Calvin Pace

[Russ Smith]

I think we can agree that drafting for need, when your need is exceedingly thin in that draft, is always a bad idea. Pace may have been a good pick if you already had, say, Michael Strahan, playing on the other side, but for a team that was looking for a 10-sack guy was a horrible move.

Personally, I think that Boller is a bust in B-more because of what they gave up to get him. Don't you think that Boller would have contributed more to the Cards at this point than Pace has? You don't think that Boller would be starting here right now? Really?

.

Boller is only still starting because of how high he was picked and what they gave up to get him. They haven't tried to replace him.

Green didn't do that here he didn't pick Pace, and didn't care how high he was picked he went out and got Berry and then Okeafor to improve the team.

I saw Boller a lot at Cal, I knew his senior year was just so out of whack with his prior career that his rapid rise up the boards was iffy. I knew teams were too enamored with stuff like throwing from his knees and ignoring how unimpressive he was until his senior year. I would have never used a first rounder on him and had we picked him we'd probably have seen Green replace him last year.

I don't think Boller is ever going to be any good, I think Rodgers is a much better prospect even though he's not as fast , he's a much better QB who really got guilt by association because Boller has been so bad.

 

[joko4]

First round or fifth, it does not matter anymore. He had a super game, but it is to early to tell. Next week against the Chiefs wil be another test.
One thing, Calvin is going to come in 3rd and long or something like that. He will be the nickel back of pass rushers. He's not going to go up against the All-pro
LT, he'll match up with something less. Mark my word, Qb's will be nervous when
Bertran,Chike and Calvin are in the game. IT'S GOING TO BE FUN!
Chill out.

 

[dylanbw]

Osi Umenyiora

Russ,

For what it is worth, Osi Umenyiora was a definite force for the Giants the past two seasons. So much so, in fact, that Ernie Accorsi refused to include him in the Eli Manning deal with San Diego (which could have broken down negotiations all together). Osi would have been a nice selection, but I am certainly hopeful that Pace can still be a factor in our D-Line rotation this year.

Just an FYI.

Dylan

 

[spanky1]

Pace signed a six year contract and he is just entering his third year. He is 25 years of age this season. Berry signed a five year conract and is entering his second year. He will be 30 this season.

Why is this relevant......because with Pace we have two things: a) right now, he is a good rotational player who is growing both physically and mentally. It would be virtually impossible for Bertrand Berry to play every down consisdering we employ an attack, high motor type of defensive scheme and b) we have succession planning opportunities with Pace. I firmly believe that with Deek Pollard's coaching and Bertrand Berry's mentoring, Pace will become a very solid cog in the wheel "going forward".

To hang Pace because Mac drafted him in round 1 creating expectations that were grossly unfair is so typical of many Card fans. I for one am optimistic that we will have our LDE position in good hands for a long time.

Get rid of Pace......not IMHO. Think of him as a bust.....not IMHO.

 

[joeshmo]

Pace signed a six year contract and he is just entering his third year. He is 25 years of age this season. Berry signed a five year conract and is entering his second year. He will be 30 this season.

Why is this relevant......b) we have succession planning opportunities with Pace. I firmly believe that with Deek Pollard's coaching and Bertrand Berry's mentoring, Pace will become a very solid cog in the wheel "going forward".

Couple of things.

Pace signed a 5 year deal.

His contract ends in 2007 and Berrys ends in 2008. Pace will have to be re-signed if you really think he is apart of the succession planning. And dpending on how things go, Pace may want to go somewhere where he could start in 2008 becuase as long as Berry is their and healthy in 2008 Pace will not get that chance.

 

[BACH]

First round or fifth, it does not matter anymore. He had a super game, but it is to early to tell. Next week against the Chiefs wil be another test.
One thing, Calvin is going to come in 3rd and long or something like that. He will be the nickel back of pass rushers. He's not going to go up against the All-pro
LT, he'll match up with something less. Mark my word, Qb's will be nervous when
Bertran,Chike and Calvin are in the game. IT'S GOING TO BE FUN!
Chill out.

That was my whole point... Reach or no reach... It's history! Get over it!

I just don't understand why everything about Pace has to be so black or white?
Pace hasn't lived up to his 1st round status. I think everyone would agree to that, but why does that make him a terrible player not worthy of a roster spot? Why not be happy about Pace playing well instead of bashing him for his draft status.

BTW... Pretty irrelevant since I don't believe in a 100% corralation between sacks and quality of the player, but I have to mention it.

What exactly has Jerome McDougal and Michael Haynes done? Both were drafted ahead of Pace and have fewer sacks. Pace was in Green's doghouse last season and didn't get a lot of playing time. If Berry had been injured like Strahan Pace would have better stats than Osi Umenyiora - no doubt.

 

[kerouac9]

If Berry had been injured like Strahan Pace would have better stats than Osi Umenyiora - no doubt.

Ooohh... you had me up to here. I think that Osi and Pace play the same position, which happens to be on the other side of the line from where Strahan plays (like Julius Peppers and Chike Okeafor, Strahan is an RDE).

 

[Russ Smith]

Ooohh... you had me up to here. I think that Osi and Pace play the same position, which happens to be on the other side of the line from where Strahan plays (like Julius Peppers and Chike Okeafor, Strahan is an RDE).

Not sure, Osi is listed at RDE this year but if you look at last year you'll find he didn't start a game until one week after Strahan got injured. So at least last year it appears that it took Strahan getting hurt to get him PT, I don't know who was playing DE on the other side hard to tell from their stats. But it sure seems like a big coincidence that Osi began starting right after Strahan got hurt?

He clearly was better than Pace last year I don't disagree with that for a minute.

 

[BACH]

Ooohh... you had me up to here. I think that Osi and Pace play the same position, which happens to be on the other side of the line from where Strahan plays (like Julius Peppers and Chike Okeafor, Strahan is an RDE).

I know.. Was making that reference to the amount of playing time, not the side. Pace was terrible as a rookie, but so was Osi Umenyiora, who couldn't crack the stating line-up despite the fact the Giants didn't have anybody to play opposite Strahan after Kenny Holmes went PUP. Pace looked alot better last season than his rookie season, and my guess is that he would have ended with more sacks than Osi Umenyiora last season if he had the same amount of playing time.

Not saying Pace is better, because Osi Umenyiora was a force in the run game as well, but if you're purely comparing sacks Pace would have had more IMO

 

[CardLogic]

That was my whole point... Reach or no reach... It's history! Get over it!

Pace hasn't lived up to his 1st round status. I think everyone would agree to that, but why does that make him a terrible player not worthy of a roster spot? Why not be happy about Pace playing well instead of bashing him for his draft status.

Exactly!

 

[BigDavis75]

Ooohh... you had me up to here. I think that Osi and Pace play the same position, which happens to be on the other side of the line from where Strahan plays (like Julius Peppers and Chike Okeafor, Strahan is an RDE).

Peppers and Strahan play LE.

 

[BigDavis75]

If you'll recall we traded with the Saints who took Sullivan, arguably the biggest bust from that draft. If we hadn't traded we MAY have had the great interior D-Line of Sullivan and Wendell Bryant. It is just awful luck that Haynes and McDougle were taken in 2 of 3 picks before us. Pace is becoming a good player and I bet if he were a FA today teams would be throwing pretty big deals at him. That was a good draft regardless of what happened in the 1st round. BJ was an excellent pick and we also got Boldin, Reggie Wells, KK, and Hayes in that draft.

 

[kerouac9]

That was a good draft regardless of what happened in the 1st round. BJ was an excellent pick and we also got Boldin, Reggie Wells, KK, and Hayes in that draft.

1st, KK has played in what, 12 games in his career? He hasn't been much of a contributor.

Reggie Wells is a good 6th round draft pick, but he's still a fringe player.

Gerald Hayes has one start in his first two seasons.

We had the #6 overall pick in the draft, and we walked away with two solid players (Boldin and Johnson) and five fringe guys. That's hardly a good draft when we had the opportunity to pick up a playmaker like Leftwich, Suggs, or even Kevin Williams (who I hated on draft day and thought was overrated, but has put together a really nice little career).

Add to that that we could have traded the #6 to the Ravens (who really wanted Leftwich), moved down two spots, and still could have gotten Suggs and possibly also gotten Johnson in the second round, and that draft was a disaster.

If Pace were a FA today, there's no way that he would have gotten the money that we have already spent on Okeafor and Berry. He's still a 3rd tier DE and rotational player, at best.

 

[JeffGollin]

Osi Umenyiora was a definite force for the Giants the past two seasons
Seeing Dylanbw's post - I couldn't help but note the emergence of another member of the Jersey Cardinal crew.

Red Bank (the birthplace of Count Basie) is 7 miles from where I live and voted "hippest town in NJ."

Yo, Dylan - Did we ever welcome you as a newbie? If not (since newbies buy), I'd like a schooner of Red Bank Lager and a Portabello Burger from Basil T's.

 

[BigDavis75]

1st, KK has played in what, 12 games in his career? He hasn't been much of a contributor.

Reggie Wells is a good 6th round draft pick, but he's still a fringe player.

Gerald Hayes has one start in his first two seasons.

We had the #6 overall pick in the draft, and we walked away with two solid players (Boldin and Johnson) and five fringe guys. That's hardly a good draft when we had the opportunity to pick up a playmaker like Leftwich, Suggs, or even Kevin Williams (who I hated on draft day and thought was overrated, but has put together a really nice little career).

Add to that that we could have traded the #6 to the Ravens (who really wanted Leftwich), moved down two spots, and still could have gotten Suggs and possibly also gotten Johnson in the second round, and that draft was a disaster.

If Pace were a FA today, there's no way that he would have gotten the money that we have already spent on Okeafor and Berry. He's still a 3rd tier DE and rotational player, at best.

BJ is a starter, Boldin is a starter, Wells is a starter, and Hayes is a starter. Pace is a good contributor and KK can be too if he stays healthy.

 

[kerouac9]

BJ is a starter, Boldin is a starter, Wells is a starter, and Hayes is a starter. Pace is a good contributor and KK can be too if he stays healthy.

As we learned from Pace's rookie season, being a "starter" and being a "contributor" are two totally different things. Pace--a #1 pick--was only active for 14 games last season. BJ's solid. Boldin's good. Everyone else is fringe--especially Hayes--who hasn't done anything--and King, who can't stay healthy.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Everyone else is fringe--especially Hayes--who hasn't done anything--and King, who can't stay healthy.

Hayes was a steal in the third round. Almost every draft expert said that. He is the starter this year and was already making plays behind the line of scrimage on Saturday. Fringe??? Sometimes I wonder about you!

King is far from a fringe player if he stays healthy.

 

[BigDavis75]

As we learned from Pace's rookie season, being a "starter" and being a "contributor" are two totally different things. Pace--a #1 pick--was only active for 14 games last season. BJ's solid. Boldin's good. Everyone else is fringe--especially Hayes--who hasn't done anything--and King, who can't stay healthy.

Pace is a solid 3rd end who can step in and start if needed AKA a good contributor. We now have 4 starters out of that draft. Just for comparison let's look at the 2002 Draft. We have one player who is still on the team (Scobey). Let's look at 2001 2 Starters and two players remain on the team from that draft (Big and A-Dub). Should I keep going on the TJ draft for more emphasis?

 

[ajcardfan]

A lot of people thought Green was being unfair with Pace last year. But, I found it interesting that Pace, in this morning's papers, admitted that he did not work hard enough last year during the offseason. Particularly when it came to hitting the weights. Sounds like he rectified that problem.

 

[kerouac9]

Hayes was a steal in the third round. Almost every draft expert said that. He is the starter this year and was already making plays behind the line of scrimage on Saturday. Fringe??? Sometimes I wonder about you!

King is far from a fringe player if he stays healthy.

I don't think that a "third round steal" takes three years to crack the starting lineup behind a creaky Ronald McKinnon. But I may be wrong. Maybe he'll be good, but we didn't sign Orlando Huff this offseason for nothing.

If you doubt that he's a fringe player, look at TSN's roster analysis.

 

[football karma]

I don't think that a "third round steal" takes three years to crack the starting lineup behind a creaky Ronald McKinnon. But I may be wrong. Maybe he'll be good, but we didn't sign Orlando Huff this offseason for nothing.

If you doubt that he's a fringe player, look at TSN's roster analysis.

On "real" football teams, the way it works is that players drafted in rounds 3 through 7 apprentice for a couple years and then move into the starting lineup. Its the exception rather than the rule for 3rd rounders or later to start their first or second year on good football teams.

Just because Hayes hasnt started until this year doesnt make him a fringe player. The fact is, TSN has nothing to go on with a player like Hayes, and that assumes they even bothered to watch any tape of the Cardinals. At the same time, starting this year doesnt make him a great draft pick either, it just means he is not a bust. The same is true for Wells and King as well.

Charles Lee (wr) is a fringe player -- been in the league, has started and played enough to know that he isnt getting any better-- he is what he is-- depth, spot starter, role player. I am not ready to lump any of the lower round 2003 draft class still on the roster into that category yet.

 

[kerouac9]

And I'm not saying that the 2003 draft was the worst draft that the Cardinals ever orchestrated. I just still believe that The Trade remains an embarassment and black eye on the francise and the leadership of Dave McGinnis and Rod Graves (though admittedly The Trade seems to be an example of Graves giving McGinnis enough rope to hang himself), and that the selection of Calvin Pace at #17 overall was a tremenously stupid pick.

Unless Pace suddenly posts 8-12 sacks in each of the next two seasons, nothing is going to change that. The Cards have spent over $20 million in bonus money because Pace stinks (not counting his own signing bonus). Another 4.5 sacks and 14 starts next season isn't going to change that.

 

[Russ Smith]

A lot of people thought Green was being unfair with Pace last year. But, I found it interesting that Pace, in this morning's papers, admitted that he did not work hard enough last year during the offseason. Particularly when it came to hitting the weights. Sounds like he rectified that problem.

Yep, I was one who felt Green singled him out because he didn't draft him but in hindsight it's clear I was wrong and Green was right, and it's great that Calvin didn't pout and worked his way out of the doghouse.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

And I'm not saying that the 2003 draft was the worst draft that the Cardinals ever orchestrated. I just still believe that The Trade remains an embarassment and black eye on the francise and the leadership of Dave McGinnis and Rod Graves (though admittedly The Trade seems to be an example of Graves giving McGinnis enough rope to hang himself), and that the selection of Calvin Pace at #17 overall was a tremenously stupid pick.

Unless Pace suddenly posts 8-12 sacks in each of the next two seasons, nothing is going to change that. The Cards have spent over $20 million in bonus money because Pace stinks (not counting his own signing bonus). Another 4.5 sacks and 14 starts next season isn't going to change that.

Yeah he is no Lavar Fischer or Wendel Bryant!

Fact remains he wont get the playing time to put up the numbers it will take for you to not call him a colossal bust.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah he is no Lavar Fischer or Wendel Bryant!

Fact remains he wont get the playing time to put up the numbers it will take for you to not call him a colossal bust.

He could; all he would have to do is outplay the two players that we had to sign to replace his production because he's been so bad.