of it . . .

He was Db coach for the Lions for 2 years and has been the DB coach since Tomlin took over 4 seasons ago as well as an assistant DB coach for several years in Pitt. So he would have had 4 total years as DB coach when we offered Butler the job but your point is well taken. I would have critisized him then as a second best choice as well even though today we would be farther along in a Zone scheme defense so we would be in better position IMO. Butler was offered after Clancy was fired but Clancy was here a couple of seasons under Whiz.

 

[TJ]

Ben's gone on record not liking Whis. The Steelers aren't extending him a professional courtesy. Something was rotten in the state of Pennsylvania.

Sure. But given Ben's "incredible" off the field behavior, who would you side with in that relationship? Or who would you believe the most in a dispute.

The whole "Ben hated Whiz" thing is blown completely out of proportion. Hines Ward has thrown Ben under the bus many times during interviews. I think Whiz had a realistic reason for disliking Ben's behavior

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Sure. But given Ben's "incredible" off the field behavior, who would you side with in that relationship? Or who would you believe the most in a dispute.

The whole "Ben hated Whiz" thing is blown completely out of proportion. Hines Ward has thrown Ben under the bus many times during interviews. I think Whiz had a realistic reason for disliking Ben's behavior

.... and during the most recent investigation, the Commissioner reports, that not one of his teammates came to his defence.

 

[azsportsfan01]

I think alot of what got them that 12th ranking had to do with their passrush and not their DB's. Anyway, we will find out just how good this guy is at the end of this season. Anyone think we will have a top ten defense because we hired Horton?

Let's have a little history lesson, shall we? The two guys you seem to love that were available are Jeff Fisher and Wade Phillips, right? So lets take a look at their history.

Wade Phillis had been a coach in the NFL for 4 whole years before he got his first gig as a DC. He took of the Saints defense back in 1981 and their defense was 24th that season. In 1980 the Saints were 28th in defense.

Jeff Fisher was a coach in the NFL for 3 years before his first DC job when he took over the Eagles in 1988. He had better luck taking them up to 14th from the 25th ranked defense.

Ray Horton has been an NFL coach for 16 years but you're right, I want to get a guy who has very little coaching experience who we will all know in 20 years as a big name.

 

[wa52lz]

Of course there is the possibility that they liked both Whis and Grimm but just liked Tomlin more after the interviews. But, that's not as fun to think about I guess. It's much more fun to think the Rooneys secretly thought they sucked.

Come on now!!! How dare you offer such crazy speculation!

 

[wa52lz]

.... and during the most recent investigation, the Commissioner reports, that not one of his teammates came to his defence.

You need to go back and read Peter Kings correction, it wasnt teamates the commissioner spoke to, it was other players. Peter King "misquoted" him. More like he wanted to make sure he was the center of attention for a few days during Super Bowl week, so he writes so lame story in hopes it will be the big buzz.

 

[wa52lz]

Let's have a little history lesson, shall we? The two guys you seem to love that were available are Jeff Fisher and Wade Phillips, right? So lets take a look at their history.

Wade Phillis had been a coach in the NFL for 4 whole years before he got his first gig as a DC. He took of the Saints defense back in 1981 and their defense was 24th that season. In 1980 the Saints were 28th in defense.

Jeff Fisher was a coach in the NFL for 3 years before his first DC job when he took over the Eagles in 1988. He had better luck taking them up to 14th from the 25th ranked defense.

Ray Horton has been an NFL coach for 16 years but you're right, I want to get a guy who has very little coaching experience who we will all know in 20 years as a big name.

Not to mention the fact that Wade got his first NFL job and DC position from dear old dad, Bum.

 

[SuperSpck]

hasn't horton only been DB coach for 3 years? if so, then when we canned clancy he would have only been DB coach for 1 year at that point. do you know how you would've crucified whiz for making a 1 year DB coach our DC? i shudder to think of it . . .

He's been coaching DBs in a lead capacity for 3 yes, total time as a DB coach 16.

You've lost me at the Clancy reference.
He'd been a QC/LBer coach up until he got promoted to coordinator, 95-03.
He spent one year as DB/D-coord with the Chiefs.

There are a ton of question marks here, can a DB coach effectively lead a 3-4 when most of those guys come from LBer coaching?

Regardless, I think time in service is a secondary characteristic.

 

[joeshmo]

He's been coaching DBs in a lead capacity for 3 yes, total time as a DB coach 16.

You've lost me at the Clancy reference.
He'd been a QC/LBer coach up until he got promoted to coordinator, 95-03.
He spent one year as DB/D-coord with the Chiefs.

There are a ton of question marks here, can a DB coach effectively lead a 3-4 when most of those guys come from LBer coaching?

Regardless, I think time in service is a secondary characteristic.

Actually Horton has been a lead DB coach for 7 total years. 4 with Cincy, 3 with Pitt. All under Lebeau.

 

[SuperSpck]

Actually Horton has been a lead DB coach for 7 total years. 4 with Cincy, 3 with Pitt. All under Lebeau.

Thanks for the clarification Joe!

 

[Duckjake]

He's been coaching DBs in a lead capacity for 3 yes, total time as a DB coach 16.

You've lost me at the Clancy reference.
He'd been a QC/LBer coach up until he got promoted to coordinator, 95-03.
He spent one year as DB/D-coord with the Chiefs.

There are a ton of question marks here, can a DB coach effectively lead a 3-4 when most of those guys come from LBer coaching?

Regardless, I think time in service is a secondary characteristic.

McGinnis was a LB coach. Clancy was a LB coach. Davis was a LB coach.

Maybe its time to try something different.

Oh wait, Larry Marmie was our DB coach when McGinnis promoted him to DC.

 

[187]

He's been coaching DBs in a lead capacity for 3 yes, total time as a DB coach 16.

You've lost me at the Clancy reference.
He'd been a QC/LBer coach up until he got promoted to coordinator, 95-03.
He spent one year as DB/D-coord with the Chiefs.

There are a ton of question marks here, can a DB coach effectively lead a 3-4 when most of those guys come from LBer coaching?

Regardless, I think time in service is a secondary characteristic.

Dick LeBeau and Dom Capers didn't seem to have many problems doing just that.

 

[SuperSpck]

Dick LeBeau and Dom Capers didn't seem to have many problems doing just that.

Good.
But aren't they the two who created the specialized concept the team is working with and haven't they been utilizing it for decades?
I'm not arguing, I hope this works and I'm confident it can, but are there other examples?