Butler Denied Permission, Horton Expected to be Next DC

[ARodg]

Defensive Coordinator is about 2 things: Scheme and Player Development, and player development probably falls more under position coaches.

A branch of both the Cowher and Lebeau tree, I don't think there's much you can whine about in terms of scheme. I know that's not exxactly the best logic considering the Cards obsession with Steelers coaches and their track record but it makes sense in theory.

Player Development: Who the hell knows?

 

[lobo]

For anyone that missed it, here is the interview of Ray Horton on Bickley & MJ.

http://archive.xtra910.com

He's a well spoken guy who describes himself as "a duck on the water. Everything looks calm and peaceful on the surface, but underneath you're paddling like hell." Seems his idea of a defense is pressure and turnovers. Seems to have a "we'll hit you mentality". Says he is very involved with game planning. I like him.

You're post are good....I rarely post but do enjoy a 10 minute read a day...fan of team since 1958 so I have seen a whole lot...this thread is a classic...sounds like a whole bunch of us are flies on the wall at a whole bunch of meetings so we all know who was choice 1,2,3, etc. etc.

I happen to know a person or so outside the organization and the word on the street is the guy has real talent...sp we will see.

 

[lobo]

For anyone that missed it, here is the interview of Ray Horton on Bickley & MJ.

http://archive.xtra910.com

He's a well spoken guy who describes himself as "a duck on the water. Everything looks calm and peaceful on the surface, but underneath you're paddling like hell." Seems his idea of a defense is pressure and turnovers. Seems to have a "we'll hit you mentality". Says he is very involved with game planning. I like him.

You're post are good....I rarely post but do enjoy a 10 minute read a day...fan of team since 1958 so I have seen a whole lot...this thread is a classic...sounds like a whole bunch of us are flies on the wall at a whole bunch of meetings so we all know who was choice 1,2,3, etc. etc.

I happen to know a person or so outside the organization and the word on the street is the guy has real talent...so we will see.

 

[Chopper0080]

I am wondering why people are complaining about this...

He was a player in the league for 10 years
He played in a Super Bowl
He has been a coach in the league for 16 years
He has coached on a Super Bowl winning squad

That is a ton of credibility right there

He has overseen a top 15 ranked defensive secondary that was behind a top run defense.

He did this with Ike Taylor, Bryant McFadden, and William Gay as his top 3 corners.

The guy has been handed garbage, and turned out a pretty solid product.

Moreover, secondary coaches generally turn out to be really good defensive coordinators because the entire game is in front of them. They understand coverage schemes, but also understand the importance of pressure on the QB and how it effects defensive backs. The guy has spent 20 years learning from a legendary coach, and even better he has taken the same path as LeBeau did from secondary player, to position coach, and now to defensive coordinator.

Also keep in mind that coverage is the key to the zone-blitz scheme. Bill Davis got into trouble because he didn't understand how to cover the holes that the blitz created. Horton should excel at this

 

[BullheadCardFan]

The biggest question should be: can he teach these guys how to tackle?

GB and the Steelers with their open field tackling skills make their defenses strong.

 

[TopGun]

For anyone that missed it, here is the interview of Ray Horton on Bickley & MJ.

http://archive.xtra910.com

He's a well spoken guy who describes himself as "a duck on the water. Everything looks calm and peaceful on the surface, but underneath you're paddling like hell." Seems his idea of a defense is pressure and turnovers. Seems to have a "we'll hit you mentality". Says he is very involved with game planning. I like him.

Thanks for the share Hypothesis, because I really enjoyed listening to it. You were pretty dead on about your description of Horton.

So count me in on liking what I heard also.

 

[O]

He was a player in the league for 10 years
He played in a Super Bowl
He has been a coach in the league for 16 years
He has coached on a Super Bowl winning squad

That is a ton of credibility right there

He played in two Super Bowls, losing with the Bengals and winning with the, ugh, Cowboys.
Dick LaBeau was his posttion coach when he was with the Bengals.
Two Super Bowls as a coach, a win and a loss.

 

[ARodg]

Packers and Steelers take a little bit different approaches to getting to the QB.

Packers rely more on their secondary to make QBs hold on to the ball for longer. This allows a pass rush that hides the weaker LBs like Zombo and Hawk. When the Packers get there it also makes QBs throw into coverage. Pack I think but I'm too lazy to check lead the league in INTs with I think 32.

Steelers on the other hand rely on their amazing front seven to get to the QB very quickly to cover for their weaker CBs.

Both approaches have proven to be effective the problem that Horton is going to have is that he lacks the personel to go with either approach. OB is still an unproven commodity and there isn't another pass rusher. Similarly DRC has flashed potential but there really isn't another CB that can be relied on.

Personel is going to be the biggest issue that Horton has IMO and if the Cards don't trade back to give him more picks to fill numerous holes they are doing him a disservice and setting him up to fail. Go the Packers approach. Get your new DC two first rounders to fill the holes that need to be filled.

 

[Chopper0080]

If I am Horton, I try and convince Kevin Greene to be the Cardinals LB coach, which would be a bump up from just coaching the OLB's like he does in Green Bay.

 

[TopGun]

This pretty well summed up our whole day for us Cardinals fans!!

Ray Horton Back In, Is Favorite For Cardinals DC Job

Feb 08 5:12p by Jess Root

As Tuesday afternoon went by, a flurry of tweets had everyone following the Arizona Cardinals coaching situation confused and intrigued. This was a stark change from the previous month, which was more or less nothing but speculation. The Steelers and the Packers are mentioned. But it appears that now things have calmed that there is a clear favorite -- Ray Horton.

The day went like this:

First, the Cardinals asked the Packers and the Steelers permission to speak with Winston Moss and Keith Butler.

Next, Ray Horton was said to be coming to the Valley.

Then, despite nothing officially from the teams, we heard that Horton was going to be the guy and that the Steelers denied permission to interview Butler, despite previous reports saying they would likely not block Arizona.

Soon after that was reported that Horton was headed to Dallas to take the same job he has as defensive backs coach for the Cowboys.

Not long afterwards it is confirmed that Butler was blocked and the report that Horton was taking the job in Dallas was clarified to say that he had an offer in Dallas and an offer here to be DC of the Cardinals.

What we are pretty sure of now is that Horton is going to be in the Valley tomorrow and that he will likely be the new defensive coordinator.

As for why he has a job offer even before a real interview? Ken Whisenhunt coached three years with him in Pittsburgh. He runs the Dick LeBeau defensive schemes and although he has not been a DC before, he has coached in the NFL for ten years.

If this indeed is what occurs, it is yet another cog in the Cardinals machine that comes from the Pittsburgh pipeline. While many may be growing tired of this (myself included, to some extent), this hire is definitely one that makes sense. Horton is a coordinator from a system that was the number two defense in the NFL and has been to the Super Bowl twice in the past three seasons. It is hard to say that Horton is a bad choice.

We will know soon enough and then we will have to find something else to discuss, like quarterbacks and draftees and the CBA.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Fug the Steelers and their serial rapist QB.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

another thing to like about Horton is that Pitt DB's always seem to be pretty good tacklers.

 

[Duckjake]

I am wondering why people are complaining about this...

He played in two Super Bowls, losing with the Bengals and winning with the, ugh, Cowboys.
Dick LaBeau was his posttion coach when he was with the Bengals.
Two Super Bowls as a coach, a win and a loss.

There's your answer.

 

[Dayman]

After Grimm, Porter, McFadden, etc, I think some of us are a little leery about any former Steeler coming to AZ. And rightfully so. Butler seemed to be ok with most, but I assume that's because we've heard his praises since Whis got here.

However, I believe we should take a wait and see approach on Horton. He isn't Billy Davis part 2. Billy Davis was an established failure as a coordinator. His weaknesses are even on his Wikipedia page (You would think he would go in and change some of the quotes on his page, but, as we all know, Billy Davis is incapable of making adjustments).

Horton, on the other hand, is a relatively unknown commodity with excellent coaching blood lines. Plus, he still hasn't accepted the job. There's a chance we could be talking about the pros and cons of Winston Moos as our coordinator at this time tomorrow.

 

[juza76]

a comment from a steelers fan :
''Still crazy to me how AZ keeps grabbing Steelers. Must speak volume to Whiz's lack of influence among all of the NFL. Seems like if he can't hire a Pittsburgh guy, he gets nothing.''

 

[ARodg]

I want this thread to get to 100 pages and then have him sign with Dallas.

 

[az jam]

For anyone that missed it, here is the interview of Ray Horton on Bickley & MJ.

http://archive.xtra910.com

He's a well spoken guy who describes himself as "a duck on the water. Everything looks calm and peaceful on the surface, but underneath you're paddling like hell." Seems his idea of a defense is pressure and turnovers. Seems to have a "we'll hit you mentality". Says he is very involved with game planning. I like him.

Thanks for posting the interview. It was very informative. He appears smart and articulate and wants the job. i think he will do well.

 

[juza76]

anyway steelers fan are happy if arizona hire him..the same reaction of a cardinals fans if russ grimm get a head coach job

 

[NJCardFan]

And if Horton ends up in Dallas, then what? All that waiting while good quality coaches were being scarfed up was for nothing. You know, when we won the NFC Championship, I was so happy that the stigma of the same old Cards was finally laid to rest but sadly, we are heading right back into that direction. But note to Whiz, there are 30 other teams out there other than Pittsburgh.

 

[Hypothesis]

And if Horton ends up in Dallas, then what? All that waiting while good quality coaches were being scarfed up was for nothing. You know, when we won the NFC Championship, I was so happy that the stigma of the same old Cards was finally laid to rest but sadly, we are heading right back into that direction. But note to Whiz, there are 30 other teams out there other than Pittsburgh.

I could be wrong and Horton could end up elsewhere, but I doubt it. Horton is scheduled to take a 7:00 am flight to Phoenix tomorrow, and isn't scheduled to leave until Friday night. Three days is a long stay for just an "interview". Of course he could just be here for the weather and some golfing with his pal Ken Whisenhunt.

 

[Shzm13]

a comment from a steelers fan :
''Still crazy to me how AZ keeps grabbing Steelers. Must speak volume to Whiz's lack of influence among all of the NFL. Seems like if he can't hire a Pittsburgh guy, he gets nothing.''

Hired Haley from the Cowboys, who went on to become a head coach, something no one from the Cowher era has done, other than Whiz

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Do the posters who are saying "well I have never heard of him, so he must not be good" realize how ignorant they sound? I mean can u come up with a better argument then that?

When evaluating the prospects of a DC with no experience in that role, you should look at player development and who they coached under. While Perry intrigues me because of his coaching job this year, Horton coached Polamalu to great success and his boss was Dick Lebeau so in terms of pedigree and results, not sure how this can be seen as a bad hire. Let's face it - all the viable former DC's who ran 3-4 took better jobs (like Manusky K9 and Ryan as well) and just because you have been a DC before isn't always a positive. In fact IIRC that was the common rejoinder heard when Billy Davis was hired "hey he's been a DC before!". No thanks. Let's take the up and comer ready to get out of his teachers shadow.

While Wiz likely preferred Butler because of their ties, Horton is just as established and crednetialed. Ill play wait and see before a final opinion but as of now I can't fault the thought process and the fact that Wiz went to him so quick tells me he wasn't your average choice 2. More like choice 1 B otherwise I think this would have been more drawn out and deflating when Butler was no longer an option.

Two more points: Man I hate the Steelers. Unequivically my most hated team at this point. Its not rational, they just have been absolute thorn in our side over past 3 years. Also Butlers son seemed very disappointed in that tweet, I am guessing echoing his dads sentiments. Steeler are such clowns.

 

[ARodg]

Do the posters who are saying "well I have never heard of him, so he must not be good" realize how ignorant they sound? I mean can u come up with a better argument then that?

When evaluating the prospects of a DC with no experience in that role, you should look at player development and who they coached under. While Perry intrigues me because of his coaching job this year, Horton coached Polamalu to great success and his boss was Dick Lebeau so in terms of pedigree and results, not sure how this can be seen as a bad hire. Let's face it - all the viable former DC's who ran 3-4 took better jobs (like Manusky K9 and Ryan as well) and just because you have been a DC before isn't always a positive. In fact IIRC that was the common rejoinder heard when Billy Davis was hired "hey he's been a DC before!". No thanks. Let's take the up and comer ready to get out of his teachers shadow.

No thanks. While Wiz likely preferred Butler because of their ties, Horton is just as established and crednetialed. Ill play wait and see before a final opinion but as of now I can't fault the thought process and the fact that Wiz went to him so quick tells me he wasn't your average choice 2. More like choice 1 B otherwise I think this would have been more drawn out and deflating when Butler was no longer an option.

Two more points: Man I hate the Steelers. Unequivically my most hated team at this point. Its not rational, they just have been absolute thorn in our side over past 3 years. Also Butlers son seemed very disappointed in that tweet, I am guessing echoing his dads sentiments. Steeler are such clowns.

Agree with all of this except switch Steelers to Vikings in the last paragraph.

 

[Hypothesis]

Do the posters who are saying "well I have never heard of him, so he must not be good" realize how ignorant they sound? I mean can u come up with a better argument then that?

When evaluating the prospects of a DC with no experience in that role, you should look at player development and who they coached under. While Perry intrigues me because of his coaching job this year, Horton coached Polamalu to great success and his boss was Dick Lebeau so in terms of pedigree and results, not sure how this can be seen as a bad hire. Let's face it - all the viable former DC's who ran 3-4 took better jobs (like Manusky K9 and Ryan as well) and just because you have been a DC before isn't always a positive. In fact IIRC that was the common rejoinder heard when Billy Davis was hired "hey he's been a DC before!". No thanks. Let's take the up and comer ready to get out of his teachers shadow.

While Wiz likely preferred Butler because of their ties, Horton is just as established and crednetialed. Ill play wait and see before a final opinion but as of now I can't fault the thought process and the fact that Wiz went to him so quick tells me he wasn't your average choice 2. More like choice 1 B otherwise I think this would have been more drawn out and deflating when Butler was no longer an option.

Two more points: Man I hate the Steelers. Unequivically my most hated team at this point. Its not rational, they just have been absolute thorn in our side over past 3 years. Also Butlers son seemed very disappointed in that tweet, I am guessing echoing his dads sentiments. Steeler are such clowns.

Love this post!

 

[schutd]

So trying hard and failing is better than succeeding to a lesser extent? I'm sure that Max Hall will be happy that's your position.

The Cards are now stuck with Ray Horton (apparently), who will have little credibility in the locker room because he's clearly not the coaching staff's first choice (or even perhaps second). Horton will be on a short leash for whenever Keith Butler actually becomes available again (as Bill Davis was).

Having a plan and failing to execute it? Isn't that why we went through three quarterbacks this season?

Or its just part of the game, happens to EVERY team, EVERY year, but you have a myopic fans view of things and read more into this than you should leading to the same ole cards mentality you seem to thrive with.

Hope its fun to live like that.