Buyout Candidates

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Dude is lost 1/2 the time he is on the floor, fades away from contact for a sorry amount of FTs. He gets abused by below avg centers on the regular. He is NOT a top tier center, or he would have had restricted offers and or been appealing fro trades to others which he was not. #1 pick means squat 5 years later

And he’s still the best center the suns have ever had.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Quill

Ayton gives Jokic probably the toughest assignment among the centers as Ayton is quite agile and fluid and Jokic has said as much. I'd take Ayton above Bam because Bam probably closer to reaching his ceiling and he has far more freedom on the court than Ayton. Ayton has not reach his prime but with Durant coming here Ayton finally will have a prime time front court mate on the floor with him and not a bunch of 6-5 or 6-6 wings who get 4 rebounds without any bulk. Course Durant is slim but long and will get 7 or 8 boards and is almost unstoppable on offense. While Embid & Jokic are ahead of Ayton but I'd take Ayton over Gobert, Bam, and Sabonis. Without a doubt Ayton outplayed Sabonis head to head in that last game. Sabonis couldn't contain Ayton. Sabonis is a better passer however. Monty sometimes I think plays Ayton too limited and also with his playing time 28-30 minutes. Ayton is young he can last longer than that.

The jokic thing really doesn’t hold much water anymore. That we an early career outlier for Ayton.

20-21: 26/14/8 to 11/10/2 (Ayton abused)

21-22: 28/10/4 to 21/9/3 (closer but 7pt gap)

22-23: 31/17/12 to 23/16/6 (8pt and 6 assist gap)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

60

???

 

[Sparky16]

And he’s still the best center the suns have ever had.

Means nothing in todays game when players like Draymond Green are playing the position. Also Amare played the 5 and he is 10X the player, Even Alvin Adams was probably a better 5, def smarter

 

[Proximo]

Means nothing in todays game when players like Draymond Green are playing the position. Also Amare played the 5 and he is 10X the player, Even Alvin Adams was probably a better 5, def smarter

I mean I liked Amare, but saying he is 10X the player is just Ridiculous.

He might have been 1.5 X the player in his best 2 years, but even that might be stretching it. Ayton is still only 24 and his best years are ahead of him.

I understand everyone's frustration with Ayton, because I have it too, but when he plays up to his capabilities, he is quite good.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Jonas V kills him IIRC. Tough rugged active rebounders always seems to drive us crazy. Capella isn't so tough, buy boy does he stay active.

I still prefer Amare to DA but that may be my personal preference of what I like at the position. Regardless..... DA can win us a title if he locks down on defense and stays efficient on offense. If he pouts about not getting the ball and slacks on defense we wont win anything IMO.

It's really difficult/frustrating to have your fortunes tied so closely to this mercurial of a player.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

And he’s not as good as Bam or Sabonis.

Sabonis, lol.

 

[Mainstreet]

So who is left in the potential buyout market for the Suns?

Perhaps John Wall, Wiil Barton or an off the radar point guard.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Means nothing in todays game when players like Draymond Green are playing the position. Also Amare played the 5 and he is 10X the player, Even Alvin Adams was probably a better 5, def smarter

Amare was an atrocious defender and undersized against true centers. He was really a PF playing up a position.

And bless adams heart, he was virtually a small forward playing up two positions. He produced as best he could being placed in an unwinnable situation. Also couldn’t defend worth a lick.

As far as true centers, Ayton is the best we’ve had.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sabonis, lol.

Are we really laughing here because Ayton played better than him in their last game?

Because even though Ayton has been on a better much team the majority of their careers, Sabonis is 4-5 against him, while handily outplaying Ayton in head to head stats:

Games Played Between Deandre Ayton and Domantas Sabonis

This is the detail of NBA games in which Deandre Ayton and Domantas Sabonis played against each other, including head-to-head record, stats average, game highs and game-by-game data both in the Regular Season and Playoffs.

www.landofbasketball.com

Sabonis 20/13.6/5.6 assistsv. Ayton’s 16.6/11.7/1.5

Ayton at his peak is better, but Ayton’s peak just doesn’t poke it’s head up enough to overcome Sabonis’ consistency and ability to create not only for himself, but for others as well.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Amare was an atrocious defender and undersized against true centers. He was really a PF playing up a position.

And bless adams heart, he was virtually a small forward playing up two positions. He produced as best he could being placed in an unwinnable situation. Also couldn’t defend worth a lick.

As far as true centers, Ayton is the best we’ve had.

Alvan was a fairly solid defender his first 5 or so years in the league but the nightly task of defending players that were far bigger than him wore him down. He still played another 5 or 6 years afterwards where his defense was really lacking but I'd blame that on never successfully finding that bruiser to play next to him.

But I agree, Ayton is the best center we've ever had. Amare was so exciting that we often overlooked the negatives about his game, DA is so frustrating that at times it's easy for us to only see the negatives.

 

[overseascardfan]

So who is left in the potential buyout market for the Suns?

Perhaps John Wall, Wiil Barton or an off the radar point guard.

I'm not sure if there is a buyout deadline but those guys seem to be it. There was speculation Nerlens Noel could be a candidate but neither he or DET has begun talks about a buyout.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Are we really laughing here because Ayton played better than him in their last game?

Ha, no my friend...it's much more than one game.

Because even though Ayton has been on a better much team the majority of their careers, Sabonis is 4-5 against him, while handily outplaying Ayton in head to head stats:

Games Played Between Deandre Ayton and Domantas Sabonis

This is the detail of NBA games in which Deandre Ayton and Domantas Sabonis played against each other, including head-to-head record, stats average, game highs and game-by-game data both in the Regular Season and Playoffs.

www.landofbasketball.com

Sabonis 20/13.6/5.6 assistsv. Ayton’s 16.6/11.7/1.5

You mean outplaying him in terms of offensive stats. Painting half the picture certainly does make Sabonis seem like the superior option.

Ayton at his peak is better, but Ayton’s peak just doesn’t poke it’s head up enough to overcome Sabonis’ consistency and ability to create not only for himself, but for others as well.

Sabonis is the definition of a good but not great player that will cost a lot, but never win anything. He's the spiritual successor to Vucevic. Guys that put up big #'s, but are not impactful.

His teams have never done anything, and at some point, you can't blame all the other players all the time. Good teams take Ayton over Sabonis every time.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not sure if there is a buyout deadline but those guys seem to be it. There was speculation Nerlens Noel could be a candidate but neither he or DET has begun talks about a buyout.

It's slim pickings unless a team out of the playoff race decides to save some money or a team has to cut a player to make room for a buyout or a late addition.

 

[PHI PHX PHAN]

I’m sorry, isn’t an accurate statement.

I agree that preferred trading bridges to Ayton as Ayton is more difficult to replace. But he does not equal or exceed the production of top tier big men “more often than not.”

He routinely gets beaten by embiid
He routinely gets beaten by giannis
He has early success against jokic, but gets beat pretty soundly by him now.
Capella tends to outplay him abd I don’t consider capella “top tier.”
I believe he holds his own against KAT
I’m guessing Bam is a wash, but that one doesn’t stand out to me.
He is better/wash with sabonis, but sabonis is a tier below most of the “top tier.”

He’s better than Gobert, but I don’t consider him a too big anymore. And porzingas is just a giant wing.

Allen, woods, and Vucevic are good, but far from “top tier.”

And then we have to determine how we define “big.” If it includes Davis when healthy, no. Zion when healthy, no.

It’s okay to say Ayton is important to this team and admit he’s not on the level of the top bigs in the league.

I mean...if you have to use 3 mvp candidate players (2 of which are multi MVP winners) as the initial metric then it sorta speaks to my point lol.
If the next tier down is KAT, Bam, Sabonis, Davis types then I think that's great company to be in.
I would describe that tier as "top" and the one above that as "elite".
Giannis and AD aren't centers so I wouldn't use them as comparisons in this regard.
Capella is a specialist type center like Gobert where they kinda have the luxury of not being asked to do much outside of control the paint.
Ayton gets the most criticism and least benefit of his peer group on this forum it seems.
Saying that roughly 3 names outside of the elite give him an occasional fit isn't a crazy indictment against him when they're probably raising their games in that match-up with him.
But every player has guys who aren't on their particular level that have good games against them.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Is anyone else happy Russ is going to the Clippers? If this cuts T. Mann's playing time by a few minutes each game, I am all for it.

 

[Muggz]

Replace Ayton with someone better that we can get right now.
I'll wait.
Next season is another story. If he shows up for the playoffs his value goes up or maybe we keep him.

 

[Mainstreet]

Is anyone else happy Russ is going to the Clippers? If this cuts T. Mann's playing time by a few minutes each game, I am all for it.

It's a good point. Terance Mann has played well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ha, no my friend...it's much more than one game.

You mean outplaying him in terms of offensive stats. Painting half the picture certainly does make Sabonis seem like the superior option.

Sabonis is the definition of a good but not great player that will cost a lot, but never win anything. He's the spiritual successor to Vucevic. Guys that put up big #'s, but are not impactful.

His teams have never done anything, and at some point, you can't blame all the other players all the time. Good teams take Ayton over Sabonis every time.

The argument can easily be made that Ayton is the exact equal of the Vucevic’s of the world. Or were you in a coma when we were PATHETIC going 5-17 without Book when Ayton was putting up his usual 18/11? Or did you miss the 21-5 record over the last couple years when Ayton hasn’t played?

Reality is Sabonis is the VASTLY superior offensive player. Definitely worse defensively than Ayton when Ayton is actually motivated. Only problem there is Ayton is only motivated probably 60% of the time. And even straight up, he’s still a better rebounder than Ayton.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The argument can easily be made that Ayton is the exact equal of the Vucevic’s of the world.

As we see here everyday, people can easily make many bad arguments. Ayton = Vucevic is one of them.

Or were you in a coma when we were PATHETIC going 5-17 without Book when Ayton was putting up his usual 18/11?

Seems like you're missing some color to this one as well...maybe you forget the lineups that were out there? It's not like Book was the only one missing.

Or did you miss the 21-5 record over the last couple years when Ayton hasn’t played?

Who cares? Are you really trying to say we're a better team with Ayton?

Reality is Sabonis is the VASTLY superior offensive player.

No, he's not. Sabonis is a nice scorer and rebounder. To say he's vastly superior from an offensive standpoint is ridiculous.

Definitely worse defensively than Ayton when Ayton is actually motivated. Only problem there is Ayton is only motivated probably 60% of the time.

Ayton asleep in bed is a better defender than Sabonis. Sabonis is all numbers, no filler.

You also conveniently ignore the fact that Ayton has actually proven himself in the playoffs. I tried finding Sabonis playoff stats but came up empty...

 

[Cheesebeef]

As we see here everyday, people can easily make many bad arguments. Ayton = Vucevic is one of them.


Seems like you're missing some color to this one as well...maybe you forget the lineups that were out there? It's not like Book was the only one missing.

I’m not missing anything. You’re talking about impact on winning. That was a PRIME TIME for Ayton to prove his stats have an impact on winning. Not only didn’t they do that, the team was ABYSMAL. He’s a number 1 pick, MAX player who had Bridges next to him and those guys both failed MISERABLY.

Who cares? Are you really trying to say we're a better team with Ayton?

I’m trying to show that Ayton’s impact on winning isn’t a slam dunk argument. He sure as hell made NO impact as a number 1 pick where somehow we lost MORE games with him the next season than we did the last despite his 18/11.

And we’ve seen over the years that the team consistently wins without him. He has played the last two season with 2 all-nba players and a deep team around him. At his PEAK, he absolutely makes a bigger impact in winning, but again his peak happens too few and far between to depend on.

No, he's not. Sabonis is a nice scorer and rebounder. To say he's vastly superior from an offensive standpoint is ridiculous.

This is ASSININE. Sabonis also averages 7 ASSISTS to Ayton’s 1.5.

So he’s a better scorer and VASTLY superior creator. One of the best big men in the league at doing so.

Ayton asleep in bed is a better defender than Sabonis. Sabonis is all numbers, no filler.

Unfortunately, Ayton seems asleep in his bed 40% of the time. And again, I have Ayton the edge here.

You also conveniently ignore the fact that Ayton has actually proven himself in the playoffs. I tried finding Sabonis playoff stats but came up empty...

I don’t ignore that. Ayton had one really good post-season… which in the grand scheme of things wasn’t even that impressive averaging 16/12 while playing good consistent defense. The reason everyone was so wowed by Ayton during that stretch was because he was actually consistent for a full month before he crapped the bed in the Finals.

And then got ABUSED against Dallas, a total liability on defense when they spread us out and was so pathetic that his ass was BENCHED in a Game 7.

Again, Sabonis hasn’t been surrounded by All-World talent, but what he’s done this season has shown he can play at a high level and take a previously bad team and lift them into the playoff picture. You conveniently ignore Ayton’s never done anything like that, while dismissing how much he utterly failed to raise the level of this team during that 5-17 stretch.

Reality is you consistently rate Ayton by his ceiling. Unfortunately he only reaches that at best 60% of the year.

Do I think Sabonis is MUCH better than Ayton? No. But it’s definitely an argument simply because of how much mediocre-bad Ayton shows up on the court.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

what he’s done this season has shown he can play at a high level and take a previously bad team and lift them into the playoff picture.

Cast the statue! He might get a team into the playoffs for the first time in 8 seasons isn't the flex you think it is. Yes, it would be ideal if Ayton were always locked in, but even his mercurial self is more valuable than Sabonis.

Ayton may be inconsistent, but Sabonis hasn't proven to be anything more than empty calories.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cast the statue! He might get a team into the playoffs for the first time in 8 seasons isn't the flex you think it is.

Chris, you’re really making yourself look like a fool. Sabonis was the leader of a Pacers team who got the 4 seed in the East in 2019. Was also a key member of their playoff team in 2017 and before you throw up “That was the East!” Excuse, again, as the leader of the a previously atrocious Kings team, has them with the 3rd best record in the West and about to lead another team to the playoffs. THIS season.

Yes, it would be ideal if Ayton were always locked in, but even his mercurial self is more valuable than Sabonis.

Yeah… coaches and players consistently think higher of Sabonis. Or are you just conveniently ignoring that Sabonis Is a 3 TIME ALL-STAR, once in the West. Remind me when coaches and players thought Ayton was worthy of that? Oh that’s right… never. I mean, again, you’re making yourself look like a fool.

Ayton may be inconsistent, but Sabonis hasn't proven to be anything more than empty calories.

You’re right. Taking multiple teams to the playoffs in both conferences while being deemed an all-star in both conferences by coaches and players totally shows how meaningless Sabonis is in the face of all of Ayton’s accolades and having one good 6 week stretch in his only two playoff appearances.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Chris, you’re really making yourself look like a fool. Sabonis was the leader of a Pacers team who got the 4 seed in the East in 2019. Was also a key member of their playoff team in 2017 and before you throw up “That was the East!” Excuse, again, as the leader of the a previously atrocious Kings team, has them with the 3rd best record in the West and about to lead another team to the playoffs. THIS season.

Damn...ESPN didn't have his playoff stats. Maybe it would have been better if they didn't. You really want to compare he and Ayton in the playoffs?

Damontas Sabonis Playoff Record | StatMuse

Domantas Sabonis is 6-14 in the playoffs in his career.

www.statmuse.com

YUCK!!!

Yeah… coaches and players consistently think higher of Sabonis. Or are you just conveniently ignoring that Sabonis Is a 3 TIME ALL-STAR, once in the West. Remind me when coaches and players thought Ayton was worthy of that? Oh that’s right… never. I mean, again, you’re making yourself look like a fool.

You're getting really worked up about this - I'm more impressed by post season performance than all star games.

You’re right. Taking multiple teams to the playoffs in both conferences while being deemed an all-star in both conferences by coaches and players totally shows how meaningless Sabonis is in the face of all of Ayton’s accolades and having one good 6 week stretch in his only two playoff appearances.

Ayton's one good six week stretch trumps anything Sabonis has done in his entire career. Ayton was nearly a key piece to a championship. Sabonis hasn't won ONE playoff round in 8 seasons.

Sabonis is having the better season so far, but we'll see what happens once the playoffs start. Furthermore, if I'm choosing one or the other to have a better career moving forward, my money is on Ayton. We'll see who is right. (Is this the part where I insult you or call you a fool?)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I mean...if you have to use 3 mvp candidate players (2 of which are multi MVP winners) as the initial metric then it sorta speaks to my point lol.
If the next tier down is KAT, Bam, Sabonis, Davis types then I think that's great company to be in.
I would describe that tier as "top" and the one above that as "elite".
Giannis and AD aren't centers so I wouldn't use them as comparisons in this regard.
Capella is a specialist type center like Gobert where they kinda have the luxury of not being asked to do much outside of control the paint.
Ayton gets the most criticism and least benefit of his peer group on this forum it seems.
Saying that roughly 3 names outside of the elite give him an occasional fit isn't a crazy indictment against him when they're probably raising their games in that match-up with him.
But every player has guys who aren't on their particular level that have good games against them.

I stopped reading at your first couple comments because you said “top tier” but now want to move the goalposts all over the place. I mean ALL over the place. Your initial comment wasn’t accurate. It’s okay to admit it. We all get proven wrong on here at times.